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I find myself agreeing with the Breeze for the first time here. I hunted waterfowl ONCE. After roasting up the day's game, I set down to enjoy a nice meal. Boy was I in for a surprise. Wild duck is downright gross. If I want duck, I'll stick to the mild Peking duck in a Chinese restaurant.

Supposedly, there is another type of shot that flies as well as lead but does not pollute. It's made of Tungsten, I believe. Only drawback is that it's EXPENSIVE as all hell.

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Although I haven't seen the programs he mentions, Doug Williams asserts that he has appeared on the following news-format tv shows and done precisely that:

CBS 60 MINUTES, NBC NIGHTLY NEWS WITH TOM BROKAW, CBS NIGHTWATCH, CNN WORLD NEWS, CNN HEADLINE NEWS, CNN WEEKEND, NBC DATELINE, FOX NEWS, MSNBC NEWS, ABC NEWS WITH SAM DONALDSON, AND NBC INSIDE EDITION.

You can view clips of some of these events here:

http://www.polygraph.com/media.html

I myself took much longer than 30 minutes to practice my countermeasures, but in retrospect it wasn't necessary. 30 minutes to one hour would suffice for anyone.

steincj,

I enjoyed reading your response.  Trust is the real issue here.  I think that because the polygraphers only work in their little box they fail to see the damage they do.

This year thousands of honest LE applicants will be told that they are liars, thieves, drug addicts.... .

Those thousands of applicants will then surve on juries,  and read papers describing LE abuses and misconduct- what do you think their response will be after they were betrayed?

Polygraph tests, that result in admissions, have been cited as the reason for their use.   What about the thousands of false positives?

Citizens have to trust that the authority that they have granted to LE is being used in an honorable and just fashion.  In the cases where honest people are stigmatized and unfairly judged, polygraphy is more than just a loose cannon of an investigative tool, it is the shovel that undermines faith in all LE.  The trust is broken.

I recently went to a LE interview.  In conversation, one of the officers explained to me that an officer recently video taped beating a suspect was not from his department, like some in the public thought. 

I told the pannel that it didn't matter what agency he was with.  They all gave me a sharp look.  I replied that every officer gets judged as the same,  regardless of the patch on his arm.   

I think that people join LE because they like responsibility and like being trusted and coming through for those who trust.   

But I can't think of one person in LE that I have ever met who said that they wanted to be a polygrapher.

I don't want to go off on a rant, but...

I am guessing that polygrapers are LE people who did not really fit in on the streets or couldn't handle cases.  Polygraphers seem very insulated, which leads me to believe that they forced themselves (or were forced)  into the polygraph box, because of an inabiliity to fit in anywhere else.

The childish responses from the pro-polygraph crowd add to my suspicion that they are juvenile in their mind set and not capable of a duty that has merit.

Its that mind-set that allows them to participate in something that amounts to bully type behavior.  Polygraphers don't care if thousands of applicants are unjustly accused, because, they don't care. 

They love to wag the finger, they crave to judge guilty, because deep down they feel as worthless as their test.   

I almost feel sorry for them... almost.. but then I am reminded of the PLCQT standard--  Lie on cue (control question) and your a good citizen. 

One could learn alot about lying from the polygrapher...








   

My goodness..let me see where to start.......

My Dear Fair_Chance:

I hope you do know that I hold you in great respect, and that I would never ever intentionally want to give you any sensations of being nipped in the rear by some shotgun blast.  ( Not only do I not own any guns, but I strongly oppose hunting and support gun control.  So, please, don't everyone start going off on that subject. )

As for Chris, I think he can attest that I would never harm him either.

Let me clarify if I can.  I do not consider you, Chris, or anyone else (including my friend batboy) to be stupid.  An act can be a stupid one even from an intelligent person.  

If I understand you correctly, your reasoning for choosing to NOT use countermeasures was a choice you made because you somehow consider the use of them to be unethical.  Am I correct?

I can see how you can believe that, and how others may feel the same way.  Am I automatically cynical and wrong because I do not view it the same as you do, or I disagree with your logic?  I beg to argue that in fact as long as honest responses are given in a polygraph exam, there does not exist any sound reasoning to consider countermeasures to be unethical.  In the end, my dear friends, only you yourself can measure what is ethical and what is not.  When you lay your head down on that pillow at night, you can either know in your heart that you have spoken the truth or that you have lied.

During the Salem witch hunts, I pray some of those people quickly learned that being falsely accused came with such damning outcomes that to use "countermeasures" if you will of "gaining religion" was not only self-preservation, but in fact the right thing to do.  Would we have more people be burned at the stake for the sake of calling ourselves ethical?  

I simply do not agree that use of countermeasures is unethical.

The_Breeze

Oh puhlease! Cynical?  My monkier is Seeker.  I seek knowledge and truth.  Period.  

When I believe the minister who tells me that I will go to hell and burn for all eternity if I don't strap on bombs and blow up innocent people, should I belive him?  Would I be cynical if I questioned things?  Hell, let's accuse Abraham of being a cynic.  His questioning of his community beliefs brough about the major religions of the world today.  I believe your label of me to be highly incorrect.

I completely understand civil service.  I find your attempt to equate that heroism to having ANY relevance to polygraph pre-screening use of countermeasures to be silly.

I made no attempt to belittle anyone.  I have a different view it seems from some of the others, but it is my view and I do not condemn them for having their views.  I stand on my belief that the use of CMs is NOT unethical, and that failure to educate oneself on the poly is simply a VERY POOR choice.

As for witnessing exams - I have witnessed several actually.  My information DOES NOT just come from these pages.  We can go tit for tat on providing examples of when the poly was accurate ( I cringe at even using that word since it is SOOOO inaccurate ), and when it was not.  This game could go on for the rest of our lives, and you know that.  

I have offered on this site more than once to prove that I could spend 30 minutes being taught countermeasures and pass a poly without detection of those CMs being used.  Care to take me up on that?  I am sure that if you would, I could easily find someone willing to teach me.

I believe ethics are the core character trait of a good person.  I find your classification of the use of countermeasures against a silly faliable toy as being unethical to be absurd.

Gino

Yes, oh yes.  Wild duck is absolutely horrid!  Bet you never get that taste out of your memory.

Dear Chris:

I do see your side, and I do understand how it fits into who you are.  I will refrain from cutting and pasting our conversation on this subject since I believe that discussion was one specific to your case and not to all who post here.  I simply disagree with your level of trust, and as we know, that trust is no longer as it was.  I have seen the pain of it, and I have seen what it has done to you.  I would rather see someone like you use countermeasures than to ever suffer as I have seen.  

As you know, I am fond of arguing with you, but in the end I believe we can appreciate our differing opinions.  I wish you well, as always.

sue_them

Broken trust has such a high price, doesn't it?

Regards,
Seeker

As I wrote earlier, I am attempting to get hired with a couple LE agencies.  I will have to lie on the polygraph in order to get hired.  That means I will have to use countermeasures in order to pass the polygrpah.  Well, I took the oral interview a couple days ago and I pass with flying colors.  I am now filling out the background packet and soon, I will take to polygraph.  I am going to post the results of the polygraph here.  If I pass, then we will all know that countermeasures work.  If I fail, then prehaps they do not or I did them wrong.  Stay tuned and we will see the results TLBTLD. 8)

I had my polygraph today and passed it using countermeasures.  The polygrapher used the CQT and I was able to identify the controls fairly easily.  I had to "less than perfectly honest" on one of the relevant questions and appearently, I was not deemed deceptive.  I have been waiting for this polygraph for many months now and I thank the people at www.antipolygraph.org for all the information.

No.  I did not use any meds at all.  All the advise I received suggested that I do not use them.  I used the behavioral countermeasures, anal pucker, and "exciting thoughts."  I had solid baseline breathing and remained calm during the relevant questions.   It was a nerve-recking experience and I hope I never have to do it again.  I already passed all the other steps of the hiring process so things look good.  I will have to meet with the Sheriff later but I am not concerned with that.

Ronin,

You write to treetop:

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This is not a question that should be posed to a lady or anybody else who possesses at least a smidgeon of brains and who has just smoked a poly...