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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Countermeasures (Read 28129 times)
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Re: Countermeasures
Reply #15 - May 19th, 2003 at 9:08pm
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As I said earlier, I will be taking the polygraph in a couple months.  I will have to lie in order to not be disqualified and I will have to use countermeasures in order to get away with these lies.  I was no angel growing up and I made stupid decisions, however, I will not get the job if I tell the truth; I might get the job if I lie.  I would rather take my chances with the "might get the job" then to throw in the towel and tell the truth.  If countermeasures work, I will post it here.  If they do not work, I will post it here.  But, for those of you how say countermeasures do not work, if I pass the test, then your arguement will be proven wrong.  If I fail the test, then you were right or I did the countermeasures wrong.  As for me, I will keep reading about the polygraph and let time run its course.
  
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Re: Countermeasures
Reply #16 - May 20th, 2003 at 12:02am
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Ah, another honest lier about to set forth on a career journey.

Tree Top, your parents must be proud!

Well, when all else fails, lie baby lie!  Don't forget to teach that same philosophy to your kids.  You certainly wouldn't want them to be truthful with you if they didn't like the expected outcome.  After all, if it worked for daddy.....

Batman
  
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Re: Countermeasures
Reply #17 - May 20th, 2003 at 12:37am
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Batman,

Kids are not dumb.  If Americas best scientists say that the polygraph is BS, then why should anyone believe you when you say that it is not?

Is all science wrong now?

Is smoking good for you? Is the world flat?  

The real message is quite clear:

No, the polygraph is not scientifically sound, but LE likes to use it anyway.

What a great lesson to teach the kids-  

Lie on cue (control question)-      your a good citizen.

Lie when we dont want you to-    your a bad citizen.



  
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Re: Countermeasures
Reply #18 - May 20th, 2003 at 6:22am
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Batman wrote on May 20th, 2003 at 12:02am:
 Don't forget to teach that same philosophy to your kids.  You certainly wouldn't want them to be truthful with you if they didn't like the expected outcome.  After all, if it worked for daddy.....


Does anyone else get a completely uneasy feeling in their stomach reading the hypocrisy of Batman?  I seriously want to puke when I see you, of all people, Batman, talking about "doing the right thing" and "being honest."  What gives you the right to take the moral high ground?  Your blind faith in that unproven test on a misused machine gives you no authority to be a moral judge.  You ruin lives on a daily basis, justify it as "just doing your job" and "using only the results of the machine," and then put your head on your pillow at night with a clear conscience.  How you can do that is well beyond me, but if you can live with yourself, Batman, fine, do it.  But please stop the hypocrisy.  Your spewing words of morality is truly sickening.  Practice what you preach, Batman -- tell the truth the next time you administer a test, and see what results you get.

Treetop,

As much as I hate the polygraph system, I must say that your intent to circumvent the hiring standards of the agency with which you wish to be employed is appalling.  I personally am not in favor of the use of countermeasures; I would rather have the polygraph gone instead.   

But what gives you the right, Treetop, to make your own standards for this job you want?  What gives you the right to decide which standard you will adhere to and which you will break?  Why do you get to decide?   

Countermeasures are dangerous to the polygraph system, and your intended misuse of them is the main reason the polygraph should be done away with in total.   

You can't erase them pro-poly types, countermeasures are here to stay.  How the polygraph test can be considered accurate is beyond me.  But, you can't prove a negative, so the damned system must work, right?

I'm so happy the best and brightest in law enforcement have faith in the poly.  It just gives me a warm feeling inside.  In my stomach.  Like the one that I get when I read about Batman administering moral judgement.   

Chris
  
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Re: Countermeasures
Reply #19 - May 20th, 2003 at 12:52pm
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Chris:

While I agree that Treetop is incredibly erroneous in attempting to gain employement through fraud and deceit, I find it difficult to swallow most of your other assertions.

You state that use of countermeasures alone is the main reason to discontinue the use of the polygraph.  I tend to believe that the main reasons that polygraph use should be terminated are because, first, it is scientifically invalid.  Second, it has a horrific rate of accuracy.  Third, the very real threat to our national security based upon such fallible results alone demands immediate halt of this voodoo.  Fourth,  we are a nation who prides itself on justice, and this silliness is unjust.  Fifth, in being the greatest nation globally, I prefer to have the best and brightest, and most beneficial members of my society in law enforcement/intelligence agencies.  To that end, when some toy with the accuracy of Batboy's tea leaves and dysfuncional Magic 8 Ball determined who these cherished individuals will be, something is incredibly WRONG.  Countermeasure use is just so low-raking as cause for polygraph banishment in my humble opinion.

I cannot ever suggest that a person use countermeasures to conceal deceit.  However, I do not live in a bubble either, and I know that for every good tool or technology here, someone will develop a way to turn its purpose and utility against itself for the gain of negative results.  My difficulty comes in finding there to be enough utility in the use of the polygraph to even constitute it as a good tool.  I still have suspect feelings about the Brain Wave technology, and wonder if ever there comes a chance for things like countermeasures, administrator error, or other malfunction.  Where there exists human input, a margin of error surely must exist.

I also would never condemn or advise against a person using countermeasures when that person is indeed truthful in their answers.  This seems like a paradox, but it isn't.  When you go to take the SATs or other standardized tests that measure your ability, do you not, if you are wise, practice, take sample tests, improve your TEST TAKING skills?  Are you being dishonest then if you do in fact do these preparatory steps?  I see the polygraph no differently.  It is a "test" used to measure your fitness for a job, your level of character, your trustworthyness.  Now, just as the SAT cannot possibly measure your true academic ability, neither can the polygraph measure your veracity.

I would have to believe that use of countermeasures would be the norm from intelligent, dilligent and devoted applicants.

Regards,
Seeker
  
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Re: Countermeasures
Reply #20 - May 20th, 2003 at 7:41pm
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"I would have to believe that use of countermeasures would be the norm from intelligent, dilligent and devoted applicants."   Seeker, 20 May 2003

You forgot to add liars to your list!

Sorry, couldn't help myself.  I'm such a bad boy!

Batman
  
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Re: Countermeasures
Reply #21 - May 20th, 2003 at 8:25pm
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Batman wrote on May 20th, 2003 at 7:41pm:
"I would have to believe that use of countermeasures would be the norm from intelligent, dilligent and devoted applicants."   Seeker, 20 May 2003

You forgot to add liars to your list!


This from a professional liar. I guess it takes one to know one.
  

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Re: Countermeasures
Reply #22 - May 21st, 2003 at 9:04am
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Batman wrote on May 20th, 2003 at 7:41pm:
"I would have to believe that use of countermeasures would be the norm from intelligent, dilligent and devoted applicants."   Seeker, 20 May 2003

You forgot to add liars to your list!

Sorry, couldn't help myself.  I'm such a bad boy!


Batshit,

If you keep up the hypocritical bull, I will have puked on my keyboard so much it will become inoperable.  Then I won't be able to entertain the masses of antipolygraph.org with my humor and wit.  Now who will benefit if that happens, hmmm?

Seriously, you really need to step back and see how stupid your comments on "telling the truth" are.  Your profession is despicable, at least have the courtesy to keep your mouth shut on the subject.  But if you want to continue to destroy what little credibility you have, go right ahead and make your statements.  But let me ask this El Guano, is that why guys like you and Torpedo have to keep signing up on here with different screen names?   Destroy the credibility of one name and come back as somebody new?  You are so pathetic . . . .

And Seeker,

As you know, I am no fan of the polygraph.  There are many reasons for the polygraph system to be eradicated.  But in my mind, the only way to get through to the thick skulled believers in the polygraph is with cold fact.  Sure the polygraph is inaccurate, but they won't believe it.  Some scientists debunk the poly, while others laud it.  And they believe it is no threat to national security because it provides results.  Of course, we will never know how well the polygraph actually does providing those results, because, as we all know, you can't prove a negative.  So thick-headed, results-oriented, bureaucratic morons won't change, because even though all the aforementioned info is damaging to the polygraph, it isn't enough to take it down.
The only way to eradicate the entire polygraph system, in my opinion, is to uncover a major flaw.  A flaw so damaging that the system is rendered useless.  Countermeasures are that flaw.  With enough exposure, countermeasures can destroy the entire polygraph system.

And Seeker, I am discouraged by your comment that even El Guano had to write about it -- "use of countermeasures would be the norm from intelligent, dilligent and devoted applicants."  I once was a diligent, devoted applicant (the intelligent portion is still open for discussion), and it was not the norm for me to learn about countermeasures.  I had complete faith in my government and the fair treatment I would get in the applicatiopn process.  I was completely unaware that I was about to be betrayed.  
I never knew that I would have to be decietful, whether for noble or evil purpose, to pass a polygraph.  In fact deceit is the last thing an uassuming individual thinks about when taking a poly.  YOu say prepping for a poly should be like prepping for the SAT.  See, an SAT is a test of learned information, information that can be reviewed prior to the test in order to improve your score.  The polygraph "test" covers your life experiences, how do you prepare for that?  Sit around a campfire and tell stories?  Does Kaplan offer an polygraph "test" review course?  It is tough to compare a scholastic knowledge test to a life experience test.
So I have to disagree with your comments on the devoted applicant.  Unless you think I wasn't devoted enough, then I guess you may be right.  But I sure felt devoted, giving 8 months of my life in preparation for Quantico, only to have them wasted by a misguided polygrapher . . . 

Chris
« Last Edit: May 22nd, 2003 at 6:47am by steincj »  
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Re: Countermeasures
Reply #23 - May 21st, 2003 at 6:10pm
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Chris
Your right to make the point about CM use not being part and parcel of an applicants bag of pre employment tricks.  To some, this is an archaic concept-  personal ethics are more important than possibly prevailing while committing an ethical violation.
We have disagreed in our view of the plygraphs utility.  I have seen it work many times when the facts would not have been discovered any other way, and you have had a bad result during an applicant process.
Your message on ethics is still intact, and it sets you apart from the average poster here.
  
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Re: Countermeasures
Reply #24 - May 21st, 2003 at 8:44pm
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Chris,

I thought you and I were starting to become friends.  I'm hurt by your personal attacks, and shocked by your referencing me as "Batshit".  How crude, you should be ashamed, however, keep it up, you're almost in my league for crassness.  I'm proud of your progress.

However, since my very first post on this site, as a guest, I have always used 'Batman'.  I have never posted as anyone else, or under any other name.  Now I know that as a polygrapher I am considered a professional liar, low life, scum, etc..., but I have only, always, and will continue to be......

Batman
  
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Re: Countermeasures
Reply #25 - May 22nd, 2003 at 8:22am
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All,

There are times on this site when I feel like an island.  I feel like my views are just so different from everyone else's.  But one thing I do know is that my views are my views, and they are not going to change on anyone's behalf.  So if you don't like what I say, ignore me.

Breeze,

Good to see you back into the discussion!  As you know, I do believe that there is good that can be done with the poly.  The GKT is a proven test, and it should be used as part of the complete investigative process.  Having said that, the PLCQT is an utter joke of a "test," which is completely susceptible to corruption due to countermeasures.

So my views on the polygraph may not be as biased as you think.  I will have you know that if given the chance to sit for another polygraph, I would NOT use countermeasures.  I had and continue to have nothing to hide.  However, I would feel guilty as all hell during the test, because of my knowledge of the secrets behind the PLCQT.  After having read the pro-polygraph propoganda posted by some here, I am forced to feeling guilt for my knowledge, like I know secrets that I shouldn't know, and that these secrets are just as damaging as countermeasures themselves.  Knowing these secrets is a mental countermeasure, and that is enough to change the outcome of the test.  As crazy as it sounds, I would feel guilty sitting for another polygraph because my knowledge would be a countermeasure in itself -- no puckering needed.  But I thank you for your kind words regarding my ethics.  I know I am not alone in my view about pre-polygraph research -- I felt no need to prepare for the polygraph.

I was just leaving the Army, a government job, looking to go to the FBI.  In the Army, it doesn't take long before you realize how the system is set up.  Basically, men can make all the mistakes they want, because there are 47,000 regulations and codes to govern and correct any problems that they may make.  It is good, in a way, because there is a sense of security, because even though you feel like some people might be out to harm you, somewhere, buried deep in codes and regulations, is protection.  It gave each worker a comforting sense of security in their government and the Army (and on a bad note, made it nearly impossible to discharge a bad apple).  But having this sense of security in the Army, I thought that I might find the same in another government agency, the FBI.  When I was told that all I had to do for my polygraph was sit down and tell the truth, I believed it.  And if something went wrong, I felt I would have 29,000 methods of recourse.  Never once did I think the FBI would betray me, blacklist me, and hang me out to dry.  But the safety and security that I felt with the Army wasn't there with the FBI.  Not only did I have no recourse, but I also was admonished for my post-test words of displeasure.  

Today, I no longer have the faith in the government that I once had.  Had I lost that faith prior to my polygraph, I might have researched the poly and learned about it's flaws.  But would I have felt guilty for having known the polygraph's dirty little secret prior to taking one?  Who knows . . . .

And to you, El Guano,

Friends?  You thought we were freinds?  I wouldn't say that we are drinking buddies.  Too much beer makes me puke on my own, with you there, I'd have permanent peristalsis.

I think we gained a mutual respect for each other.  True, we don't see eye to eye, but we are not as diametrically opposed as you are with ohters on this site (see my above response to The Breeze on how I feel the poly should be used).

Having said all that, I did give you, El Guano, fair warning, that your comments were unappreciated.  I have a distaste for all things polygraph, even though I do believe there may be a use for it.  My personal experience with the polygraph has made me distrust its operators.  I certainly know I was lied to by my polygrapher during my "test."  

So I attacked you because your comments were, in my eyes, hypocritical.  I would hope that, if you do have more respect or view me differently than others on this site, you might take my words to heart.

Chris     

PS -- And El Guano, I don't think you ever changed your screen name, but I know your good buddy Torpedo has done it on occasion.  Haven't heard from Torpedo of late, who is he now?   
 
  
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Re: Countermeasures
Reply #26 - May 22nd, 2003 at 11:30am
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The_Breeze wrote on May 21st, 2003 at 6:10pm:
Chris
Your right to make the point about CM use not being part and parcel of an applicants bag of pre employment tricks.  To some, this is an archaic concept-  personal ethics are more important than possibly prevailing while committing an ethical violation.
We have disagreed in our view of the plygraphs utility.  I have seen it work many times when the facts would not have been discovered any other way, and you have had a bad result during an applicant process.
Your message on ethics is still intact, and it sets you apart from the average poster here.


The_Breeze

Yes, Chris Stein's integrity and ethics are indeed refreshing, even if a bit misguided.   Law enforcement/intelligence agents should indeed be morally accountable, ethical, and have high integrity.  Should they also be flat out stupid in there along with that higher ground?

Look, I won't even argue on utility.  An officer wants a poly to use in an investigation, and I am right there behind him/her  in pushing for it.  However, pre-employment screening is simply harmful, as well as useless, as it requires a validity that simply DOES NOT exist.

Now, having said that, how would it be anything but practical and wise to further one's interviewing skills by employing countermeasures?  Just HOW is it an ethical violation to use countermeasures if you are indeed that intelligent, moral, ethical, and honest person?  You seem to equate it to CHEATING.  That is simply unrealistic and unfair.  It would be cheating if you were being dishonest in your responses.

I find this amusing, since the King of misinformation, dishonest, deception, and unethical practices is the polygraph!

Funny, we sit and nod and high five the polygraph examiner for lying to manipulate an examinee to illicit a confession, claim it is ethical to do such by rationalizing that the examanee is a criminal, but never once sit back and see the disgusting ugly side of those actions used to gain that confession.   

An applicant comes in and gets a false positive, and of course, the justification is that they were hiding something, that they were somehow unfit for the job.  Best case stituations, a concession is made that the machine is not always right, and once in a very very blue moon, we allow the applicant to withstand another abusive exam, maybe even three if they seem to be the masochist types.

Tell me The_Breeze, Sir, with all respect, how, HOW is this ethical?  How does this fit into the standard of integrity and morality?  How does this fit into your assertion that use of countermeasures somehow are "unethical"?

Regards,
Seeker
  
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Re: Countermeasures
Reply #27 - May 22nd, 2003 at 2:12pm
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Dear Seeker,

Ouch!  A couple of those OO shotgun ball bearings nipped me in the rear-end (and I hope it was friendly fire and they were made of stainless steel, even game cannot be shot with lead anymore!).  I cannot speak for Chris but after reading many of his postings, I think he would go through ten more exams if given the chance to win against this flawed system.

You know I do not like the polygraph but I do understand Chris's intent and motivation.

I have withstood almost twelve hours of polygraph exams over three exams.  I am not a crazy person, just determined to not allow a flawed system to claim me as a victim. 

I type very quickly and do not sweat my grammer on this website but I consider myself fairly educated after taking over 240 college credit hours in biology, physics, chemistry, electronics, and electrical courses over my lifetime so far (with more to come).

Not only did I not use countermeasures during any of my exams, I specifically discussed the NAS report with my examiner before the third exam.

I will answer all applicant questions truthfully to the best of my ability and then I will hold the agency to the fire and insist that they do their best to ensure that I am treated fairly.  If I feel I am being wronged, I will appeal it until I get a satisfactory answer (even if it takes years).  I am not rich but this method has worked well for me over my life-time.

I have found that the best way to try and change a flawed system is to exert constant pressure over a long period of time.  I have rarely changed the course more than a few degrees but the larger the ship, the longer it takes.

The best military and law enforcement officers are unwaivering in there perception of right and wrong.  Any deviation from these personal beliefs normally leads to the path of the "Dark Side of the Force".  I believe that Chris's perception of "the right thing to do" agrees with mine.  Are we "smart"? Maybe not as far as passing a polygraph pre-screening test, but it is a value system we have lived by and most probably will die by.

Regards
  
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Re: Countermeasures
Reply #28 - May 22nd, 2003 at 5:29pm
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Fair Chance
Indeed the eco heroes have reduced the use of lead in waterfowling, but we traditionalists are still free to return lead to the earth in upland bird hunting! (no one will eat duck twice anyway)

That correction aside, I hope you are doing well.  Like you, I find seekers attitude quite cynical.  It is always hard for someone outside this field to understand the prevaling mentality of law enforcement officers.  Taking CS to task for being idealistic illustrates this completely.  I dare say that was me when I originally applied for federal service (a long time ago) and probably you as well.
Im glad I believed, and there is no doubt in my mind that its preferable to being a cynic.  Ask yourself seeker, why would a young person volunteer for hazardous duty, get to clean up barf in the back of thier unit, enter homes when someone is trying to kill them, get punctured with needles during a search, or a dozen other unpleasantries: except for the fact that they are idealistic and unquestioning in some regards.  Without that quality, which you seem to find pathetic, the job would not get done.
Same goes for soldiers making nothing financially.  You should be glad such a mindset exists, and I guess I support your misguided attempt to belittle those that think this way.
And Seeker, just how many polygraphs have you witnessed, or does your information only come from these pages? I could show you dozens of applicants that have completed backgrounds, that have lied on thier applications, failed specific areas of the polygraph test that you are certain does not work, and then make specific, provable admissions.  What exactly can you show me, except a strong belief system without
direct knowledge?
Lets talk about countermeasures.  I have asked that people on this board demonstrate thier convictions and prove the assertion that someone with 30 minutes of instruction can wreak destruction on a polygraph test. I am mildly amused at a clock on the homepage. A clock should run next to it showing the amount of time spent dancing around the topic without proving that anti-polygraph agents can do this at will at an agency of thier choosing.  I say applicants are caught routinely, and know this to be true from seeing the charts and witnessing the confrontation.  What exactly have you witnessed?
And I believe CM's are unethical (and I know you think ethics are a quaint, far off notion) because an applicant should be judged on overall merit.  Its not the same as dressing nice as one idiot posted a while back, its an attempt to place data into an application process that does not exist.  I consider that no different than trying to produce a different pathology, leaving off jobs from an application where you stole from your employer, or getting a phony degree.  As far as the abuses and lying thats alleged on these pages, I can only say this: NOT AT MY AGENCY.
  
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Re: Countermeasures
Reply #29 - May 22nd, 2003 at 5:57pm
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The_Breeze wrote on May 22nd, 2003 at 5:29pm:
I could show you dozens of applicants that have completed backgrounds, that have lied on thier applications, failed specific areas of the polygraph test that you are certain does not work, and then make specific, provable admissions..


Breeze,

Be careful here.  I have come to learn that the typical response of these people to your statement above, is, "Okay show us your 'dozens of applicants.'  We want names, dates, times, and places of exams," etc.  Of course you cannot ethically or legally provide that information and they know it.  So therefore from their self supported point of view, you MUST be lying and therefore their position is further reinforced.

Breeze, you will never will here.  After all, that is why they call it, "Anti-polygraph.org."

Poly-Cop

  
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