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CBP POLYGRAPH EXPERIENCE - FAILURE (Read 14476 times)
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CBP POLYGRAPH EXPERIENCE - FAILURE
May 13th, 2013 at 9:37pm
Mark & Quote Quote 
Hello ,I wanted to share with you my experience, you previously gave me the information on the class action lawsuit again CBP for failing military people.
the mans name was supposedly Larry Gordon, and I donít believe that was his real name. He greeted me and as did I and he told me to get comfortable and take my jacket off which I listened to him. He turned the interview from formal to informal right away. He said he wanted to get to know me. We spoke about everything, ranging from my hobbies of guitar playing, wood sculpting, my billiards hobby, the music I listen to (jazz,classic rock, big band &swing), physical fitness.. then we move on and start signing a bunch of papers, one of which was that I had no right to appeal his decision. We started with the real questions and the whole time he is laughing and joking around with me making me feel as if we were friends which I knew in the back of my mind that we were not. I DID NOT HOLD ANY INFORMATION ABOUT MYSELF TO HIM. He asked and I simply answered accordingly. I never did anything bad in my life to exclude me from law enforcement. I've been drunk maybe 2 times in my life when I was a teenager and smoked pot maybe less than 10 times from ages 14-16. I was arrested for graffiti when I was 17 ( nothing gang related just b.síing with my friends.) It was a violation charge with a 90$ fine. no misdemeanors no felonies no DUI or drunk driving of any kind.  I am a married 23 year old with a 2 year old son and I served Honorably on active duty with the U.S Army Infantry for 4 years and now a disabled veteran, I also hold a active top secret clearance. I am also now in the reserves. I am also a criminal justice major graduate, BA. I have no record of any mental disorders or any therapy or any medication of any kind what so ever. How am I not the right candidate?
                 With all that information he strapped me to the seat and we began. His attitude completely changed and he got very irritated with me on the first set of questions. He kept telling me to stop moving and shaking even though I was very calm and relaxed. There was also a fire drill before the lunch break. He ended that session and told me to go outside for 30 minutes and think. He calls me back in and we begin with the second set of questions. This time I am just nodding my head yes or no and keeping my eyes on one spot on a white wall. I did what he told me to do. He continued with unprofessional gestures like he was annoyed and irritated. I thought he was trying to see if I was going to get upset or angry. I did not, I kept calm and continued answering all his questions. He than began to tell me that I am withholding information from him which I immediately expressed my disagreement politely. He continued with that for about 45 minutes trying to get me to tell him something anything. Towards the end he rolled his chair in front of mine and began an interrogation style approach. He leaned forward and told me to think back about anything I have ever done that I didnít tell him. I told him that I have nothing to tell you, I told you everything about my life and my past. He told my that according to his polygraph that my statements are not accurate and I am withholding information. I kept saying no that I am not respectfully.  He then began to say that ď I think that sometime after you were discharged from the U.S Army until today you committed or were involved in a serious crime.Ē I said that was impossible and he is making false accusations about me. I kept saying I am a good guy I would never do anything to hurt anyone or disrespect the law, I am a law abiding citizen. He defined serious crimes to me, murder,kidnapping,arson,espionage,child porn,.... and said that I did one of those since I left the military............ then he said I now failed the polygraph and shook my hand and walked me out with a sad look on his face. I need not explain my frustration, I have lost many nights of sleep because of this. I spent almost 3-4,000 USD on processing, flights, hotels, private doctors to get a medical clearance for my army disability. I passed the VBT, the interview, physical fitness test, medical PASSED everything only for the rug to be swept under me when I wasnít looking. What he did to me is ILLEGAL and I want to press charges but I donít know where to begin. He told me I was going to come back and retest but I got a letter in the mail saying I am no long a candidate for the position of CBP officer. His office number doesnít exist anymore either. I have no way of contacting him and CBP agency doesnít respond to my emails. What do I do now? I recently took a Psychological interview for the NYPD and I disclosed the fact that I failed a polygraph for CBP. The interviewer grilled me really hard for that and I am now worried I failed because of the poly and I cant  do anything in law-enforcement again. 
there is my honest statement for my CBP polygraph failure.

-CHRIS TSINTAVIS, U.S ARMY VET
-347-6965731 ZEPHYR9989@VERIZON.NET
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Re: CBP POLYGRAPH EXPERIENCE - FAILURE
Reply #1 - May 13th, 2013 at 11:43pm
Mark & Quote Quote 
To my knowledge, CBP polygraph operators use their real names when polygraphing applicants. I found a LinkedIn profile for Larry Gordon as well as an American Polygraph Association directory entry (he has been a member since 2002). The New York State Polygraph Examiners Association also lists Larry Gordon as a member.

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George W. Maschke
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Re: CBP POLYGRAPH EXPERIENCE - FAILURE
Reply #2 - May 14th, 2013 at 7:59am
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11x-RANGER wrote on May 13th, 2013 at 9:37pm:
What he did to me is ILLEGAL and I want to press charges but I donít know where to begin. -CHRIS TSINTAVIS, U.S ARMY VET
-347-6965731 ZEPHYR9989@VERIZON.NET


The CBP Polygraph operators are out of control (as are all of these con men).† I suggest you contact this attorney:

http://pilotlawcorp.com/staff/brian-j-lawler-founder-and-shareholder/


He is assisting Vets who are filing a class action lawsuit against the CBP polygraph unit.
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Re: CBP POLYGRAPH EXPERIENCE - FAILURE
Reply #3 - May 14th, 2013 at 4:37pm
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thank you all for the most generous information!!
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Re: CBP POLYGRAPH EXPERIENCE - FAILURE
Reply #4 - Oct 17th, 2013 at 5:12pm
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I dont understand why spend 3-4000 on processing. i went to through the same process and did not spend any penny. i went through polygraph. I never did anything wrong and i passed it. You can nod  your head while polygraph testing. any movement will fail you. I see that you said you never did anything wrong but smoked pot???? come on dude.....
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Re: CBP POLYGRAPH EXPERIENCE - FAILURE
Reply #5 - Oct 18th, 2013 at 12:35pm
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jasonnyc,

Congratulations on passing your polygraph. In 2012, U.S. Customs and Border Protection had a polygraph pass rate of only about one in three. There can be no doubt but that many qualified, truthful applicants are falsely branded as liars as a result of erroneous polygraph results and as a result are wrongly blacklisted from employment. It's unfair to individuals and deprives the U.S. government of the services of well-qualified applicants.

Making matters worse, spies, saboteurs, terrorists, or narcotraffickers can pass the polygraph using simple countermeasures that polygraph operators cannot detect. U.S. Customs and Border Protection's outlandish criminal investigation of Chad Dixon and Doug Williams for teaching people how to pass the polygraph is testimony to the polygraph community's frustration over its inability to detect countermeasures.

Your snarky comments to 11x-RANGER are completely out of line. He explained why he incurred costs in connection with his CBP application. The head nodding he mentioned would have been in connection with the "Silent Answer Test," a polygraph technique that you'll find explained in The Lie Behind the Lie Detector. And 11x-RANGER didn't say he "never did anything wrong but smoked pot." Rather, he wrote that he "never did anything bad in [his] life to exclude [him] from law enforcement."

Your lack of empathy for others (and limited reading and critical thinking skills) might make you a good candidate for polygraph school.
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George W. Maschke
E-mail: maschke@antipolygraph.org
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SIP: georgemaschke@ostel.co
Encrypted voice and text chat (XMPP via Jitsi): georgemaschke@jit.si
Postal mail: Van Trigtstraat 53, 2597 VX The Hague, The Netherlands
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep. -- Saul Bellow
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Re: CBP POLYGRAPH EXPERIENCE - FAILURE
Reply #6 - Oct 18th, 2013 at 1:47pm
Mark & Quote Quote 
George W. Maschke wrote on Oct 18th, 2013 at 12:35pm:
jasonnyc,

Congratulations on passing your polygraph. In 2012, U.S. Customs and Border Protection had a polygraph pass rate of only about one in three. There can be no doubt but that many qualified, truthful applicants are falsely branded as liars as a result of erroneous polygraph results and as a result are wrongly blacklisted from employment. It's unfair to individuals and deprives the U.S. government of the services of well-qualified applicants.

Making matters worse, spies, saboteurs, terrorists, or narcotraffickers can pass the polygraph using simple countermeasures that polygraph operators cannot detect. U.S. Customs and Border Protection's outlandish criminal investigation of Chad Dixon and Doug Williams for teaching people how to pass the polygraph is testimony to the polygraph community's frustration over its inability to detect countermeasures.

Your snarky comments to 11x-RANGER are completely out of line. He explained why he incurred costs in connection with his CBP application. The head nodding he mentioned would have been in connection with the "Silent Answer Test," a polygraph technique that you'll find explained in The Lie Behind the Lie Detector. And 11x-RANGER didn't say he "never did anything wrong but smoked pot." Rather, he wrote that he "never did anything bad in [his] life to exclude [him] from law enforcement."

Your lack of empathy for others (and limited reading and critical thinking skills) might make you a good candidate for polygraph school.
   
I agree with you George, but with one slight exception, I think this guy is already a polygraph operator. Just another troll wasting tax payers money. Probably from the CBP office of credibility assessment.  Tongue
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Re: CBP POLYGRAPH EXPERIENCE - FAILURE
Reply #7 - Dec 19th, 2013 at 3:29pm
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I had a very similar experience to 11xranger.  I too am in the military and hold a TS/SCI. 

To 11x, were you ever able to get an answer regarding if you can take legal action to clear your name? I have the same fear that this may hurt my chances of finding other LEO employment.
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Re: CBP POLYGRAPH EXPERIENCE - FAILURE
Reply #8 - Dec 21st, 2013 at 5:32am
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It's a shame and it extremely saddens that so many veterans have been rejected from CBP supposedly for lying during the polygraph examination. I am also a US Army veteran; ever since I was about 12 years old I made my career goal to become a US Border Patrol agent. Once I turned 18 I thought that it would be a great idea to get a BA in criminal justice and join the military in order to get some experience in that field as well. So I joined as a Military Policeman and eventually became a Military Police Investigator after attending a couple of schools. I obtained a BA in criminal justice, a top secret clearance and deployed to Afghanistan twice for a year on each occasion. I served 8 years in the military and after getting out applied for BP. A few weeks ago I went to my polygraph examination for Border Patrol after having passed absolutely everything and had been waiting on them for 3 years. My experience was very similar to 11xranger, the special agent pretended to act like my buddy and was very friendly at first. I have never been involved in any type of criminal activities nor used any type of drugs in my whole life. Ever since I was a kid I have been extremely responsible and wanted to follow a right path by being a law abiding citizen 100%. I've always had in the back of my mind that I wanted to work in the law enforcement field and that I had to hold myself to those standards.

The questions that were asked to me were very broad and on several occasions I had problems and was told that I was lying. For example I was asked if I had ever stolen anything. Right away I knew that I had never done such a thing but once I got hooked up to the machine I would start second guessing myself and getting nervous. I would then dig deep inside the back of my mind to try to remember if I had done such a thing in the past. After that portion of the test was completed I was told that I had failed that question. I proceeded to tell the examiner that that was kind of a broad question and told him that I may have possibly stolen a few things in the past. Things like an apple from a co-worker that may have been sitting in a fridge at work, a pen from a hotel, lotion from a hotel and so on. The examiner told me that he wasn't referring to those kind of things; he said that he meant valuable objects such of $500 dollars and over. He then later asked me the question again and I passed it. I had trouble with about 3 other questions the same way and each time that he told me that I was lying and I explained to him what might have caused that, he would ask me the questions again and I would pass them. Around 3pm I was told that I was going to be asked 5 more questions about National Security concern and I would be done with the examination. I became very excited and happy knowing that everything was going well so far, I was about to be done and that the topic that we were about to discuss would absolutely not make me second guess myself whatsoever during the questioning. As we commenced with the last portion of the test I was asked questions such as are you a terrorist?, do you have foreign contacts with whom you are involved in criminal activities? and things of that sort. After we were done the examiner told me that the machine had gone crazy when he asked one question in particular and he then said that I had failed. I was EXTREMELY HONEST during the whole process and even disclosed things that weren't even asked nor even possibly mattered just to get of my chest since I felt guilty for doing. Such as lying to a girlfriend once and having gone to a strip club while dating her. I believe that if any... that might be the biggest sin which I could be accused of.

I am extremely angry and disappointed with the fact that so many good candidates have been rejected from CBP after falsely being called liars after their polygraph examinations. I was myself called a liar, a terrorist and a traitor to my country. A country which I love and after having served for 8 years wanted to continue to serve as a Border Patrol agent. I am a patriot and would do absolutely anything for my country and would volunteer in a heartbeat to serve in the frontline no matter how many times are necessary in order to defend it. But now I am called a traior to my beloved country, a terrorist and a liar by an incompetent special agent and a stupid machine? Being a Border Patrol Agent has been one of my goals and dreams in life. Just yesterday I received an email stating that in a few weeks I will receive an official letter withdrawing my application from CBP with no chance to appeal and that if I wish to reapply I will have to wait 3 years. I will apply in 3 years ago since I am not going to quit on my dream of becoming a Border Patrol agent; in the meantime I will pursue another of my dreams which is to be an Army Ranger and serve in the 75th Ranger Regiment. I cant see myself doing anything in life but serving my country by protecting it and fighting for it.

I feel extremely disappointed and cheated by CBP and would like to file a lawsuit. Could anyone let me know if doing such a thing is possible and if so how should I go about doing it. This needs to stop; US citizens can just sit back and let the government falsely accuse them of criminals and liars and manipulate them in anyway that they want.

Thank you very much!
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Re: CBP POLYGRAPH EXPERIENCE - FAILURE
Reply #9 - Dec 21st, 2013 at 12:16pm
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Ranger, thanks for sharing. Your words are very touching. I can only offer my thoughts on what a lawsuit or other action(s) would accomplish. As the Marines say, "is this the hill you want to die on?" A clever, carefully orchestrated attack on the powers to be will definately give you a moral victory. I've known others who did this on a local government scale and when their power was challenged, they behaved like rabid animals caught in a cage. They will threaten, bite back and attempt to spin your side of it. Since they have deep pockets (our tax money) and lawyers at their disposal, you could expect a lot of push back. In short, you would have the consequence of never being able to work with them, or any other similar agency again. What you would gain would be the respect of true patriots, and your dignity and character would fall into that 1%.
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Re: CBP POLYGRAPH EXPERIENCE - FAILURE
Reply #10 - Dec 27th, 2013 at 2:00pm
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All these stories are unfortunate including the douche that thinks you are a life long criminal because you smoked pot.

Here is a story for you.... I am a US Navy veteran that served 14 honorable years. I was recently Illegally separated by the Navy under the ERB program. My contract was cut short even though I still had 13 months left on my contract. I got out of the service and  passed all the Ventura County Sheriffs tests and evaluations, including a polygraph by a person who has been doing them for over 30+ yrs. Unfortunately during the Academy I injured my shoulder and had to leave because of the medical treatment I had undergo. One day I received an e-mail stating that I had a polygraph for a CBP Officer position that I had been processing for over a year and a half (prior to my discharge). I figured this was a second chance. When I arrived to the the office that the polygraphs were being performed in I noticed that it was not well set up for a polygraph. The administrator was really nice and spoke very politely. It was all good until he asked me about secret documents. I had never handled secret documents so i don't even remember answering the question in the first place. He started drilling me, and telling me every other question was fine but the question about handling secret documents. I explained to him that I had never handled secret documents, but he insisted I did. He told me that If I didn't tell him about the secret documents he was going to fail me. I finally told him that I would be lying if I told him I have ever seen secret documents. Needless to say he said I failed, let me out his office, and that was the last I heard from the CBP. I don't know what kind of people they are using to administer these polygraphs but  They need a hell of a lot more training. Angry
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Re: CBP POLYGRAPH EXPERIENCE - FAILURE
Reply #11 - Dec 28th, 2013 at 9:21am
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Quote:
Needless to say he said I failed, let me out his office, and that was the last I heard from the CBP. I don't know what kind of people they are using to administer these polygraphs but† They need a hell of a lot more training. Angry



It is not a question of training - no amount of training will enable a polygraph operator to detect deception or verify truthfulness with a polygraph.  It is a sick joke!  All the scientific evidence proves it is no more accurate than the toss of a coin. 

After much thought, I have come to what I consider to be the only logical conclusion that can be drawn as to why government agencies, (federal, state, & local) continue to use the polygraph even though all the scientific evidence proves it is worthless as a "lie detector".  I believe they are using the polygraph as a subterfuge to avoid complying with federal employment regulations!  What else explains the 65% "failure" rate for applicants who have already passed a very thorough background investigation?  These agencies can circumvent federal laws and discriminate against people, ask illegal questions, interrogate/terrorize them for hours, and use the polygraph as an excuse to deny employment to anyone they don't want to hire.  They can be totally subjective in their hiring and firing practices when they use the polygraph, because all they have to do is to say the applicant "failed" a polygraph test.  By simply saying the person has "failed" a polygraph test, government agencies can hire and fire people at will and then just blame it on the "failed" polygraph test.  There is no way anyone can appeal a hiring or firing decision that is based on a "failed" polygraph - and those who are denied employment or terminated have no recourse - they can't bring a lawsuit for discrimination or wrongful termination!  Do I believe the government agencies who utilize the polygraph are this nefarious?  YES!  And it is tantamount to criminal negligence on the part of those charged with oversight of these government agencies to allow them to continue to use this so-called "lie detector testing"!

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Re: CBP POLYGRAPH EXPERIENCE - FAILURE
Reply #12 - Dec 29th, 2013 at 11:19am
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Doug,

There is legal recourse against polygraphers and no lawyer seems to consider this approach. They can be charged with "DELIBERATLY SLANDERING BY FALSE ACCUSATION". A thesaurus offers many alternate terms under this subject. In a court of law, a polygraph operator would have to prove his accusation that his subject was a liar. I would think any jury would favor the testee if the polygrapher could not prove his accusation because it destroyed the testee's chosen employment opportunities and his integrity was compromised. I will not get into the federal statute under which the lawsuit can be brought because they are extensive. This has to be done in federal court and any federal lawyer "should" know them. Forget a judge's decision because they will rule for the government most of the time regardless of the evidence or lack of.
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Re: CBP POLYGRAPH EXPERIENCE - FAILURE
Reply #13 - Dec 29th, 2013 at 3:52pm
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Twoblock wrote on Dec 29th, 2013 at 11:19am:
Doug,

There is legal recourse against polygraphers and no lawyer seems to consider this approach. They can be charged with "DELIBERATLY SLANDERING BY FALSE ACCUSATION". A thesaurus offers many alternate terms under this subject. In a court of law, a polygraph operator would have to prove his accusation that his subject was a liar. I would think any jury would favor the testee if the polygrapher could not prove his accusation because it destroyed the testee's chosen employment opportunities and his integrity was compromised. I will not get into the federal statute under which the lawsuit can be brought because they are extensive. This has to be done in federal court and any federal lawyer "should" know them. Forget a judge's decision because they will rule for the government most of the time regardless of the evidence or lack of.


Twoblock - You may be on to something here.  I sure wish some smart attorney would try that approach.† If they could win a case like that, it would go a long way towards putting a stop to the insanity of claiming the polygraph is capable of "lie detection".† I would love to see this insidious industry completely destroyed.† I helped destroy much of it with the passage of the EPPA, but they still continue to ruin the lives of millions of people.† It's way past time to put a stop to this BULLSHIT!† †Angry

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Re: CBP POLYGRAPH EXPERIENCE - FAILURE
Reply #14 - Dec 30th, 2013 at 2:09pm
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Doug,

I have posted this, on this type of info, on this site starting years ago. I tried, in vain, to get someone who had failed their poly to file a federal complaint. I even offered to help with their brief if they wanted to file pro se. No takers. However, now that crook Holder is A.G., these cases must be argued before a federal jury. NOT A FEDERAL JUDGE. Not being a BAR lawyer, I cannot argue a case. If I could, I would win one of these. I have won ADA - Sec. 504 Rehab. Act lawsuits (my specialty) before and wasn't able to argue the case. All these things require is: KNOWLEDGE AND GUTS.

I'm surprised that Mark Zaid didn't pick up on my posts. However, lawyers don't think they need advice. He lost.
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