Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?.. (Read 23859 times)
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Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Sep 26th, 2007 at 7:55pm
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Do most police departments give out Irrelevant and relevant tests?
Also When I'm answering the control questions do I answer,no, to all the questions? Or when I am employing countermeasures does it matter weather or not I answer yes or no? As I understand the object of police departments polygraph is mainly to see weather or not the applicant is truthful. So by employing countermeasures during control questions to make it appear as if you are lying on the controls. Wouldn't the fact that think think you are lying period get you a disqualification?
  
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Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #1 - Sep 26th, 2007 at 8:17pm
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Policehopeful,
I apologize for my sharpness at your earlier threads. I know of very few examiners who use Control Question Tests for Application Screening. R&I tests are the standard work-up these days in most cop shops. My advice is to avoid countermeasures. You'll hear otherwise from the fearful and burned ones on this site. They speak loud but their numbers are few.

What would look very well for you in the applicant process would be to see a therapist for a short while beforehand----I know it sounds condescending, but hear me out. The R&I test is a rough haul man. It isn't pretty-----and yes, it is a confessional. A R&I test with no kinky and/or worrisome disclosures when the fat lady sings is a suspicious event indeed. The dog thing would be far more understanding if along with other childhood issues (and we know that kids do things like this who have other sorts of problems i.e. serious depression, abuse)---that you had a record of getting a general therapist to hash out old bagage. A big guy such as yourself who has/had a therapist is quite endearing and shows fearlessness and maturity. Let's not even start with the shit you experienced in the Gulf sand (yah sara). Many applicants are still suffering untreated PTSD and have the stink of the war on them----better reason for some counseling----just to tighten a few bolts as they say. Good luck.
  

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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #2 - Sep 26th, 2007 at 8:19pm
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policeHopeful wrote on Sep 26th, 2007 at 7:55pm:
Do most police departments give out Irrelevant and relevant tests?


No. The "Control Question Test" (CQT) is the most commonly used technique.

Quote:
Also When I'm answering the control questions do I answer,no, to all the questions?


You should provide the expected answer. While it is often "no," sometimes it's "yes." An example of a control question that should be answered "yes" is, "Are you a truly honest person?"

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Or when I am employing countermeasures does it matter weather or not I answer yes or no?


Again, you should provide the expected answer to each control question.

Quote:
As I understand the object of police departments polygraph is mainly to see weather or not the applicant is truthful. So by employing countermeasures during control questions to make it appear as if you are lying on the controls. Wouldn't the fact that think think you are lying period get you a disqualification?


No. The key to passing the CQT is to exhibit larger reactions to the control questions than to the relevant questions. Review Chapters 3 & 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.
  

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Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #3 - Sep 26th, 2007 at 8:27pm
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Paradiddle wrote on Sep 26th, 2007 at 8:17pm:
Policehopeful,
I apologize for my sharpness at your earlier threads. I know of very few examiners who use Control Question Tests for Application Screening. R&I tests are the standard work-up these days in most cop shops.


What a shameless liar you are...

Quote:
My advice is to avoid countermeasures. You'll hear otherwise from the fearful and burned ones on this site. They speak loud but their numbers are few.


Unfortunately, simply answering the relevant questions truthfully is no guarantee that one will pass, as too many of us have learned from personal experience. The use of simple, effective countermeasures is entirely prudent for those facing polygraph screening.

Quote:
What would look very well for you in the applicant process would be to see a therapist for a short while beforehand----I know it sounds condescending, but hear me out. The R&I test is a rough haul man. It isn't pretty-----and yes, it is a confessional. A R&I test with no kinky and/or worrisome disclosures when the fat lady sings is a suspicious event indeed. The dog thing would be far more understanding if along with other childhood issues (and we know that kids do things like this who have other sorts of problems i.e. serious depression, abuse)---that you had a record of getting a general therapist to hash out old bagage. A big guy such as yourself who has/had a therapist is quite endearing and shows fearlessness and maturity. Let's not even start with the shit you experienced in the Gulf sand (yah sara). Many applicants are still suffering untreated PTSD and have the stink of the war on them----better reason for some counseling----just to tighten a few bolts as they say. Good luck.


The foregoing nonsense is a timely reminder that polygraph operators are not to be trusted.
  

George W. Maschke
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Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #4 - Sep 26th, 2007 at 8:29pm
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policeHopeful wrote on Sep 26th, 2007 at 7:55pm:
Do most police departments give out Irrelevant and relevant tests?


No. The "Control Question Test" (CQT) is the most commonly used technique.

Quote:
Also When I'm answering the control questions do I answer,no, to all the questions?


You should provide the expected answer. While it is often "no," sometimes it's "yes." An example of a control question that should be answered "yes" is, "Are you a truly honest person?"

Quote:
Or when I am employing countermeasures does it matter weather or not I answer yes or no?


Again, you should provide the expected answer to each control question.

Quote:
As I understand the object of police departments polygraph is mainly to see weather or not the applicant is truthful. So by employing countermeasures during control questions to make it appear as if you are lying on the controls. Wouldn't the fact that think think you are lying period get you a disqualification?


No. The key to passing the CQT is to exhibit larger reactions to the control questions than to the relevant questions. Review Chapters 3 & 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.





As a professional polygraph examiner and not a mere critical theorist, I vehemently disagree with your uncited guess that civilian law enforcement examiners use CQ tests more than R&I tests for applicant screening. It is plain wrong George, and I believe that you are sending this man to a dead end and miserable disappointment.
  

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Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #5 - Sep 26th, 2007 at 8:35pm
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Paradiddle wrote on Sep 26th, 2007 at 8:29pm:
As a professional polygraph examiner and not a mere critical theorist, I vehemently disagree with your uncited guess that civilian law enforcement examiners use CQ tests more than R&I tests for applicant screening. It is plain wrong George, and I believe that you are sending this man to a dead end and miserable disappointment.


No, I'm not guessing on this. That the CQT is the more common technique is based on feedback from countless sources over a period of years. Nonetheless, the R&I technique is not uncommon, and examinees should be prepared for the possibility of either technique.
  

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Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #6 - Sep 26th, 2007 at 8:37pm
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So George on the question "Are you truely an honest person?" would I use a countermeasure? Or just the relaxed natural breathing method?
  
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Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #7 - Sep 26th, 2007 at 8:38pm
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If I do face a IR And R test so I use the countermeasures on the Irrelevant questions?
  
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Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #8 - Sep 26th, 2007 at 8:42pm
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policeHopeful wrote on Sep 26th, 2007 at 8:37pm:
So George on the question "Are you truely an honest person?" would I use a countermeasure? Or just the relaxed natural breathing method?


That's a control question, and you'd want to show a reaction to it.
  

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Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #9 - Sep 26th, 2007 at 8:43pm
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I think that I have pretty much got this down. I just need to study more on how to better identify control and relevant questions. I am going to go with the anal spincther(not spelled correctl) for the cardio part. I will wear extra padding in my bottom to ensure that the sensor pad does not pick it up.
  
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Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #10 - Sep 26th, 2007 at 8:45pm
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policeHopeful wrote on Sep 26th, 2007 at 8:38pm:
If I do face a IR And R test so I use the countermeasures on the Irrelevant questions?


Absolutely not! With the Relevant/Irrelevant technique, you'd probably be best off sticking to the behavioral countermeasures described in Chapter 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector (and having a pre-planned innocuous explanations for any reactions to relevant questions you may be accused of showing).
  

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Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #11 - Sep 26th, 2007 at 8:46pm
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Well George, first I resent being called "a shameless liar". I am many things,---including temperamental, vulgar (sometimes), and even arrogant. But I am no liar.
Examiners around the country began dusting off the ole R&I 3 and 4 years ago after getting so tired of over-scrutinizing charts for countermeasures. I don't expect you to know this as YOU ARE NOT A POLYGRAPH EXAMINER. If you were a polygraph examiner, you would be underpaid, underfire, and under-appreciated.
  

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Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #12 - Sep 26th, 2007 at 8:54pm
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Paradiddle wrote on Sep 26th, 2007 at 8:46pm:
Well George, first I resent being called "a shameless liar". I am many things,---including temperamental, vulgar (sometimes), and even arrogant. But I am no liar.


You are indeed a liar. To be a polygraph operator requires that you be one. Your lies may stem from motives that you believe to be pure, but they are lies nonetheless.

Quote:
Examiners around the country began dusting off the ole R&I 3 and 4 years ago after getting so tired of over-scrutinizing charts for countermeasures. I don't expect you to know this as YOU ARE NOT A POLYGRAPH EXAMINER. If you were a polygraph examiner, you would be underpaid, underfire, and under-appreciated.


I'm quite happy not to be a polygraph examiner. But that doesn't mean I'm unaware of developments in the polygraph community.
  

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Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #13 - Sep 26th, 2007 at 9:03pm
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Geroge, this is one reason why I stated in an earlier thread that this site does more damage than good.  Police Hopeful is so screwed up right now - I have no doubt he will blow the polygraph.  Then you will have one more recruit to sling mud!

As for polygraph examiners being liars.  I will admit I have lied in polygraph exams.  Actually, I do it everytime I sit in a room with a sex offender and act like these deviant fu*ks are normal. 

Other than that, I don't lie!  and my money is on Paradiddle that he also does not lie. 

BTW, did 2block really call me a whore?  And, if so, how come you didn't ban him from this site.  That would be kind of two faced don't you think George? Angry
  
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Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #14 - Sep 26th, 2007 at 9:25pm
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Wonder Woman,

Polygraphy depends in fundamental ways on the examiner lying to and otherwise deceiving the person being "tested." Dr. Richardson has enumerated some of the examiner deceptions involved in CQT polygraphy an earlier message thread:

Quote:
Deceptions for the average examiner would include (but not necessarily be limited to) intentional oversimplification, confuscation, misrepresentation, misstatement, exaggeration, and known false statement.  Amongst the areas and activities that such deceptions will occur within a given polygraph exam and on a continual basis are the following:

(1)      A discussion of the autonomic nervous system, its anatomy and physiology, its role in the conduct of a polygraph examination, and the examiner’s background as it supports his pontifications regarding said subjects.  In general, an examiner has no or little educational background that would qualify him to lead such a discussion and his discussion contains the likely error that gross oversimplification often leads to.

(2)      The discussion, conduct of, and post-test explanations of the “stim” test, more recently referred to as an “acquaintance” test.

(3)      Examiner representations about the function of irrelevant questions in a control question test (CQT) polygraph exam.

(4)      Examiner representations about the function of control questions and their relationship to relevant questions in a CQT exam.

(5)      Examiner representations about any recognized validity of the CQT (or other exam formats) in a screening application and about what conclusions can reasonably be drawn from the exam at hand, i.e. the one principally of concern to the examinee.

(6)      A host of misrepresentations that are made as “themes” and spun to examinees during a post-test interrogation.

(7)      The notion that polygraphy merits consideration as a scientific discipline, forensic psychophysiology or other…


Another astute polygraph expert and critic, the late Dr. David Lykken, notes in A Tremor in the Blood: Uses and Abuses of the Lie Detector (2nd ed., pp. 191-93):

Quote:
One important point about the various lie detection methods that we have only touched on in passing deserves explicit emphasis in this summing up. All of these techniques fundamentally depend on deception -- not just in one way and not just in little ways. The theory and assumptions of polygraphic interrogation require the examiner to successfully deceive each subject that he tests in several basic ways. First, he must persuade the subject that being untruthful or even unsure about his answers to the control questions may cause him to fail the test, although in fact the opposite of this is true. Second, when he administers the "stim" test in order to impress the subject with the accuracy of the technique, the examiner has two choices, both of them deceptive. He can use the original Reid "pick-a-card" method in which the deck is either stacked or marked so that the examiner can be sure to guess the right card. Alternatively, he can use the Raskin "pick-a-number" method in which he deceitfully explains that he is "determining what your polygraphic response looks like when you lie." The truth is, that individuals do not show characteristic physiological response patterns when they lie that they do not also show when telling the truth. Third, throughout his interactions with this subject, the examiner must convey an impression of virtual infallibility. The stim-test is just a component of this basic deception. The purpose is benign enough; if guilty subjects are convinced the polgyraph will reveal their guilt, then they are more likely to respond strongly to the relevant questions. If innocent subjects are similarly convinced, then they will tend not to respond so strongly. Moreover, because most examiners truly believe in their near-infallibility, because as we have seen they are the victims of their own deceptive art, they may convey this needed impression not only effectively but also without conscious guile. Nonetheless, the polygraph test, as we have seen, has an accuracy closer to chance than to infallibility; the innocent being tested by the police faces worse odds than in a game of Russian roulette. The fact that most polygraph examiners are not aware of these facts (indeed, they may be the last to know) is not an adequate excuse. Fourth, when the subject is interrogated after a polygraph test, he may be the victim of repeated deceptions. "This unbiased, scientific instrument is saying that you're not telling the truth about this, John!" "Why don't you tell me whatever it is that you feel guilty about, Mary, then maybe you will do better on the next test." "With this polygraph chart, George, no one is going to believe you now. The best thing you can do is to confess and make the best deal you can."

I will confess here that I do not personally object to certain harmless deceptions of criminal suspects that might lead to verifiable confessions and a quick and easy solution to a criminal investigation. But a procedure that claims to be a genuine test for truth that cannot hope to succeed even by its own theory and assumptions unless the subject is successfully deceived in certain standard ways is an invitation to abuse, abuse by examiners and especially by sophisticated criminals and spies. I submit that it is madness for courts or federal police and security agencies to rely on polygraph results for this reason alone. As we have seen, of course, there are many other reasons for this same diagnosis.


To answer your question, yes Twoblock addressed you in terms he later regretted and asked be deleted.
  

George W. Maschke
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