Hey, all. I have a scenario I need help with.

6 years ago, I committed a sexual offense, and was convicted. I touched my step-daughter inappropriately on her butt. DA offered me a year in county as a condition of 3 years probation. Being guilty and acknowledging my wrongdoing, I took it. Judge jumped the plea deal, gave me 4 in prison, 6 on probation (bifurcated sentence - Wisconsin law) on a first-time offense (meaning that I'd never even had a speeding ticket before). Judge's reasoning was that I had other victims, and where he got this idea, neither myself nor the prosecution knows.... supposedly, I molested an older cousin when I was young (when the detectives later asked said cousin, she denied anything ever occurred - and it's in a detective's report, black and white), a brother I never had (I only have sisters), a younger neice who physically could not have been the age the judge said she was when I supposedly molested her (and who vehemently denies I ever touched her) and an older sister, who was actually sitting in court on my behalf (along with the aforementioned niece and cousin), trying in vain to tell the judge that he was WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. Anywhoo, it's an appeal-able issue, and yes, I'm appealing my sentence structure.

So, I take the occasional poly for maintenance purposes. I pass them, because I do nothing wrong, and I know how to prevent false-positives, thanks to valuable info on this site. I am considered low risk by every measure, and enjoy freedoms most other offenders do not enjoy because I am doing well.

I have two children from a previous marriage - one teen, one pre-teen. I have not been able to see or even contact them due to probation and parole rules. However, I was recently told that I can have have contact with them, as long as I pass a Sexual History Polygraph.

For those that don't know, this type of polygraph is strictly voluntary in Wisconsin. It is not a court or probation rules mandated affair, unlike the maintenance polygraphs. I can take it if I want, or not. Considering what is at stake, I am strongly thinking about doing so, for two reasons: I have nothing to hide, and I know I can prevent a false positive. My probation agent wants to know if there are any other instances of sexually inappropriate contact with anyone that they aren't aware of during the course of my life. 

HOWEVER... I want the results... both the polygrapher's report, and the polygram. I want these things for Family court, and possibly as an instrument of proof of innocence, so to speak, in my appeal of my sentence on the issue of the other supposed 'victims'. Polygraph results in appeals is a very murky issue, but I'd be happy to blaze the trail if it means a reduction is my sentence. But, I know of several instances where polys have been used in visitation or custody cases.

My agent says that he will only accept the results from the polygrapher that the local probation office uses, and no other polygrapher. When I asked why, he said "cuz we know the guy". Probation and Parole absolutely will not honor any other polygrapher's results, I was told.  I told my agent that since this is voluntary, and not being done through their contract with the polygrapher, that I want the results. I was told I can't have the results because they don't own the copy of the results (about as nonsensical of an answer as one could ever possibly give). I reminded my agent that I'm paying for the poly out of my own pocket, that I have to travel to the polygrapher's office some 60 miles away to take the 'test', and actually present the money on my own, and that it has NOTHING TO DO WITH THEIR CONTRACT WITH THE GUY, but I was told emphatically that I will absolutely not get the results, see the report, see the polygram, ect... I will only be told if I 'pass' or 'fail'.

I have yet to contact 'their' polygrapher to ask about this on my own. Seems like a lost cause, but I might do it, just to cover my bases, possibly get something on record.

I have the option of going to court on the visitation issue, at which point either I or probation, or a GAL may suggest a polygraph - at which point, the results would be court record, and I have all the access to them I want, regardless of my probation agent's posturing. Also, my divorce judge is also the same judge who sentenced me and who would hear my initial appeal on my sentence... which is my way of sneaking the 'i didn't touch other people' passed-polygraph info into his brain regardless of whether poly results are allowed in appeals or not.

But I really loathe the idea of using 'their' poly guy. I'd like this poly to be as independent as possible (if their ever was such a thging). Even though I can prevent false-positives, and I'd be telling the truth on the poly, god only knows what could happen with 'their' guy at the helm... and regardless of who ends up doing my poly, I want the results for court and/or 'independent' review, come what may. The fact that they will only honor 'their' poly guy's results is very worrisome and telling. I don't think they want anyone, at any time ever, to be able to review or question either the methods or technique, let alone the results, of their poly guy. It could open the door to question every 'failed' test ever administered at my local probation office, perhaps? 

Anyway, I want an independent poly guy, and the results of my poly. Anyone see a way to get there? Have any advice or legal pointers? Ever seen a situation like this, or can point me to someone who can help me?

Ex Member wrote on Jan 6^th, 2016 at 6:20pm:



Couple things... I have sucessfully completed treatment, and never was a sexual history polygraph required. This poly is 100 percent voluntary, with zero consequence for not taking it (other than not seeing my kids) No minimization of my crime, either - grabbed my step-daughter's butt twice in a 10 - minute time span. The prosecutor (that bastion of conservative views on sex crimes, snicker ) stated on the record, at my sentencing, that my crime was 'a case of inappropriate touching where the defendant didn't know he went too far'. It is in the transcript, and will be brought up in the appeal.

Taking a poly with a different PCSOT examiner has it's merits, but I like the idea of using their guy as a condition in my family court case, for a few reasons - one, by using it as a part of an active court case, the results would be court record, which I have access to, two, my divorce/sentencing judge (one and the same) would be aware of my passed poly result, in preparation for my appeal, and either way the poly goes, I'd have what I wanted to have an independant guy refute a failed test/affirm a passed one.

Doing it twice- using my own guy, then using theirs- is costly and ineffective, unless I'm doing it with a purpose that suits my cause.

Also, I am 100% confident in my ability to prevent a false-positive. 

Anyone know of any precedent in this area?

MagicSteve,

I have a considerable amount of PCSOT experience.

You said: "Even though I can prevent false-positives, and I'd be telling the truth..."

In a nutshell, you're toast.

PCSOT is a racket, in my opinion, but let that go. 

Second opinions on a SO polygraph "test"? Forget about it. The DOC makes the rules. 

If your story is true, I suggest you resign yourself to counting down the days of your sentence.

Polygraph ain't science -- it's religion.

FWIW, try taking your treatment seriously. 

Ex Member wrote on Jan 6^th, 2016 at 8:58pm:



A few things.... treatment has been statistically proven to be a wash, with no discernible difference in recidivism rates between the treated and the non. As for noticeable or detectable use of counter-measures, no polygrapher in the world can detect mental counter-measures. I'm safe there. And, for those who are slightly confused as to Wisconsin SOT/Poly procedures, you have to pass one poly to complete treatment - and a maintenance poly counts as your one poly. And, my sexual history poly is not a heightened-awareness, high-stakes affair; I take it, and if I fail, I take it again if/and/or when I choose. This is the opposite of high pressure, in fact. Nothing gets taken away if I fail... i don't lose my freedom... no restrictions are placed on me... this is 100% completely my call.

But, I won't fail. The other part of the reason I want the results so bad is to force the poly guy to give me a fair assessment. If I have no access to the results, he could say I failed, even when I didn't - and no one could know the difference. With the results being available for further review, their poly guy would theoretically be forced to give a fair assessment of my chart. He can't just say whatever he wants, when the chart will not back it up.

Dan Mangan wrote on Jan 7^th, 2016 at 2:36pm:



Thank you for your honest response. I can certainly look into that.

It doesn't take 'prowess' to prevent a false positive. One doesn't even need to do anything. Just the full knowledge that the poly is crap, that examiners lie, and innocence is plenty enough to pass. I've seen  it done pretty much that way dozens of times, even with people who I knew were lying. Confidence is key. If you know you will pass, you will pass. People fear what they do not know, and you should fear nothing in terms of the poly. I know poly's like I know my own name. Knowledge of procedures, tactics, science (or lack thereof) and history is 'counter-measure' enough.

As for examiners being 'asleep at the wheel'... do you think anything i've said about myself, or 'my' case has been fact? All of it - or none of it - may be true, either of me or anyone else. I'm not an imbecile, just looking for info on an issue that may or may not even be specifically relevant to whatever I have written about on this site. Remember how, in my initial post, I gave you a 'scenario' that i wanted to run by you all? There was a logistical reason for that.

Would it surprise you to find out that I don't even live where 'I' said I do? And, for all of my knowledge and ability to determine loopholes in the rules pertaining to the DOC and sex offenders, and laws pertaining to polys and family court, would it surprise you to learn that I'm in a legal profession, working on behalf of someone else?

Not only polygraphers can disseminate to accomplish a goal.

Quote:

You might start with sharpening yours to realize there is no difference between "butt grabbing" and inserting your finger into a vagina.

Ex Member wrote on Jan 7^th, 2016 at 5:15pm:


About a decade in state prison's difference, depending on the age of the victim. Also, the mental state of the offender... butt grabbing, as it were, could be constituted as a grooming behavior, whilst vaginal penetration would never be seen in the same light. Different approaches, both legally and therapeutically. Different risk-factors, different risk groups, so on and so forth. Does not matter what jurisdiction.

Even in therapeutic circles, as in treatment groups, there is a difference. It is widely acknowledged that not all victims of various crimes (or even the same crime) suffer in quite the same way. I know of one offender who called himself a monster in one treatment group, saying that his inappropriate touch crime was on par with an offender who anally raped a 3 year old boy while holding a sword to his throat... His therapist scolded him in front of the whole group, acknowledging that while his crime was immoral, it lessened the scope and severity of the other guy's crime to say that his touch crime was on par, and lessened the impact of the penetration crime.

Butt grabbing and vaginal penetration? Apples and oranges. Read case law, look  at sentence structures. Single offense offenders vs. long-term offenders, even in the same sub group, are treated differently. The scenario I proffered? The initial purported sentence - virtually probation - is actually on par with the norm for that type of crime. If it had been a vaginal penetration scenario, then the minimum would have been 3 years in. There is actually a matrix the judges use to calculate these things. If the scenario had involved multiple 'butt - touchings' over a period of time? Then, the sentence the scenario defendant received might have been appropriate, had the 'defendant' had a prior criminal history. Other factors, like age of the offender at first contact, come into play, as well.
Lots of variables that make 'butt grabbing' and vaginal penetration quite a bit different. Probation agents, judges, lawyers, therapists - they know. the law, as in statutes, recognize this. Even members of the community, when fully appraised of facts and details of cases, scratch their heads at the current witch-hunt type laws. I have helped and seen enough of these type of offenders reintegrate into society to know. Experience makes the best teacher, does it not?

Here is a comparison that I can make that is valid. Saying that 'butt touching' and vaginal penetration is the same is equal to saying that all child sex offenders are pedophiles. 

I guess that an individual who knows what he/she is talking about, and uses facts to support logical arguments, is egocentric? Strange world we live in. No wonder people hate lawyers! Whether I was an offender or not, the information would still be valid. It would be less valid if I were an offender? That is illogical. I have dealt with offenders who deal with scorn because they educate themselves. Knowledge is power, so I guess that an offender that knows what we do is a danger or is self centered/entitled/egocentric or is minimizing? He is somehow a danger or isn't taking his treatment seriously? Anyone who knows about current therapy models for SO's knows that beating them down is no longer appropriate. In a nutshell, the mode of operation is 'You are good people who did a bad thing - let's find out why', or 'Your crime is a symptom of a larger problem in your life - let's fix that problem'. So, by educating themselves, offenders are helping themselves. It's all cognitive, folks. Thinking errors. Most offenders aren't lifelong criminals. Thinking or believing that because offenders are smart, and know the ropes, that they are manipulating or not serious about recovery is ridiculous... especially coming from a polygraph examiner, whose job it is to deceive people. That's distorted as hell. 

You, Mr. Mangan (according to treatment models), are in your cycle, and are a greater risk to offend than most offenders I have dealt with. You willingly lie and deceive people, using justifications to make what you do acceptable. You would be viewed as egocentric and would be at least a moderate risk by most statistical models used to gauge risk (COPMAS assessments, Static-99 and the like) because of your unrepentant ways. You claim to know the wrong in what you do, yet you still do it. Offenders, with low impulse control, share the same characteristics. Not saying you are a SO, but I'm making the valid comparison to show you exactly how two people, with similar distortions, are viewed differently just because one person made an immoral mistake. ONE MISTAKE... yet you choose to be immoral as a career, and you are better than the guys who made one mistake, and work hard as hell to correct their behaviors?

I have not said anything in this post that is not true and is not otherwise accepted by law enforcement/social workers/the DOC/therapists/lawyers at large.

To cap that, I proclaim polygraphs to be fraudulent and nonsensical (staying on topic, of course).

MagicSteve, go to the "Recommended Reading" page of my web site www.polygraphman.com, follow all four links,  and then tell me how my practice is immoral.

Moreover, I tell all of prospective clients up front, when they call, that polygraph is a crap shoot, has no proven scientific basis, and can be defeated by following simple instructions freely available on the internet.

My practice is based on supply and demand. It's that simple. 

When it comes to polygraph, I strongly believe that an informed consumer is better served than an ignorant one.