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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Sexual History Poly - need advice! (Read 11220 times)
MagicSteve
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Sexual History Poly - need advice!
Jan 6th, 2016 at 2:38pm
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Hey, all. I have a scenario I need help with.

6 years ago, I committed a sexual offense, and was convicted. I touched my step-daughter inappropriately on her butt. DA offered me a year in county as a condition of 3 years probation. Being guilty and acknowledging my wrongdoing, I took it. Judge jumped the plea deal, gave me 4 in prison, 6 on probation (bifurcated sentence - Wisconsin law) on a first-time offense (meaning that I'd never even had a speeding ticket before). Judge's reasoning was that I had other victims, and where he got this idea, neither myself nor the prosecution knows.... supposedly, I molested an older cousin when I was young (when the detectives later asked said cousin, she denied anything ever occurred - and it's in a detective's report, black and white), a brother I never had (I only have sisters), a younger neice who physically could not have been the age the judge said she was when I supposedly molested her (and who vehemently denies I ever touched her) and an older sister, who was actually sitting in court on my behalf (along with the aforementioned niece and cousin), trying in vain to tell the judge that he was WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. Anywhoo, it's an appeal-able issue, and yes, I'm appealing my sentence structure.

So, I take the occasional poly for maintenance purposes. I pass them, because I do nothing wrong, and I know how to prevent false-positives, thanks to valuable info on this site. I am considered low risk by every measure, and enjoy freedoms most other offenders do not enjoy because I am doing well.

I have two children from a previous marriage - one teen, one pre-teen. I have not been able to see or even contact them due to probation and parole rules. However, I was recently told that I can have have contact with them, as long as I pass a Sexual History Polygraph.

For those that don't know, this type of polygraph is strictly voluntary in Wisconsin. It is not a court or probation rules mandated affair, unlike the maintenance polygraphs. I can take it if I want, or not. Considering what is at stake, I am strongly thinking about doing so, for two reasons: I have nothing to hide, and I know I can prevent a false positive. My probation agent wants to know if there are any other instances of sexually inappropriate contact with anyone that they aren't aware of during the course of my life.

HOWEVER... I want the results... both the polygrapher's report, and the polygram. I want these things for Family court, and possibly as an instrument of proof of innocence, so to speak, in my appeal of my sentence on the issue of the other supposed 'victims'. Polygraph results in appeals is a very murky issue, but I'd be happy to blaze the trail if it means a reduction is my sentence. But, I know of several instances where polys have been used in visitation or custody cases.

My agent says that he will only accept the results from the polygrapher that the local probation office uses, and no other polygrapher. When I asked why, he said "cuz we know the guy". Probation and Parole absolutely will not honor any other polygrapher's results, I was told.  I told my agent that since this is voluntary, and not being done through their contract with the polygrapher, that I want the results. I was told I can't have the results because they don't own the copy of the results (about as nonsensical of an answer as one could ever possibly give). I reminded my agent that I'm paying for the poly out of my own pocket, that I have to travel to the polygrapher's office some 60 miles away to take the 'test', and actually present the money on my own, and that it has NOTHING TO DO WITH THEIR CONTRACT WITH THE GUY, but I was told emphatically that I will absolutely not get the results, see the report, see the polygram, ect... I will only be told if I 'pass' or 'fail'.

I have yet to contact 'their' polygrapher to ask about this on my own. Seems like a lost cause, but I might do it, just to cover my bases, possibly get something on record.

I have the option of going to court on the visitation issue, at which point either I or probation, or a GAL may suggest a polygraph - at which point, the results would be court record, and I have all the access to them I want, regardless of my probation agent's posturing. Also, my divorce judge is also the same judge who sentenced me and who would hear my initial appeal on my sentence... which is my way of sneaking the 'i didn't touch other people' passed-polygraph info into his brain regardless of whether poly results are allowed in appeals or not.

But I really loathe the idea of using 'their' poly guy. I'd like this poly to be as independent as possible (if their ever was such a thging). Even though I can prevent false-positives, and I'd be telling the truth on the poly, god only knows what could happen with 'their' guy at the helm... and regardless of who ends up doing my poly, I want the results for court and/or 'independent' review, come what may. The fact that they will only honor 'their' poly guy's results is very worrisome and telling. I don't think they want anyone, at any time ever, to be able to review or question either the methods or technique, let alone the results, of their poly guy. It could open the door to question every 'failed' test ever administered at my local probation office, perhaps?

Anyway, I want an independent poly guy, and the results of my poly. Anyone see a way to get there? Have any advice or legal pointers? Ever seen a situation like this, or can point me to someone who can help me?
  
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Re: Sexual History Poly - need advice!
Reply #1 - Jan 6th, 2016 at 6:20pm
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My agent says that he will only accept the results from the polygrapher that the local probation office uses, and no other polygrapher. When I asked why, he said "cuz we know the guy".


*Joe McCarthy, sound familiar?

MagicSteve,

I am puzzled that the judge would give you such a harsh sentence and not require you to undergo sex offender treatment, which would have involved a Sexual History polygraph exam. Your minimizing of the sexual assault as "inappropriate butt touching" seems to indicate that you could benefit from therapy. I think this would carry more weight in allowing visitation. In fact, someone saying that you could have visitation by simply passing a sexual history exam seems strange to me.

That being said, most on this website would dissuade you from submitting to polygraph testing as it may not help you and even make things worse.

However, to answer your request for help: you could hire a competent examiner to give you a sexual history exam. It would have to be with someone who is certified to conduct PCSOT. You could keep the results for yourself. If they are unfavorable, then you could just forget the whole matter. If they are favorable, you could use them to rebut the conclusions of their polygraph examiner should the results be diverse. If you go this route, I would advise against any kind of efforts to manipulate the charts; if caught in a review, it will be most counterproductive. A note of caution: your contracted examiner will most likely maintain confidentiality since you are the paying party--but bear in mind, that this person could be subpoenaed to testify at your intended appeal.

If all else fails, you could release the Kraken and send Joe up their way!
« Last Edit: Jan 6th, 2016 at 8:41pm by Ex Member »  
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MagicSteve
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Re: Sexual History Poly - need advice!
Reply #2 - Jan 6th, 2016 at 8:45pm
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Ex Member wrote on Jan 6th, 2016 at 6:20pm:
Quote:
My agent says that he will only accept the results from the polygrapher that the local probation office uses, and no other polygrapher. When I asked why, he said "cuz we know the guy".


*Joe McCarthy, sound familiar?

MagicSteve,

I am puzzled that the judge would give you such a harsh sentence and not require you to undergo sex offender treatment, which would have involved a Sexual History polygraph exam. Your minimizing of the sexual assault as "inappropriate butt touching" seems to indicate that you could benefit from therapy. I think this would carry more weight in allowing visitation. In fact, someone saying that you could have visitation by simply passing a sexual history exam seems strange to me.

That being said, most on this website would dissuade you from submitting to polygraph testing as it may not help you and even make things worse.

However, to answer your request for help: you could hire a competent examiner to give you a sexual history exam. It would have to be with someone who is certified to conduct PCSOT. You could keep the results for yourself. If they are unfavorable, then you could just forget the whole matter. If they are favorable, you could use them to rebut the conclusions of their polygraph examiner should the results be diverse. A note of caution: your contracted examiner will most likely maintain confidentiality since you are the paying party--but bear in mind, that this person could be subpoenaed to testify in your intended appeal.

If all else fails, you could release the Kraken and send Joe up their way!



Couple things... I have sucessfully completed treatment, and never was a sexual history polygraph required. This poly is 100 percent voluntary, with zero consequence for not taking it (other than not seeing my kids) No minimization of my crime, either - grabbed my step-daughter's butt twice in a 10 - minute time span. The prosecutor (that bastion of conservative views on sex crimes, snicker ) stated on the record, at my sentencing, that my crime was 'a case of inappropriate touching where the defendant didn't know he went too far'. It is in the transcript, and will be brought up in the appeal.

Taking a poly with a different PCSOT examiner has it's merits, but I like the idea of using their guy as a condition in my family court case, for a few reasons - one, by using it as a part of an active court case, the results would be court record, which I have access to, two, my divorce/sentencing judge (one and the same) would be aware of my passed poly result, in preparation for my appeal, and either way the poly goes, I'd have what I wanted to have an independant guy refute a failed test/affirm a passed one.

Doing it twice- using my own guy, then using theirs- is costly and ineffective, unless I'm doing it with a purpose that suits my cause.

Also, I am 100% confident in my ability to prevent a false-positive.

Anyone know of any precedent in this area?
  
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Re: Sexual History Poly - need advice!
Reply #3 - Jan 6th, 2016 at 8:58pm
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Wisconsin does seem to do things differently. I wonder how effective their treatment program is overall? If it has demonstrated efficacy, it could support the argument against polygraph usage in the treatment model.

Your ability to prevent a false positive will not help you if your attempts at purposeful non cooperation are detected (everybody slips up once in a while). Being able to point to specific events of PNC, could make all your plans moot. During routine maintenance exams, it's not so important. But, this would be a high stakes exam with elevated visibility. Good luck with it, I hope you get to see your kids.

P.S. I reemphasize that most would dissuade you from taking the polygraph, which is my position as well.
« Last Edit: Jan 6th, 2016 at 11:09pm by Ex Member »  
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Dan Mangan
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Re: Sexual History Poly - need advice!
Reply #4 - Jan 7th, 2016 at 12:09am
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MagicSteve,

I have a considerable amount of PCSOT experience.

You said: "Even though I can prevent false-positives, and I'd be telling the truth..."

In a nutshell, you're toast.

PCSOT is a racket, in my opinion, but let that go.

Second opinions on a SO polygraph "test"? Forget about it. The DOC makes the rules.

If your story is true, I suggest you resign yourself to counting down the days of your sentence.

Polygraph ain't science -- it's religion.

FWIW, try taking your treatment seriously.
  
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MagicSteve
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Re: Sexual History Poly - need advice!
Reply #5 - Jan 7th, 2016 at 12:10pm
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Dan Mangan wrote on Jan 7th, 2016 at 12:09am:
FWIW, try taking your treatment seriously.


I see what you are saying about the poly in general, but what in the name of all that's good and right makes you think I haven't taken my treatment seriously? I have completed it, twice! You don't know anything about me as a person, the details of my case, or the true changes I have made as a person to prevent myself from ever being in a position, on a cognitive level, to do anything of that sort again. I must say, that was insulting, and for no reason.

I think that persons on this site take too much of a radical approach. Yes, polys are a racket. Yes, they are fraudulent. I get that, 100%. But, do you have kids? Are you being told that you can't see them unless you pass a poly? Unless I can do some legal maneuvering, I'm stuck doing a poly in order to see them. As a father, and as a human being who knows and understands the responsibility of taking care of his responsibilities, I can do no less than to do whatever I need to do to be in a position to take care of what needs to be taken care of. I will take this poly at some point - that is a fact. I'm asking for ideas to make this as much in my favor as I can. The typical 'polys are BAD... AVOID THEM' approach is not needed. I already know they are bad, and that they should be avoided... but I cannot avoid this. I have a responsibility as a parent. Hard-liners, and those who wish to form opinions on incomplete information (like the guy I quoted), step aside, please. With the wealth of knowledge on this site, and the incredibly intelligent folks on this site, I expected more than the typical approach I see on here. I must say, I am disappointed.

There are those of us - people in my position, people taking maintenance polys, people applying for alphabet soup organization jobs - who MUST take polys. 'Avoid it' is not an option. As a fellow human being, who is mired in the stupidity that is law enforcement's reliance on this 'test' and who has been woken up to the reality of the poly, I'm requesting assistance from those similarly situated. I'm not trying to avoid responsibility, or cheat my way out of anything. I'm not guilty of anything other than poor judgement 7 years ago, and I paid a too heavy price for that mistake, that lapse in judgment. I am trying to do what's right as a human being by being there for my kids, and trying to find a way to use the poly to my advantage in a necessary appeal of a sentence. there are certain legal mechanisms  in place to avoid injustice, and I am exercising one of them to fix a gross injustice - and trying to use their own fraudulent 'test' to do so, in the process. With all the hard-liners on here, I'd figure at least a few of them would salivate at the possibility of using their own fraud against them to right a wrong.

I misjudged, much like the guy I quoted.... and I must say, spoken like a true polygrapher.That is exactly the approach I'd expect you to take. The DOC doesn't make the rules, the courts do. If I make the poly a condition/part of my family court case, then I have access to the results, because the results will be submitted to the judge, the opposing party, the GAL, you name it. 'Oh, he passed' or 'Oh, he failed' won't suffice... there will need to be documentation... and once that documentation is brought forth? It is court record - and I have unfettered legal access to it. Nothing the DOC can do. And, the DOC can't restrict my access to the courts, at all, on any issue whatsoever.

I need sharp minds, not closed ones.
  
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MagicSteve
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Re: Sexual History Poly - need advice!
Reply #6 - Jan 7th, 2016 at 1:20pm
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Ex Member wrote on Jan 6th, 2016 at 8:58pm:
Wisconsin does seem to do things differently. I wonder how effective their treatment program is overall? If it has demonstrated efficacy, it could support the argument against polygraph usage in the treatment model.

Your ability to prevent a false positive will not help you if your attempts at purposeful non cooperation are detected (everybody slips up once in a while). Being able to point to specific events of PNC, could make all your plans moot. During routine maintenance exams, it's not so important. But, this would be a high stakes exam with elevated visibility. Good luck with it, I hope you get to see your kids.

P.S. I reemphasize that most would dissuade you from taking the polygraph, which is my position as well.



A few things.... treatment has been statistically proven to be a wash, with no discernible difference in recidivism rates between the treated and the non. As for noticeable or detectable use of counter-measures, no polygrapher in the world can detect mental counter-measures. I'm safe there. And, for those who are slightly confused as to Wisconsin SOT/Poly procedures, you have to pass one poly to complete treatment - and a maintenance poly counts as your one poly. And, my sexual history poly is not a heightened-awareness, high-stakes affair; I take it, and if I fail, I take it again if/and/or when I choose. This is the opposite of high pressure, in fact. Nothing gets taken away if I fail... i don't lose my freedom... no restrictions are placed on me... this is 100% completely my call.

But, I won't fail. The other part of the reason I want the results so bad is to force the poly guy to give me a fair assessment. If I have no access to the results, he could say I failed, even when I didn't - and no one could know the difference. With the results being available for further review, their poly guy would theoretically be forced to give a fair assessment of my chart. He can't just say whatever he wants, when the chart will not back it up.
  
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Re: Sexual History Poly - need advice!
Reply #7 - Jan 7th, 2016 at 2:36pm
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MagicSteve, if you're adamant about getting a self-sponsored sexual history exam with full access to all of the data, start by reaching out to PCSOT examiners in your state. 

Here's a link to the Wisconsin listing on PolygraphPlace.com: http://www.polygraphplace.com/docs/c-15-s-Wisconsin-examiners.html#Brookfield

It's possible you may find an examiner who's asleep at the wheel and not monitoring this site, as your claims of countermeasure prowess will certainly work against you.

If you can make your way to NH, I'd administer a sexual history exam -- which often ends up as a battery of individual polygraph tests -- and provide you with the full package of supporting documentation, charts, video, etc.

You would need to explore the logistics well ahead of time, as such testing is time consuming, expensive and stressful.
  
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MagicSteve
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Re: Sexual History Poly - need advice!
Reply #8 - Jan 7th, 2016 at 3:55pm
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Dan Mangan wrote on Jan 7th, 2016 at 2:36pm:
MagicSteve, if you're adamant about getting a self-sponsored sexual history exam with full access to all of the data, start by reaching out to PCSOT examiners in your state. 

Here's a link to the Wisconsin listing on PolygraphPlace.com: http://www.polygraphplace.com/docs/c-15-s-Wisconsin-examiners.html#Brookfield

It's possible you may find an examiner who's asleep at the wheel and not monitoring this site, as your claims of countermeasure prowess will certainly work against you.

If you can make your way to NH, I'd administer a sexual history exam -- which often ends up as a battery of individual polygraph tests -- and provide you with the full package of supporting documentation, charts, video, etc.

You would need to explore the logistics well ahead of time, as such testing is time consuming, expensive and stressful.



Thank you for your honest response. I can certainly look into that.

It doesn't take 'prowess' to prevent a false positive. One doesn't even need to do anything. Just the full knowledge that the poly is crap, that examiners lie, and innocence is plenty enough to pass. I've seen  it done pretty much that way dozens of times, even with people who I knew were lying. Confidence is key. If you know you will pass, you will pass. People fear what they do not know, and you should fear nothing in terms of the poly. I know poly's like I know my own name. Knowledge of procedures, tactics, science (or lack thereof) and history is 'counter-measure' enough.

As for examiners being 'asleep at the wheel'... do you think anything i've said about myself, or 'my' case has been fact? All of it - or none of it - may be true, either of me or anyone else. I'm not an imbecile, just looking for info on an issue that may or may not even be specifically relevant to whatever I have written about on this site. Remember how, in my initial post, I gave you a 'scenario' that i wanted to run by you all? There was a logistical reason for that.

Would it surprise you to find out that I don't even live where 'I' said I do? And, for all of my knowledge and ability to determine loopholes in the rules pertaining to the DOC and sex offenders, and laws pertaining to polys and family court, would it surprise you to learn that I'm in a legal profession, working on behalf of someone else?

Not only polygraphers can disseminate to accomplish a goal.
  
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Re: Sexual History Poly - need advice!
Reply #9 - Jan 7th, 2016 at 4:32pm
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MagicSteve, reread my original reply to your post.

I said, "If your story is true..."

You're certainly not an imbecile, but quite possibly a troll.
  
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Re: Sexual History Poly - need advice!
Reply #10 - Jan 7th, 2016 at 5:15pm
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I need sharp minds, not closed ones.

You might start with sharpening yours to realize there is no difference between "butt grabbing" and inserting your finger into a vagina.
  
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Re: Sexual History Poly - need advice!
Reply #11 - Jan 7th, 2016 at 5:43pm
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Ark, maybe it's all theater on MagicSteve's part, but in my view he comes across in a fashion similar to that of the more egocentric entitlement-minded sex offenders I dealt with while doing PCSOT for over five years at a state prison.
  
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Re: Sexual History Poly - need advice!
Reply #12 - Jan 7th, 2016 at 6:58pm
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Ex Member wrote on Jan 7th, 2016 at 5:15pm:
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I need sharp minds, not closed ones.

You might start with sharpening yours to realize there is no difference between "butt grabbing" and inserting your finger into a vagina.


About a decade in state prison's difference, depending on the age of the victim. Also, the mental state of the offender... butt grabbing, as it were, could be constituted as a grooming behavior, whilst vaginal penetration would never be seen in the same light. Different approaches, both legally and therapeutically. Different risk-factors, different risk groups, so on and so forth. Does not matter what jurisdiction.

Even in therapeutic circles, as in treatment groups, there is a difference. It is widely acknowledged that not all victims of various crimes (or even the same crime) suffer in quite the same way. I know of one offender who called himself a monster in one treatment group, saying that his inappropriate touch crime was on par with an offender who anally raped a 3 year old boy while holding a sword to his throat... His therapist scolded him in front of the whole group, acknowledging that while his crime was immoral, it lessened the scope and severity of the other guy's crime to say that his touch crime was on par, and lessened the impact of the penetration crime.

Butt grabbing and vaginal penetration? Apples and oranges. Read case law, look  at sentence structures. Single offense offenders vs. long-term offenders, even in the same sub group, are treated differently. The scenario I proffered? The initial purported sentence - virtually probation - is actually on par with the norm for that type of crime. If it had been a vaginal penetration scenario, then the minimum would have been 3 years in. There is actually a matrix the judges use to calculate these things. If the scenario had involved multiple 'butt - touchings' over a period of time? Then, the sentence the scenario defendant received might have been appropriate, had the 'defendant' had a prior criminal history. Other factors, like age of the offender at first contact, come into play, as well.
Lots of variables that make 'butt grabbing' and vaginal penetration quite a bit different. Probation agents, judges, lawyers, therapists - they know. the law, as in statutes, recognize this. Even members of the community, when fully appraised of facts and details of cases, scratch their heads at the current witch-hunt type laws. I have helped and seen enough of these type of offenders reintegrate into society to know. Experience makes the best teacher, does it not?

Here is a comparison that I can make that is valid. Saying that 'butt touching' and vaginal penetration is the same is equal to saying that all child sex offenders are pedophiles.

I guess that an individual who knows what he/she is talking about, and uses facts to support logical arguments, is egocentric? Strange world we live in. No wonder people hate lawyers! Whether I was an offender or not, the information would still be valid. It would be less valid if I were an offender? That is illogical. I have dealt with offenders who deal with scorn because they educate themselves. Knowledge is power, so I guess that an offender that knows what we do is a danger or is self centered/entitled/egocentric or is minimizing? He is somehow a danger or isn't taking his treatment seriously? Anyone who knows about current therapy models for SO's knows that beating them down is no longer appropriate. In a nutshell, the mode of operation is 'You are good people who did a bad thing - let's find out why', or 'Your crime is a symptom of a larger problem in your life - let's fix that problem'. So, by educating themselves, offenders are helping themselves. It's all cognitive, folks. Thinking errors. Most offenders aren't lifelong criminals. Thinking or believing that because offenders are smart, and know the ropes, that they are manipulating or not serious about recovery is ridiculous... especially coming from a polygraph examiner, whose job it is to deceive people. That's distorted as hell.

You, Mr. Mangan (according to treatment models), are in your cycle, and are a greater risk to offend than most offenders I have dealt with. You willingly lie and deceive people, using justifications to make what you do acceptable. You would be viewed as egocentric and would be at least a moderate risk by most statistical models used to gauge risk (COPMAS assessments, Static-99 and the like) because of your unrepentant ways. You claim to know the wrong in what you do, yet you still do it. Offenders, with low impulse control, share the same characteristics. Not saying you are a SO, but I'm making the valid comparison to show you exactly how two people, with similar distortions, are viewed differently just because one person made an immoral mistake. ONE MISTAKE... yet you choose to be immoral as a career, and you are better than the guys who made one mistake, and work hard as hell to correct their behaviors?

I have not said anything in this post that is not true and is not otherwise accepted by law enforcement/social workers/the DOC/therapists/lawyers at large.

To cap that, I proclaim polygraphs to be fraudulent and nonsensical (staying on topic, of course).
  
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Re: Sexual History Poly - need advice!
Reply #13 - Jan 7th, 2016 at 7:07pm
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Butt grabbing and vaginal penetration? Apples and oranges.

Not to the victim.
  
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Re: Sexual History Poly - need advice!
Reply #14 - Jan 7th, 2016 at 7:30pm
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MagicSteve, go to the "Recommended Reading" page of my web site www.polygraphman.com, follow all four links,  and then tell me how my practice is immoral.

Moreover, I tell all of prospective clients up front, when they call, that polygraph is a crap shoot, has no proven scientific basis, and can be defeated by following simple instructions freely available on the internet.

My practice is based on supply and demand. It's that simple.

When it comes to polygraph, I strongly believe that an informed consumer is better served than an ignorant one.
  
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