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Re: Countermeasures
Reply #30 - May 22nd, 2003 at 6:03pm
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Indeed the eco heroes have reduced the use of lead in waterfowling, but we traditionalists are still free to return lead to the earth in upland bird hunting! (no one will eat duck twice anyway)


I find myself agreeing with the Breeze for the first time here. I hunted waterfowl ONCE. After roasting up the day's game, I set down to enjoy a nice meal. Boy was I in for a surprise. Wild duck is downright gross. If I want duck, I'll stick to the mild Peking duck in a Chinese restaurant.

Supposedly, there is another type of shot that flies as well as lead but does not pollute. It's made of Tungsten, I believe. Only drawback is that it's EXPENSIVE as all hell.
  
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Re: Countermeasures
Reply #31 - May 22nd, 2003 at 6:22pm
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Gino
Thanks for the endorsement of my veracity, if I was accurate in my assessment of Duck tasting like tenderloin of muskrat, perhaps everything I say should be regarded as the pillar of truth that it is!
What a perfect world that would be, huh Gino?

Polycop-thanks for the warning, but I do indeed know how the game is played around here. I have asked for proof myself numerous times which has never been produced.  Its ok, like a few other posters here I know my words have the ring of truth to those that may be sitting on the fence.  A diehard hater of the polygraph will never be convinced, and I really do not care to try.  Have a good one-
  
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Re: Countermeasures
Reply #32 - May 22nd, 2003 at 8:01pm
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Lets talk about countermeasures.  I have asked that people on this board demonstrate thier convictions and prove the assertion that someone with 30 minutes of instruction can wreak destruction on a polygraph test. I am mildly amused at a clock on the homepage. A clock should run next to it showing the amount of time spent dancing around the topic without proving that anti-polygraph agents can do this at will at an agency of thier choosing.


Although I haven't seen the programs he mentions, Doug Williams asserts that he has appeared on the following news-format tv shows and done precisely that:

CBS 60 MINUTES, NBC NIGHTLY NEWS WITH TOM BROKAW, CBS NIGHTWATCH, CNN WORLD NEWS, CNN HEADLINE NEWS, CNN WEEKEND, NBC DATELINE, FOX NEWS, MSNBC NEWS, ABC NEWS WITH SAM DONALDSON, AND NBC INSIDE EDITION.

You can view clips of some of these events here:

http://www.polygraph.com/media.html

I myself took much longer than 30 minutes to practice my countermeasures, but in retrospect it wasn't necessary. 30 minutes to one hour would suffice for anyone.
  

"It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government." ~ Thomas Paine
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Re: Countermeasures
Reply #33 - May 23rd, 2003 at 3:21am
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It seems that I have stirred a hornet's nest of opinions on this subject.  I will do my best to address them all.

Seeker,

Up until late last year, I did have an implicit trust of my government.  As I stated before, there are certain things that you just have to take for granted, and for me, it was faith in the FBI that they would treat me fairly and with respect.  I learned the hard way that they don't.  Sure you can tell me that hindsight is 20/20, and that I'm the fool for not researching the polygraph prior to taking it.  There are others on this site who held the same beliefs I did, and learned how terribly the FBI can burn you (Fair Chance, George, . . .).  It is a horrible feeling to be betrayed so, and for George and I, to not only be betrayed but also accused of espionage, an act punishable by death in the federal courts.  To be spun so violently by someone you trusted is a horrible feeling - something I wish on no one else.

I  don't agree with your view on what makes a good law enforcement officer.  I think you are confusing a keen investigative sense with the notion of service.  As many on this site have served, either in LE or Military, service people HAVE to trust implicity.  I know that I had to trust the guy I shared a foxhole with.  I may have met him that day, but I have to trust that he is willing to die for me as I am for him.  An LE officer has to trust the his partner will be there for him no matter what.   

I grew up the son of an LE officer, and I got to know each and every partner my dad had.  Though some may have had their personal problems, I knew I could trust them to take care of my dad, and the partners kids knew my dad would do the same.  And the LE officers knew that when they were in trouble, they could trust that the department would send back-up if requested, and never question if it was really needed.  And the SWAT sniper would trust that the order to take out a target was justified, even though he may not see a reason to kill.   

I argue that implicit trust is not only trained to LE and service members, it is part of who they are.  You have to trust those around you -- it is how we survive.
True, my inference that the FBI could be trusted just like I trusted the Army was my downfall.  But ask any service member who knows nothing about Federal LE about any of those agencies, and they will most likely tell you that they would offer the same amount of trust to them as they offer their own branch of service.   

Just because an LEO trusts his agency implicitly doesn't mean he has no knack for investigation.  Just the contrary -- the LEO who doesn't have to worry about watching his back because he knows his partner and his agency are watching it for him, that LEO is free to do that much more investigating, instead of covering his ass.

I know this utopia doesn't exist, but it is what our LE agencies should strive to have.



Poly-Cop,

If all of us here are so stubborn and adverse to change, why come back?  Why post?  Why waste your time, if we are so worthless?  I'm confused . . .



Breeze,

You know where I stand with the poly.  My hatred of the polygraph system lies solely in the PLCQT, the test in which countermeasures work best on.     Countermeasures might be detected, or might go undetected.  But no one will debate that they exist, that they are fairly easy to learn, and that they can go undetected.  Given that major flaw, and the NAS report's poor marks for PLCQT accuracy, shouldn't this test's days be numbered?



Gino, 

Never been bird hunting.  But if you want to talk about hunting bad Bosnians, I can chime in.



Fair Chance,

I could not have said what you wrote any better myself.  Bravo.   
12 hours for 3 tests?  I guess I was an anomoly.  My one test lasted 2 days -- 5 and a half hours the first day, and then I came back for 4 more the next.  I think it was an attempt by the polygrapher to continue to insult me by questioning my pariotism to the point that my blood was boiling so he would have the desired results on the chart.  Just a hunch . . .  Maybe blood temperature should be something recorded on the strip? (that's a joke people -- please don't send messages about 98.6 and all that, OK?)

Hope I discussed all the pertinent topics.

Chris
  
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Re: Countermeasures
Reply #34 - May 23rd, 2003 at 7:57am
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steincj,

I enjoyed reading your response.  Trust is the real issue here.  I think that because the polygraphers only work in their little box they fail to see the damage they do.

This year thousands of honest LE applicants will be told that they are liars, thieves, drug addicts.... .

Those thousands of applicants will then surve on juries,  and read papers describing LE abuses and misconduct- what do you think their response will be after they were betrayed?

Polygraph tests, that result in admissions, have been cited as the reason for their use.   What about the thousands of false positives?

Citizens have to trust that the authority that they have granted to LE is being used in an honorable and just fashion.  In the cases where honest people are stigmatized and unfairly judged, polygraphy is more than just a loose cannon of an investigative tool, it is the shovel that undermines faith in all LE.  The trust is broken.

I recently went to a LE interview.  In conversation, one of the officers explained to me that an officer recently video taped beating a suspect was not from his department, like some in the public thought. 

I told the pannel that it didn't matter what agency he was with.  They all gave me a sharp look.  I replied that every officer gets judged as the same,  regardless of the patch on his arm.   

I think that people join LE because they like responsibility and like being trusted and coming through for those who trust.   

But I can't think of one person in LE that I have ever met who said that they wanted to be a polygrapher.

I don't want to go off on a rant, but...

I am guessing that polygrapers are LE people who did not really fit in on the streets or couldn't handle cases.  Polygraphers seem very insulated, which leads me to believe that they forced themselves (or were forced)  into the polygraph box, because of an inabiliity to fit in anywhere else.

The childish responses from the pro-polygraph crowd add to my suspicion that they are juvenile in their mind set and not capable of a duty that has merit.

Its that mind-set that allows them to participate in something that amounts to bully type behavior.  Polygraphers don't care if thousands of applicants are unjustly accused, because, they don't care. 

They love to wag the finger, they crave to judge guilty, because deep down they feel as worthless as their test.   

I almost feel sorry for them... almost.. but then I am reminded of the PLCQT standard--  Lie on cue (control question) and your a good citizen. 

One could learn alot about lying from the polygrapher...








   

  
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Re: Countermeasures
Reply #35 - May 23rd, 2003 at 2:43pm
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Dear Suethem,

My first and third polygraph examiners in the FBI had good communciation skills in general and were probably fairly good interrogators with or without the polygraph prop.  They seemed skilled enough to work just about any LE position requiring detective work.

My second polygraph examiner would have fit your  description as possibly someone who was not good at communicating or interrogating.  He had a chip on his shoulder and definitely seemed to be "trophy" hunting.  He was very focused on impressing me with his superiority of mind and experience.  He reminded me of a dog that would bark all the time with his tail wagging.  His delivery did not match his message.  I sensed alot of insecurity.

Regards.
  
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Re: Countermeasures
Reply #36 - May 25th, 2003 at 1:43am
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My goodness..let me see where to start.......

My Dear Fair_Chance:

I hope you do know that I hold you in great respect, and that I would never ever intentionally want to give you any sensations of being nipped in the rear by some shotgun blast.  ( Not only do I not own any guns, but I strongly oppose hunting and support gun control.  So, please, don't everyone start going off on that subject. )

As for Chris, I think he can attest that I would never harm him either.

Let me clarify if I can.  I do not consider you, Chris, or anyone else (including my friend batboy) to be stupid.  An act can be a stupid one even from an intelligent person.  

If I understand you correctly, your reasoning for choosing to NOT use countermeasures was a choice you made because you somehow consider the use of them to be unethical.  Am I correct?

I can see how you can believe that, and how others may feel the same way.  Am I automatically cynical and wrong because I do not view it the same as you do, or I disagree with your logic?  I beg to argue that in fact as long as honest responses are given in a polygraph exam, there does not exist any sound reasoning to consider countermeasures to be unethical.  In the end, my dear friends, only you yourself can measure what is ethical and what is not.  When you lay your head down on that pillow at night, you can either know in your heart that you have spoken the truth or that you have lied.

During the Salem witch hunts, I pray some of those people quickly learned that being falsely accused came with such damning outcomes that to use "countermeasures" if you will of "gaining religion" was not only self-preservation, but in fact the right thing to do.  Would we have more people be burned at the stake for the sake of calling ourselves ethical?  

I simply do not agree that use of countermeasures is unethical.

The_Breeze

Oh puhlease! Cynical?  My monkier is Seeker.  I seek knowledge and truth.  Period.  

When I believe the minister who tells me that I will go to hell and burn for all eternity if I don't strap on bombs and blow up innocent people, should I belive him?  Would I be cynical if I questioned things?  Hell, let's accuse Abraham of being a cynic.  His questioning of his community beliefs brough about the major religions of the world today.  I believe your label of me to be highly incorrect.

I completely understand civil service.  I find your attempt to equate that heroism to having ANY relevance to polygraph pre-screening use of countermeasures to be silly.

I made no attempt to belittle anyone.  I have a different view it seems from some of the others, but it is my view and I do not condemn them for having their views.  I stand on my belief that the use of CMs is NOT unethical, and that failure to educate oneself on the poly is simply a VERY POOR choice.

As for witnessing exams - I have witnessed several actually.  My information DOES NOT just come from these pages.  We can go tit for tat on providing examples of when the poly was accurate ( I cringe at even using that word since it is SOOOO inaccurate ), and when it was not.  This game could go on for the rest of our lives, and you know that.  

I have offered on this site more than once to prove that I could spend 30 minutes being taught countermeasures and pass a poly without detection of those CMs being used.  Care to take me up on that?  I am sure that if you would, I could easily find someone willing to teach me.

I believe ethics are the core character trait of a good person.  I find your classification of the use of countermeasures against a silly faliable toy as being unethical to be absurd.

Gino

Yes, oh yes.  Wild duck is absolutely horrid!  Bet you never get that taste out of your memory.

Dear Chris:

I do see your side, and I do understand how it fits into who you are.  I will refrain from cutting and pasting our conversation on this subject since I believe that discussion was one specific to your case and not to all who post here.  I simply disagree with your level of trust, and as we know, that trust is no longer as it was.  I have seen the pain of it, and I have seen what it has done to you.  I would rather see someone like you use countermeasures than to ever suffer as I have seen.  

As you know, I am fond of arguing with you, but in the end I believe we can appreciate our differing opinions.  I wish you well, as always.

sue_them

Broken trust has such a high price, doesn't it?

Regards,
Seeker
« Last Edit: May 25th, 2003 at 7:45am by Seeker »  
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Re: Countermeasures
Reply #37 - May 25th, 2003 at 6:17am
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Dear Seeker,

I certainly did not take any offense at all.  I was trying to add little humor.  My hide is rather thick and even if it stung at all it did not draw any blood.

I was just trying to give a reference point on why an otherwise intelligent applicant would not tend to investigate polygraph exams ahead of time.

I have never thought of you as cynical.  The best discussions involve many people with passionate points of views.  You have been polite in your presentations and I enjoy your input to the ongoing discussions on this site.

I do not agree with the way that the FBI is using the polygraph in their pre-screening applicant program.  If the FBI is using the same "procedure" to "pre-screen" their trusted informants than I do not agree with it the same way.

I am just trying to figure out a way to improve the system within the system.  Polygraphs will not be banished in the near future, sorry to say.  The FBI has a surplus of applicants.  Congress would rather appear to do something even if it is wrong in the name of politics (reality check). I know why you are advocating countermeasures and I would surely not say you are wrong.   

I have been wronged by many people in my life but I try to counter it with a positive.  I will impact the FBI with my appeals and demonstrate to them that there is fault with the system in my case.   I might be a voice in the wildernes but I know I will be heard.

Regards.
  
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Re: Countermeasures
Reply #38 - Aug 22nd, 2003 at 5:16am
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As I wrote earlier, I am attempting to get hired with a couple LE agencies.  I will have to lie on the polygraph in order to get hired.  That means I will have to use countermeasures in order to pass the polygrpah.  Well, I took the oral interview a couple days ago and I pass with flying colors.  I am now filling out the background packet and soon, I will take to polygraph.  I am going to post the results of the polygraph here.  If I pass, then we will all know that countermeasures work.  If I fail, then prehaps they do not or I did them wrong.  Stay tuned and we will see the results TLBTLD. 8)
  
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Re: Countermeasures
Reply #39 - Aug 22nd, 2003 at 5:23am
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I bring forward this post as it died from the other forum and I really believe this is the truth, whatever "noble" souls justify the method / means / result that they "know" to be true.

For your reading pleasure and countermeasure ping-pong.

Aldo

Re: Polygraph is a fraud
« Reply #69 on: Aug 18th, 2003, 10:23pm »  Quote  Modify  Remove   


I really hate to say this, but it’s not cops getting jollies or protecting the street. Plain and simple, they found out there is a gold mine in internet entrapments where the “felon” knows good and well to fight it is likened to defending  religious beliefs during the Salem witch trails. Shut up, do your legal “bribery” and go about your business.  I know that the “city” where I was lead to has a statistically biased rate of “protecting” children from sexual predators. I am still working on the class action suite approach, but I need to wait for them to get really greedy for the almighty $$$.  Current calculations from that town would indicate around 13 million US citizens are sexual predators. And by the other stats I have seen, there should be 40,000,000 missing children per year in that case. 
 
Sad thing is the real offenders are more common sense I feel and are getting  by with it while others are placed into the system to line their pockets. 
 
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Re: Countermeasures
Reply #40 - Nov 22nd, 2003 at 6:08am
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I had my polygraph today and passed it using countermeasures.  The polygrapher used the CQT and I was able to identify the controls fairly easily.  I had to "less than perfectly honest" on one of the relevant questions and appearently, I was not deemed deceptive.  I have been waiting for this polygraph for many months now and I thank the people at www.antipolygraph.org for all the information.
  
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Re: Countermeasures
Reply #41 - Nov 22nd, 2003 at 7:26am
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treetop,

congrats on passing. did you end up using any meds in addition to the CM's?
  
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Re: Countermeasures
Reply #42 - Nov 22nd, 2003 at 7:36am
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No.  I did not use any meds at all.  All the advise I received suggested that I do not use them.  I used the behavioral countermeasures, anal pucker, and "exciting thoughts."  I had solid baseline breathing and remained calm during the relevant questions.   It was a nerve-recking experience and I hope I never have to do it again.  I already passed all the other steps of the hiring process so things look good.  I will have to meet with the Sheriff later but I am not concerned with that.
  
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Re: Countermeasures
Reply #43 - Nov 22nd, 2003 at 10:14am
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well congrats. which department are you applying with?
  
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Re: Countermeasures
Reply #44 - Nov 22nd, 2003 at 2:40pm
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Ronin,

You write to treetop:

Quote:
...well congrats. which department are you applying with?...


This is not a question that should be posed to a lady or anybody else who possesses at least a smidgeon of brains and who has just smoked a poly...
  
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