Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 5 Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Polygraph Place Bulletin Board Private Forum (Read 54620 times)
Ex-Examiner
Guest


Polygraph Place Bulletin Board Private Forum
Jun 6th, 2013 at 10:40am
Print Post  
                       Polygraph Place Bulletin Board Private Forum Archive

Ralph Hilliard, who runs the website PolygraphPlace.com, was compelled to take the site's bulletin board offline owing to "ongoing problems related to email spammers using vulnerabilities of the bulletin board to send spam through the server."

The bulletin board included a private forum for polygraph examiners that was opened on October 9, 2002. This is an archive of the private forum. Each message thread is saved in Mozilla Archive File Format (MAFF).

To read these files, you will need Mozilla Firefox and the Mozilla Archive File Format (MAFF) extension.

Get Firefox here:

https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/fx/

Get the MAFF extension by selecting Tools->Add-ons and searching for MAFF or at:

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/mozilla-archive-format/

The file "Polygraph Place Bulletin Board.html.maff" contains 33 tabs corresponding to the 33 pages of the bulletin board. Use this file to browse the available topics. However, the links won't work. Instead, there is a numbered folder corresponding to each page of the index and enclosing the relevant threads. Where threads extended for multiple pages, these are preserved in multiple tabs within the same file. Again, bulletin board navigation links will not work.

You will also find a folder numbered "0." It contains several discussions posted after the 33-tab index file was saved.

The discussions on the Polygraph Place examiners' forum offer a rare glimpse into a closed community and could serve as rich source material for a master's thesis or doctoral dissertation on in-group/out-group psychology.

                            Dramatis Personae

A number of prominent figures in the polygraph community participated in these discussions. Screen names are indicated in parentheses where they substantially differ from real names:

* Gordon H. Barland, a former researcher at the Department of Defense Polygraph Institute

* Patrick Coffey (thenolieguy4u), a private polygrapher from northern California

* Barry Cushman (Barry C), current (May 2013) president of the American Polygraph Association

* Keith Gaines (liedoctor), an instructor at the National Center for Credibility Assessment (who is not a doctor)

* Ed Gelb (egelb), a past president of the American Polygraph Association

* Mark Handler (Mad Dog), a prolific writer on polygraph topics

* Ralph Hilliard (detector), owner of PolygraphPlace.com

* Donald Krapohl (dkrapohl), second-in-charge at the National Center for Credibility Assessment and editor of the American Polygraph Association's journal

* Dan Mangan, a private polygrapher who is skeptical of the scientific basis for polygraph. In the end he was banned from the forum.

* J.B. McCloughan, a polygraph examiner with the Michigan State Police and currently a director of the American Polygraph Association

* Paul Menges (CHSBOY), a former instructor at the National Center for Credibility Assessment (deceased)

* Raymond Nelson (rnelson), a private polygraph examiner who now works for the Lafayette Instrument Company

* Jack L. Ogilvie, a senior examiner with the Phoenix Police Department and a forum moderator

* Lou Rovner, a forum moderator and one of the few polygraph examiners with a Ph.D. (though you would never guess from his writing)

* Jim Sackett (sackett), a polygraph examiner with the Las Vegas Metropolitan P.D.

* Dan Sosnowski (Dan S), owner of a private polygraph school and past president of the American Polygraph Association

* Ted Todd, a polygraph examiner for the Contra Costa County Prosecutor

* Milton O. Webb (skipwebb), Army CID polygrapher and past president of the American Polygraph Association


               Suggested Readings (folder number indicated in parentheses)


* Got a call from Marisa Taylor of McClatchy Newspapers (1) Animated discussion of the investigative journalist's reporting on polygraph

* Comparison questions (20) Does this sound like the discourse of a scientific practice?

* We must have a mole (22) a long thread that begins with paranoia and moves on to the American Polygraph Association's investigation of the Marston Polygraph Academy

* Question on validated techniques (24) Scientific discussion?

* Countermeasures (28) A discussion of how to deal with polygraph countermeasures

* Honts (33) in which admission of Professor Charles R. Honts, a polygraph researcher, to the forum is discussed; forum members voted against allowing him to join the board.


           Discussions about George Maschke and/or AntiPolygraph.org
               (a frequent topic; these are just highlights):

* GM's Smoke & Mirrors 8)
* George Mashe (10)
* GM Translates for Al Qaeda? (12)
* Georges Wasteland (14)
* GEORGE MASCHKE; Ready, Aim, Fire !!!!!! (16)
* George Maschke arrested last night (16)
* Maschke's Website (19)
* George Maschke lives in a world of make-believe friends (21)
* George (22)

                         Discussions about Doug Williams:
                        
* Doug Williams book (3)
* Doug Williams to be on TV (9)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
getrealalready
Senior User
***
Offline



Posts: 57
Joined: Oct 6th, 2007
Re: Polygraph Place Bulletin Board Private Forum
Reply #1 - Jun 6th, 2013 at 12:16pm
Print Post  
Ex-Examiner,

You are to be congratulated! 

This is a treasure trove of valuable material and is a gift likely to keep on giving. 

A quick perusal suggests that this should be treated as a routine one-stop-shopping source, i.e., a logical beginning for anyone (cross-examining attorney, opposing expert witness (even another uninvolved polygraph examiner)) having a need to oppose many of the involved Dramatis Personae in a court of law, other public oral presentation, written review article, etc. 

Any inappropriate character revealed, improper demeanor displayed, any lack of maturity put forward, etc. will go a long way towards impeaching the credibility of a potential expert witness.  This would be true with almost any form of proffered expertise but is particularly so with polygraphy.

The potential outcome(s) of such negative traits would include examiner bias and improper "test" construction, administration, chart scoring, etc.  This is clearly the case due to the largely subjective nature of such activities all subject to and reflective of any personal character shortcomings of the individual constructing and administering any given examination.

I don't think it is too far fetched to see some of this material as a basis for review/reevaluation/reopening of matters previously handled/adjudicated/closed and involving several of these individuals...
« Last Edit: Jun 6th, 2013 at 12:44pm by getrealalready »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
polytime
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 4
Joined: Apr 3rd, 2013
Re: Polygraph Place Bulletin Board Private Forum
Reply #2 - Jun 6th, 2013 at 1:22pm
Print Post  
Well, I guess there's only one dog in the yard now!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Online


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 5776
Location: The Hague, The Netherlands
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: Polygraph Place Bulletin Board Private Forum
Reply #3 - Jun 6th, 2013 at 5:44pm
Print Post  
Ex-Examiner,

Thank you for sharing this information! It's a huge archive and will take time to read, analyze, and comment on.

All,

Unfortunately, the amount of time I can devote to polygraph matters is limited and is likely to remain so for some time. (I'm often available in the chat room, but when not chatting, I'm usually attending to non-polygraph matters.)

Thus, I encourage crowd-sourcing the analysis of the archive that Ex-Examiner has shared. If you have the time and interest, please feel free to download the archive, peruse it, and post anything findings you think noteworthy.

Here is a direct link to the 94 MB archive:

https://antipolygraph.org/yabbfiles/Attachments/Polygraph_Place_Bulletin_Board_P...
  

George W. Maschke
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: maschke@antipolygraph.org
Wire: @georgemaschke
PGP Public Key: 316A947C
PGP Public Key (offline): 2BF4374B
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Evan S
Senior User
***
Offline



Posts: 63
Joined: Dec 22nd, 2007
Re: Polygraph Place Bulletin Board Private Forum
Reply #4 - Jun 6th, 2013 at 10:09pm
Print Post  
Thank you Ex-Examiner for providing the readers of this website with this treasure trove of information of which the polygraph community does not want the general public to know!  I have always wondered what the polygraph community feels about the anti-polygraph community in general and GM in particular.

How did you obtain it?

Are you yourself a former polygraph examiner (judging from your moniker)?

How do you think Mr. Ralph Hilliard will respond?

(By the way, I had to install Firefox and install the MAFF add-on.  After downloading the ZIP file, I changed the property of this file so that it opens using the Firefox application.)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ex Member
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 710
Joined: Dec 9th, 2012
Re: Polygraph Place Bulletin Board Private Forum
Reply #5 - Jun 7th, 2013 at 4:45am
Print Post  
George W. Maschke wrote on Jun 6th, 2013 at 5:44pm:
Unfortunately, the amount of time I can devote to polygraph matters is limited and is likely to remain so for some time. 

George, you might want to take a couple days off and indulge yourself, it's a cornicopia. I found it amusing and alarming to read..the same people who have power over who gets hired in law enforcement or national security, talking like prankster school boys...musing over such silly things like using photoshop to alter your pictures....astonishing.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Online


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 5776
Location: The Hague, The Netherlands
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: Polygraph Place Bulletin Board Private Forum
Reply #6 - Jun 8th, 2013 at 2:27pm
Print Post  
A review of message threads in the Polygraph Place archive with "countermeasure*" in the title provides no indication that the polygraph community has any coherent, let alone effective, method of detecting the kinds of countermeasures outlined in The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.
  

George W. Maschke
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: maschke@antipolygraph.org
Wire: @georgemaschke
PGP Public Key: 316A947C
PGP Public Key (offline): 2BF4374B
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Ex Member
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 710
Joined: Dec 9th, 2012
Re: Polygraph Place Bulletin Board Private Forum
Reply #7 - Jun 8th, 2013 at 5:43pm
Print Post  
There are a lot of libelous statements against George, even liking him to a Sex Offender:

"I would liken Boy George to a Sex Offender in that he has an obsessive compulsive disorder that he is fixated on. He neither wants or seeks treatment for it, and would only fight any attempt to get him off of his fixation to the point of his own demise or imprisonment should that ever be decided for him. Further, Like a sex offender, I don't believe there is any cure for him. "
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ex Member
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 710
Joined: Dec 9th, 2012
Re: Polygraph Place Bulletin Board Private Forum
Reply #8 - Jun 9th, 2013 at 5:13am
Print Post  
The internal exchanges regarding the countermeasure challenge are good reading. There are two juxtaposed themes--trying to convince themselves that they can indeed detect countermeasures, overlayed with an acute apprehension to step forward.

Countermeasures Challenge - Polygraph Place Bulletin Board.html.maff
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Doug Williams
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 252
Joined: Feb 15th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: Polygraph Place Bulletin Board Private Forum
Reply #9 - Jun 9th, 2013 at 4:11pm
Print Post  
Ex Member wrote on Jun 9th, 2013 at 5:13am:
The internal exchanges regarding the countermeasure challenge are good reading. There are two juxtaposed themes--trying to convince themselves that they can indeed detect countermeasures, overlayed with an acute apprehension to step forward.

Countermeasures Challenge - Polygraph Place Bulletin Board.html.maff



Polygraph operators are so paranoid about people using so-called "countermeasures" that they routinely accuse everyone of using them.  It is a sad irony that most of the people they accuse don't even know what "countermeasures" are.  As a matter of fact, the word "countermeasures" is a word that has been misappropriated by polygraph examiners - it is used to describe what they say is a means to thwart their ability to detect deception.  But polygraph operators have always maintained that they can tell when a person is using these so-called "countermeasures".  If that is true, how can anyone use them "beat" the test?  But, for the sake of argument, let me ask a few more pertinent questions:  If people can indeed be taught to use "countermeasures" to "beat the test", wouldn't that prove the polygraph is not a "lie detector"?  Does the validity and reliability of the polygraph test demand that the subjects of the test must be ignorant about how it works?  If anyone could be taught how to produce and/or prevent a reaction on the polygraph at will, wouldn't that make the whole idea of a "lie detector" a fraud?   And wouldn't polygraph operators have to admit their little machine is actually just a sick joke - and that the polygraph instrument is simply a prop used by an interrogator to frighten people into making admissions and confessions?  And would it not be prudent for the government to quit wasting money on something that is nothing but a fraud and a con job?  The fact is the answer to all these questions is a resounding YES!

Polygraph operators do not want to debate the validity of the polygraph as a "lie detector" because they will lose - and they certainly don't want to answer any of these questions!  They know they cannot prove the polygraph is valid and reliable as a "lie detector - so they just say that the people who educate themselves are only doing research on the polygraph in order to "beat the test".  I say that is just BULLSHIT!  I have spent almost forty years proving that the "lie detector" is just a myth, and it is common knowledge that just telling the truth only works half the time, so people are smart enough to know that they must LEARN HOW TO PASS or they will be falsely accused of lying.
  

It is time to put a stop to this government sponsored sadism perpetrated by those who use this insidious Orwellian instrument of torture called the 'lie detector'!  Education is the most effective weapon I have to finally put a stop to the abusive practice of polygraph 'testing'.  Help me by educating yourself and others.  My book FROM COP TO CRUSADER: THE STORY OF MY FIGHT AGAINST THE DANGROUS MYTH OF "LIE DETECTION" is available on Amazon in e-book or paperback - please get this book and send it to as many people as you can - it literally destroys the myth of "lie detection"!  Doug Williams
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Online


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 5776
Location: The Hague, The Netherlands
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: Polygraph Place Bulletin Board Private Forum
Reply #10 - Jun 9th, 2013 at 4:26pm
Print Post  
Doug, I think you've got that right. Moreover, I think the very existence of Operation Lie Busters, an apparent effort to criminalize the teaching or learning of polygraph countermeasures, is testimony to the polygraph community's inability to detect countermeasures and attendant insecurity.
  

George W. Maschke
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: maschke@antipolygraph.org
Wire: @georgemaschke
PGP Public Key: 316A947C
PGP Public Key (offline): 2BF4374B
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Doug Williams
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 252
Joined: Feb 15th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: Polygraph Place Bulletin Board Private Forum
Reply #11 - Jun 9th, 2013 at 5:50pm
Print Post  
George W. Maschke wrote on Jun 9th, 2013 at 4:26pm:
Doug, I think you've got that right. Moreover, I think the very existence of Operation Lie Busters, an apparent effort to criminalize the teaching or learning of polygraph countermeasures, is testimony to the polygraph community's inability to detect countermeasures and attendant insecurity.



Good point - and it is also another example of the Government's all out attack on the 1st Amendment right to free speech!

By the way, on another subject - a few days ago I encouraged everyone to join me in giving a donation to help support you and your good work.  But when I tried, I was unable to do it myself.  When I click on the button at the bottom of the page, I got this response: "The link you have used to enter the PayPal system contains an incorrectly formatted item amount".

I suggest you look into fixing this so you can get some support from your loyal followers.
  

It is time to put a stop to this government sponsored sadism perpetrated by those who use this insidious Orwellian instrument of torture called the 'lie detector'!  Education is the most effective weapon I have to finally put a stop to the abusive practice of polygraph 'testing'.  Help me by educating yourself and others.  My book FROM COP TO CRUSADER: THE STORY OF MY FIGHT AGAINST THE DANGROUS MYTH OF "LIE DETECTION" is available on Amazon in e-book or paperback - please get this book and send it to as many people as you can - it literally destroys the myth of "lie detection"!  Doug Williams
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Online


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 5776
Location: The Hague, The Netherlands
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: Polygraph Place Bulletin Board Private Forum
Reply #12 - Jun 9th, 2013 at 8:03pm
Print Post  
Thank you, Doug, for pointing out the bad donation link at the bottom of the message board. I have updated it. I pay the costs of running AntiPolygraph.org out of pocket and am grateful to those who have helped to keep the lights on at AntiPolygraph.org over the years.
  

George W. Maschke
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: maschke@antipolygraph.org
Wire: @georgemaschke
PGP Public Key: 316A947C
PGP Public Key (offline): 2BF4374B
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Doug Williams
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 252
Joined: Feb 15th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: Polygraph Place Bulletin Board Private Forum
Reply #13 - Jun 9th, 2013 at 8:37pm
Print Post  
George W. Maschke wrote on Jun 9th, 2013 at 8:03pm:
Thank you, Doug, for pointing out the bad donation link at the bottom of the message board. I have updated it. I pay the costs of running AntiPolygraph.org out of pocket and am grateful to those who have helped to keep the lights on at AntiPolygraph.org over the years.


You're welcome - I just donated $50.  Now, I again challenge everyone who is being helped or has been helped by this website and all the other ancillary activities George is involved in to stop polygraph abuse - DONATE!
  

It is time to put a stop to this government sponsored sadism perpetrated by those who use this insidious Orwellian instrument of torture called the 'lie detector'!  Education is the most effective weapon I have to finally put a stop to the abusive practice of polygraph 'testing'.  Help me by educating yourself and others.  My book FROM COP TO CRUSADER: THE STORY OF MY FIGHT AGAINST THE DANGROUS MYTH OF "LIE DETECTION" is available on Amazon in e-book or paperback - please get this book and send it to as many people as you can - it literally destroys the myth of "lie detection"!  Doug Williams
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Online


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 5776
Location: The Hague, The Netherlands
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
American Polygraph Association Past President Skip Webb on Polygraph Screening
Reply #14 - Jun 14th, 2013 at 5:01am
Print Post  
In a 30 July 2009 post to the PolygraphPlace.com examiner's forum, Skip Webb, a polygraph examiner with the U.S. Army's Criminal Investigation Command and past president of the American Polygraph Association, makes an unusually candid admission about the nature of polygraphy in general and polygraph screening in particular that I think is worth quoting in its entirety:

Quote:
I think we placate ourselves into believing that the polygraph works under any circumstances and when used on anyone for any reason. None of which is really true. It appears especially true in pre-employment and periodic screening.

Think of what we do as using a torque wrench to tighten a lug nut. If we set the torque too high, we tighten the lug until we wring the head off. Not a good result, especially if you’re the nut being tightened or you are the one responsible for keeping the wheels turning safely. If we set the torque too low, we never break a bolt, we do get the warm and comforting sound of the click when we tighten the nut but in reality, one day the wheel is going to run off. Again, not a good result.

Our dilemma appears to be easily solved by just finding the right amount of torque to get the job done without breaking the bolt. In reality, though, every bolt has a different tolerance or breaking point and every job requires a different amount of torque. We don’t have the luxury of knowing either of the unknowns going in.

Added to our problem is when the policy wonks come into play. Human Resources wonks say we’re breaking too many lug nuts so we lower the torque a bit. Security wonks say we’re letting too many wheels fall off so tighten the torque. It’s kind of hard to blame our problem on either the torque wrench or the lug nut. More policy types then add another problem by bringing in weaker and weaker lug nuts and demanding they be used to hold the wheel on. We’re told to use them anyway and don’t break any off in the process. Then we start manipulating the torque settings to accomplish that, knowing when a wheel runs off, we’re the ones who will get blamed

As the person using the tool, we have the responsibility to quit overselling our abilities and that of polygraph process. What polygraph can do, it can do pretty well. What it does poorly is what bites us in the ass when we use it anyway.


The same day, former DoDPI researcher Gordon H. Barland replied, "I am awestruck. That is a truly brilliant metaphor!"

I'm one of the "bolts" whose "head was wrung off," and I think Webb's metaphor shows that polygraph examiners at the highest levels of government know damned well that what they're doing is not science. It's also a tacit admission that pass/fail rates are dictated from above.

Webb's post appears in the message thread, "GM's Smoke & Mirrors" which is to be found in folder 8 of the archive.
  

George W. Maschke
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: maschke@antipolygraph.org
Wire: @georgemaschke
PGP Public Key: 316A947C
PGP Public Key (offline): 2BF4374B
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 5
Send TopicPrint
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo