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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Al-Qaeda Has Read The Lie Behind the Lie Detector (Read 48570 times)
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Re: Al-Qaeda Has Read The Lie Behind the Lie Detec
Reply #15 - Jan 18th, 2006 at 1:44am
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"As to the argument you elude to:  It's currently the best we have at our disposal."

No where did I state that, you are atypical of the type persons that argue the case against polygaphics.  Misquote, take out of context. 

Yes I believe that polygraph is vulnerable to mistakes, and yes it is not true science, but to tell our enemies how to defeat it is next to aiding them in their plight.  And I choose not to answer any questions or respond further, I have stated my opinion.  If you feel yours is of higher quality, hang tight and be brave in your statements.  Don't misquote me.
  
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Re: Al-Qaeda Has Read The Lie Behind the Lie Detec
Reply #16 - Jan 18th, 2006 at 2:06am
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whylie wrote on Jan 18th, 2006 at 1:44am:
"As to the argument you elude to:  It's currently the best we have at our disposal."

No where did I state that, you are atypical of the type persons that argue the case against polygaphics.  Misquote, take out of context.  

Yes I believe that polygraph is vulnerable to mistakes, and yes it is not true science, but to tell our enemies how to defeat it is next to aiding them in their plight.  And I choose not to answer any questions or respond further, I have stated my opinion.  If you feel yours is of higher quality, hang tight and be brave in your statements.  Don't misquote me.


I did not quote you.  I stated "elude."  The exact statement  from you as quoted:
Quote:
So intenet on destroying the use of insturmentation to aid security of our country is of no concern,


Your quote would seem to lend credence to my statement.

This site does not provide information for belt-bomb construction, soft-targets, vulnerabilities within our national security (with the exception that polygraphy does not work as touted), or any information which would be truly detrimental to our nation if utilized by terrorist scum.

FYI, I do not feel that my opinion carries greater weight or value than your opinion.  I simply took the opportunity to call you on the broad and sweeping statements you made.

I do not understand the reasoning behind your desired continued use of polygraph testing when you state that polygraph is vulnerable to mistakes and is not true science.  If it doesn't work than it shouldn't be depended upon to the extent that it currently enjoys.

A quick thought about the argument that Antipolygraph.org has done such an unpardonable sin to our nation by providing information about polygraph testing's unreliability.  Well, perhaps every website that provides information about outdoor survival should be seen in the same light.  After all, don't some of the biggest names in terrorism sometimes live like survivalists?  Kind of skewered thinking isn't it?

If you would like feel free to respond.  My aim is not in one-upping you, but providing my point of view as you have provided your point of view.
  
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Re: Al-Qaeda Has Read The Lie Behind the Lie Detec
Reply #17 - Jan 18th, 2006 at 7:26pm
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Thanks for your clarification.  I will not debate polygraphics nor will I express any opinion regarding its use in national security.  I have no specific knowledge regarding the manner in which it may be used for national security.  My point regards the "possibility" that this site may have provided information to persons regarding how to lie and not get caught as relates to national security.  If there is a possibility this occurred because of this site's infomation provided to them, I disagree with that mission whether intentional or accidental.
  
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Re: Al-Qaeda Has Read The Lie Behind the Lie Detec
Reply #18 - Jan 20th, 2006 at 1:03pm
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whylie wrote on Jan 18th, 2006 at 7:26pm:
Thanks for your clarification.  I will not debate polygraphics nor will I express any opinion regarding its use in national security.  I have no specific knowledge regarding the manner in which it may be used for national security.  My point regards the "possibility" that this site may have provided information to persons regarding how to lie and not get caught as relates to national security.  If there is a possibility this occurred because of this site's infomation provided to them, I disagree with that mission whether intentional or accidental. 

What you seem to be either ignorant of or completely disregarding is that the polygraph as a method of detecting deception has no scientific basis whatsoever. 

When using such a flawed and inaccurate process to screen potential terrorists and/or questions terrorists already in custody, there is no reason to believe it becomes any more accurate simply because the stakes are higher.

In any polygraph examination where a conclusion is reached the end result will either be “No Deception Indicated” or “Deception Indicated.”  Neither conclusion offers any real information on the test subject.

“No Deception Indicated” means that the subject was telling the truth, or successfully used countermeasures, or was in fact being deceptive but registered as a “false negative”, which does happen since even the most ardent supporter of the polygraph will not claim they are 100% accurate.

“Deception Indicated” means that the subject was being deceptive, or was showing a stress reaction, or did a poor job of attempting countermeasures, or was in fact being truthful but registered as a “false positive.”

At the end of the test you truly have no more information that you would have had if you’d skipped the test and guessed instead.

The fact that our government chooses to utilize such a vague and inaccurate machine in the war against terror does not suddenly make the polygraph any better or more accurate.  The information on how a polygraph works is freely available at many places other than this web site, and anyone who has access to that information would, in my opinion, make an exceptionally poor subject. 

Since there is absolutely no way to tell how has seen that information and who has not, and since the polygraph requires the test subject to be ignorant of its procedures in order to have the slightest chance of eliciting a fear-induced confession (which is really the only possible positive outcome of a polygraph exam) I don’t see how any polygraph exams can have any credibility.
  

Lorsque vous utilisez un argumentum ad hominem, tout le monde sait que vous êtes intellectuellement faillite.
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Re: Al-Qaeda Has Read The Lie Behind the Lie Detec
Reply #19 - Jan 21st, 2006 at 2:13am
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Last sentence, "I don't see" and stop there.  Yes you are blinded by what you believe you know, and have no evidence regarding how this affects national security.  Again, I don't care to debate, just stated an opinion
  
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Re: Al-Qaeda Has Read The Lie Behind the Lie Detec
Reply #20 - Jan 21st, 2006 at 5:08am
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Whylie

Being a police officer and a person who knows the workings of the polygoof and our national security (police are a part of the Patriot Act. Or didn't you know that),the sargent has made an eloquent and intelligent post. You accuse him of "having no evidence of how this effects national security". I take it that you do or you are making a blind opinion. If you do have evidence then you have been misleading us by saying that you don't know enough to debate the poly.

I personally think you are a polygrapher taking a different approach trying to discredit this website and it's members. That's just a blind opinion of coarse. The fact that you don't want to debate sounds like another polygrapher that I labeled a "hit and run" poster quite some time ago. Keep making snide and rude remarks, as in your above post, and your stock will quickly drop. Just another blind opinion.

  
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Re: Al-Qaeda Has Read The Lie Behind the Lie Detec
Reply #21 - Jan 21st, 2006 at 6:00am
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I won't post any longer and will withdraw.  You are 100% correct, give all information to our advisaries and let the cards fall.
  
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Re: Al-Qaeda Has Read The Lie Behind the Lie Detector
Reply #22 - Mar 12th, 2008 at 5:22am
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Al-Qaeda has read, (more or less) understood, and summarized in Arabic the information on polygraph procedure and countermeasures presented in AntiPolygraph.org's free e-book, The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.

  Gee George, I almost sounds like you were grading your student's homework assignment !!!

Previously, AntiPolygraph.org has reported that an Al-Qaeda document titled Mawsu'at al-jihad (Encyclopedia of Jihad) includes a section on lie detectors that made it clear that Al-Qaeda understood that polygraphy is junk science. (See, Al-Qaeda Documentation on Lie Detection.)

  --- And you even offer them your terminology too !!!  It sounds like you take a great deal of pride in this as if you have compromised the polygraph------------ NOT !!!!


But a more recent article on the Al-Qaeda website www.tawhed.ws titled "Usturah jahaz kashf al-kidhb" (The Myth of the Lie Detector) goes further in explaining polygraph procedure, including an explanation of "control" questions as well as physical, mental, and behavioral countermeasures. It is unmistakaby clear that the primary (albeit unattributed) source for this article, which was originally published in the Dhu al-Qa'dah 1425 (December 2004) issue of al-Fath magazine, was The Lie Behind the Lie Detector. The article (in Arabic) is available here:

  ---- And who is one of the only people out there who could translate it for them ?  And who is known to have Iranian and other radical middle eastern contacts ? 


http://www.tawhed.ws/r?i=3165
U.S. policymakers who are still foolishly relying on the polygraph to assess the credibility of Al-Qaeda prisoners, suspects, and informants need to wake up and realize that the polygraph is utterly unreliable as a lie detector. Al-Qaeda knows it, and they know how to countermeasure it. 


-------AND Why do they know this ???  YOU George !!!!  And you go so far as to call out government foolish as well !!!  You had the Means, Motive, and Opportunity which are the basics of any crime.  That they would Attempt countermeasures is no less than partially laid at YOUR feet, if not completely. 

  Re: Al-Qaeda Has Read The Lie Behind the Lie Detec
Reply #1 - Jan 10th, 2006, 7:47am    Al-Fath magazine is an Arabic language publication of the Sunni insurgency in Iraq. The article, "Usturah jahaz kashf al-kidhb" (The Myth of the Lie Detector) is found at pp. 19-22 of the magazine's first issue, dated Dhu al-Qa'dah 1425 (December 2004), which is available as a zipped PDF file here:
  http://www.geocities.com/alfat7_mag_no1/ft-1.zip

----Sounds like you knew just where to look as if waiting for it's publicaton.  What grade would you give your efforts ???  I'll give you a "C" for Collaborator !!!   How about a "B" for Betrayal,  Maybe even an "A" for Anti-American !!  I think no less than a "D" though for Deralication of Duty !!!,    Perhaps in clarity an "F" for F*%(ing Traitor.
Your activities to my mind are pre-assasination Lee Harvey
Oswald-esque. 


  Re: Al-Qaeda Has Read The Lie Behind the Lie Detector  And who provided that opportunity  ? 

Reply #2 - Jan 10th, 2006, 9:37am    The index page on the website www.tawhed.ws where the HTML version of the article, "Usturah jahaz kashf al-kidhb" (The Myth of the Lie Detector) is listed, which provides links to this and other articles on intelligence and security matters, indicates that the article on the lie detector has been viewed more than 4,200 times:
http://www.tawhed.ws/c?i=44

The same page also indicates that the article has been downloaded (it's available as a zipped Microsoft Word document here) some 740 times. 

  So that's YOUR work viewed by Arabic / or Farsi speakers no less than 4,200 times, and downloaded no less than 740 times ?  How many of those would be an acceptable number to you should any of them be terrorists ? 

   Question:  If the U.S. Government could identify even one person known to be a foreign intelligence officer, terrorist, or enemy alian that you assisted in this work either verbal or written (ie; a defector who resided in Holland, or elsewhere you were known to be in Europe) then what would you regard as the proper punishment ? 

How far are you willing to go with all of this George ???  Do you personally have a HIGHER cause or purpose than to harm U.S. Intelligence in this one of it's protected tools  ?

Attempts Count Under The Law  !!!!!   Don't They ?????
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: Al-Qaeda Has Read The Lie Behind the Lie Detector
Reply #23 - Mar 12th, 2008 at 5:53am
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TheNoLieGuy4U,

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Moving on, while you may desperately wish that it were a crime to publicly tell the truth about polygraphy, it isn't. Regarding the ethical considerations involved, see my "Response to Paul Menges Concerning the Ethical Considerations of Providing Polygraph Countermeasures to the Public."

It's worth noting that the original Arabic language article that is the topic of this message thread, أسطورة جهاز كشف الكذب (The Myth of the Lie Detector), is still on-line and now has 12,972 views and 2,481 downloads.
  

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Re: Al-Qaeda Has Read The Lie Behind the Lie Detector
Reply #24 - Mar 13th, 2008 at 3:27am
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Twoblock, et al,

why is it that anyone who disagrees with the mantra of this board or who dare opposes your "enlightened" opinion MUST be a polygraph examiner in disguise?  "There they are again, trying to disrupt our indoctrination of the ignorant and unaware..."

While I am aware of the intent of this board, I am not aware of the motives George has towards Child Molesters and Terrorists.  I am not in a position to accuse him of wanting to disrupt national security or assist perverts beat the system.  Whether he hopes these people disprove the polygraph process as an accurate method of "catching" them, I do not know.  

I do know that this type of board assists in the promotion of confidence with some examinees when entering the suite.  It's actually funny.  I have coined a phrase called "the look."  This is the look I get when people I know have been searching the internet come in with some hightened level of confidence that they will beat me (They all have the same look, too!). 

By the time I get to testing, it's usually gone.  Why, because I explain things well enough they understand the procedure and know that any attempt to influence their charts will result in them being thrown out for non-cooperation (not good if you're an applicant or convicted sex offender).  But if not, the first time I catch them "playing around" in the test, they (usually) stop their behaviors and we get on with the process.

Sackett
  
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Re: Al-Qaeda Has Read The Lie Behind the Lie Detector
Reply #25 - Mar 13th, 2008 at 4:54am
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     Hello GM / Moderator,

  May I ask you politely and in plain English;  HAVE YOU PERSONALLY EVER TRANSLATED OR ASSISTED ANY PERSON IN THE TRANSLATION OF ANTI-POLYGRAPH MATERIALS OR LITERATURE INTO ARABIC, FARSI, OR ANY OTHER LANGUAGE ?  You have spoken about articles being translated in the third person, but were YOU ever involved in ANY of them.  OR are you saying that ALL of them were translated without YOU ?
  
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Re: Al-Qaeda Has Read The Lie Behind the Lie Detector
Reply #26 - Mar 13th, 2008 at 5:16am
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TheNoLieGuy4U,

I have not played any role in the translation of anything related to polygraphy to Arabic or Persian (Farsi). At some future point, polygraph information may be made available on AntiPolygraph.org in these and/or other languages. But it's not a priority. At present, the only language in addition to English in which we have any documentation is Spanish. (See the Spanish language poster on our Campus Poster Initiative page.)

And note that the article in al-Fath magazine is not a translation of any document on AntiPolygraph.org. It's a paraphrasing. And I had no role in the production of that, either.

You've peppered various message threads with scattered accusations that I have betrayed various oaths, and may well have broken certain laws. You've even suggested that I have committed the capital offense of treason. Why not start a new thread devoted to a full expression of your views on this topic? Perhaps you could title it, "Why George Maschke Should Be Put Up Against a Brick Wall and Shot!"

Wink
  

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Re: Al-Qaeda Has Read The Lie Behind the Lie Detector
Reply #27 - Mar 13th, 2008 at 6:29am
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        George,

   Thank You for your quick response in regard to written materials.  PART II;  Have you participated in verbal conversations in Arabic or Farsi about the subject of polygraph countermeasures with middle eastern individuals either there in The Hauge, or elsewhere ?

  In regard to your claim of my so called "Peppering" of my writings here, they really aren't that spicy.  I prefer just plain old steak and potatoes truth, and in reality have asked you to consider whether or not you could see how your former breatheran in the Intel community could and do see that you went too far, and also that your timing was the worst possible in the world.  Further, that if you had considered all of that you would see that your greatest victory of the polygraph you despise would have been that you possibly "Could Have" been hired anyway based on the needs of the nation you left behind. 

  If I woke up tommorow and found a job in the paper I wanted to apply for, and it required I have a very special background clearance utilizing brain fingerprinting, and I was told I was not chosen, would my life stop mid stream ? NO !!!  I would be no worse off than the day prior, just as you were able to finish your military reserve career.  I would not then spend an inordinate amount of my time at the expense of having a wife, family, and a normal life because of brain fingerprinting equipment !!!! 

  I am not your Judge or Jury about your oath and executed documents regarding both the spirit and binding measures those legal and moral and professional promises imply.  As previously stated, I bow to the system for that, and wanted to give you a wake up call that you have come to the edge, or some may see you as having gone past.  I have not advocated violence against you, and if you check that reference came from one of your own Anti-Poly cheerleaders.  I have merely pointed out to you that there are limits, and at some point a prosecutor looking at the totality of who you are, what / who you were, adn what you now represent;  May determine that you  1. Have ongoing foreign national contacts with the very nation that is the number one backer of terrorism against the United States, and some of it's soldiers have in fact killed our men in Iraq.  2.  That these relationships, beyond your U.N. work, have raised suspicion as to HOW the attempted compromising of a U.S. Intelligence tool is being carried out, as nobody seems to have the passion for it more than you.  3.  That  in our domestic front, you seek to compromise efforts to monitor and control the very worst of sex offenders who target our children, and who turn to YOU for assistance as not to be in their court ordered compliance. 
      The Means, Method(s), and Opportunity are the elements of proving any crime.  A jury via a U.S. Court room, should a prosecutor take the case, may be the proper venue to decide this.  It's not up to me, but rather those in power who choose to prioritize you or not.  Just don't pretend you have not considered all of this before.  As previously stated, I would settle for an administrative law judge to determine if you have earned a forfeiture of your military retirement.  I place my trust that the right thing will be done in the end.  Don't You ? 
     In closing let me say that I am greatful that you and I may have this site for point counter point, and that you have grown as a moderator in simply NOT banning me for introducing a new concept of thought to all of this, or shal we say a larger macro view of it.
     I really don't feel a new thread is needed, as your Anti folks, and the Pro folks, and those of us with parallel interests seem to be doing fine as things go day by day.
  
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Re: Al-Qaeda Has Read The Lie Behind the Lie Detector
Reply #28 - Mar 13th, 2008 at 7:28am
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TheNoLieGuy4U wrote on Mar 13th, 2008 at 6:29am:
        George,

   Thank You for your quick response in regard to written materials.  PART II;  Have you participated in verbal conversations in Arabic or Farsi about the subject of polygraph countermeasures with middle eastern individuals either there in The Hauge, or elsewhere ?


I don't see how that is any business of yours.

Quote:
  In regard to your claim of my so called "Peppering" of my writings here, they really aren't that spicy.  I prefer just plain old steak and potatoes truth, and in reality have asked you to consider whether or not you could see how your former breatheran in the Intel community could and do see that you went too far, and also that your timing was the worst possible in the world.  Further, that if you had considered all of that you would see that your greatest victory of the polygraph you despise would have been that you possibly "Could Have" been hired anyway based on the needs of the nation you left behind. 


I've hardly "left my nation behind." I'm a U.S. citizen. I return to the U.S. regularly, and will be returning permanently at the end of my overseas employment.

And you are mistaken in thinking that I co-founded AntiPolygraph.org out of embitterment over my personal plight. That's not the case. For four years after my FBI/LAPD polygraph experience, I kept silent and simply moved on. It was only much later, after learning that what happened to me was happening to many others that I felt compelled to speak publicly on polygraph policy. I don't desire a job with any intelligence agency, and would probably not accept one, if offered.

Quote:
  If I woke up tommorow and found a job in the paper I wanted to apply for, and it required I have a very special background clearance utilizing brain fingerprinting, and I was told I was not chosen, would my life stop mid stream ? NO !!!  I would be no worse off than the day prior, just as you were able to finish your military reserve career.  I would not then spend an inordinate amount of my time at the expense of having a wife, family, and a normal life because of brain fingerprinting equipment !!!! 


But what if you were denied the job because of a pseudoscientific fraud like polygraph screening? And wrongly (and permanently) branded as a liar by your government to boot? To judge the honesty and integrity of people based on voodoo science that depends on the examiner lying to and otherwise deceiving the examinee is unacceptable in a civil society. Perhaps you cannot fathom this because you personally profit from this pseudoscientific fraud.

Quote:
  I am not your Judge or Jury about your oath and executed documents regarding both the spirit and binding measures those legal and moral and professional promises imply.  As previously stated, I bow to the system for that, and wanted to give you a wake up call that you have come to the edge, or some may see you as having gone past.  I have not advocated violence against you, and if you check that reference came from one of your own Anti-Poly cheerleaders.


Well, you've suggested that you think I have committed a crime worthy of the death penalty. In another thread you wrote:

Quote:
Your betrayal of the U.S. Intel community is more like that of the Rosenbergs who did so as zealots for change, and they were quite properly executed for treason. By the way Treason has no statute of limitations.


You continue:

Quote:
  I have merely pointed out to you that there are limits, and at some point a prosecutor looking at the totality of who you are, what / who you were, adn what you now represent;  May determine that you  1. Have ongoing foreign national contacts with the very nation that is the number one backer of terrorism against the United States, and some of it's soldiers have in fact killed our men in Iraq.  2.  That these relationships, beyond your U.N. work, have raised suspicion as to HOW the attempted compromising of a U.S. Intelligence tool is being carried out, as nobody seems to have the passion for it more than you.  3.  That  in our domestic front, you seek to compromise efforts to monitor and control the very worst of sex offenders who target our children, and who turn to YOU for assistance as not to be in their court ordered compliance. 
      The Means, Method(s), and Opportunity are the elements of proving any crime.  A jury via a U.S. Court room, should a prosecutor take the case, may be the proper venue to decide this.  It's not up to me, but rather those in power who choose to prioritize you or not.  Just don't pretend you have not considered all of this before.  As previously stated, I would settle for an administrative law judge to determine if you have earned a forfeiture of your military retirement.  I place my trust that the right thing will be done in the end.  Don't You ? 


I suppose you're entitled to dream. I think you and too many polygraph operators confuse dissent for disloyalty, your personal interest for the public interest, and your job security for national security.

Quote:
     In closing let me say that I am greatful that you and I may have this site for point counter point, and that you have grown as a moderator in simply NOT banning me for introducing a new concept of thought to all of this, or shal we say a larger macro view of it.


AntiPolygraph.org has welcomed opposing viewpoints from the beginning. The same cannot be said of pro-polygraph websites such as PolygraphPlace.com.

Quote:
     I really don't feel a new thread is needed, as your Anti folks, and the Pro folks, and those of us with parallel interests seem to be doing fine as things go day by day. 


Suit yourself. I think it would be entertaining to read the indictment you would prepare were you appointed Chief Inquisitor.

Wink
« Last Edit: Mar 13th, 2008 at 7:57am by George W. Maschke »  

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Re: Al-Qaeda Has Read The Lie Behind the Lie Detector
Reply #29 - Mar 13th, 2008 at 8:11am
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Quote:
You've peppered various message threads with scattered accusations that I have betrayed various oaths, and may well have broken certain laws. You've even suggested that I have committed the capital offense of treason.


And he does so under an anonymous name, like some cowardly cur.
  

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