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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?.. (Read 23858 times)
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Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #30 - Sep 27th, 2007 at 8:33pm
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Policehopeful.....due to your obsession with your upcoming test---which albeit is a stressful event.....your absolute fixation makes me think you are not so "hopeful."
  

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Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #31 - Sep 27th, 2007 at 8:53pm
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Paraddidle: I was just about to say the same thing.

George and the gang: do you still think you should be helping a man that can't even read your manual and process the info?

Eos, I believe it was you that told me yesterday you only help people to beat a pre-employment exam.  Did you realize that most of the sex offenders I polygraph are professionals?  Do you ever watch Datelines 'to catch a predator?"  A Rabbi...a military man...a school teacher.  You may think you are only helping pre-employments but of those you have 'personally taught' a great precentage have addiction to porn, deviant sexual behaviors (such as bestiality) etc. Look at all the preists that have been outed for sexually abusing children.   I believe Paraddidle said in a previous post, you may be able to beat an old examiner that is not trained (and that is trully unfortunate).  However, the majority of us are trained and watch for the likings of you and your cronies.  Just think about it the next time you TRY to help someone - do you know everything they have in their closet?
  
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Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #32 - Sep 28th, 2007 at 9:21am
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Wonder_Woman wrote on Sep 27th, 2007 at 8:53pm:
Eos, I believe it was you that told me yesterday you only help people to beat a pre-employment exam.  Did you realize that most of the sex offenders I polygraph are professionals?  Do you ever watch Datelines 'to catch a predator?"  A Rabbi...a military man...a school teacher.  You may think you are only helping pre-employments but of those you have 'personally taught' a great precentage have addiction to porn, deviant sexual behaviors (such as bestiality) etc. Look at all the preists that have been outed for sexually abusing children.   I believe Paraddidle said in a previous post, you may be able to beat an old examiner that is not trained (and that is trully unfortunate).  However, the majority of us are trained and watch for the likings of you and your cronies.  Just think about it the next time you TRY to help someone - do you know everything they have in their closet?

I'm not sure I understand.

You seem to be saying that you are trained to catch people who attempt countermeasures.  That seems to imply that you can catch people who attempt countermeasures, but I could be mistaken.

You also seem to be chiding Eos for helping people learn countermeasures.

If the countermeasures are either noneffective and/or easily detected, what is the concern?
  

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Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #33 - Sep 28th, 2007 at 1:13pm
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Wonder_Woman wrote on Sep 27th, 2007 at 8:53pm:
" you may be able to beat an old examiner that is not trained (and that is trully unfortunate)


Interesting. Are you saying that "old" examiners were not trained, or are you saying that their
training received was imperfect ? Either way, what is your cut-off for "old" ?
Do you mean that any polygrapher that falls outside of your cutoff should stop testing ?
If I think in terms of "old", then by your own definition you have probably condemned the entire APA
board to the rubbish heap.

Tip: engage your mind before your tongue.
  
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Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #34 - Sep 28th, 2007 at 1:20pm
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Wonder_Woman wrote on Sep 27th, 2007 at 8:53pm:
 You may think you are only helping pre-employments but of those you have 'personally taught' a great precentage have addiction to porn, deviant sexual behaviors (such as bestiality) etc.


And just how do know what 'great percentage' of professionals are addicted to porn, deviant sexual behaviours and bestiality ??
Where did you get your info from?? Does your p/g have a 'Clairvoyant' mode ?

Personally, I think that 98,36% of your statistics are made up on the spur of the moment,
together with your p/g calls.
  
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Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #35 - Sep 28th, 2007 at 1:24pm
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Allow me.
I will lastly state here what CM's can do.

1. There are still Examiners out there that haven't viewed several samples of different sorts of countermeasure charts, so to that end, I am threatened by the lack of familiarity on the part of other examiners---with countermeasure identification and the ways in which to handle them. Call it a priesthood, whatever-----don't call me late for dinner.
2. Behavioral countermeasures are certainly a threat---as they can damage the flow of information. Call it an interrogation deterrant------whatever. It is an elaborate version of creating a fake ID----a gutter crime in some instances, a high crime in other instances.
3. Countermeasures, like the tests that they invite (any test has countermeasures) change, necessitating countercountermeasures----and then new 2.0 countermeasures. This process is unending. It is interesting that so many antipolygraph people are not in the profession of human testing--of any kind---be it student aptitude testing,  drug testing, or polygraph testing. There is an entire field of epistemology dedicated to human testing theories---which extends into many fields both social/phsych and the hard sciences. Plainly said, the "testing science/art" is a worrisome activity, and that will never change, as humans are not silicone based lifeforms (no shit, right.)


Now, please all, stop the platitudes and the rhetoric that you all understand recisely what threats  cm's actually pose. Here is the absolute codified phylosophy on countermeasures.

COUNTERMEASURES MIGHT IN IDEAL CIRCUMSTANCES BE SUCCESSFUL, ALTHOUGH THIS NOTION IS NOT BACKED UP WITH RESEARCH, AND SO POLYGRAPH EXAMINERS SHOULD EXCERCISE CAUTION, NOT TERROR---AND STAY ABREAST OF LATEST TESTING METHODS AND COUNTERMEASURE RESEARCH. HOWEVER, WITH SEX OFFENDERS IN TREATMENT, WHERE THE INFORMATION AND DISCLOSURE PROCESS IS VITAL TO THE SAFETY OF THE COMMUNITY, BEHAVIORAL COUNTERMEASURES PRESENT WITH A CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER TO THE COMMUNITY. LIKEWISE, BEHAVIORAL COUNTERMEASURES ENGAGED IN BY APPLICANTS ATTEMPTING EMPLOYMENT WITH SENSETIVE CLEARANCES PRESENT WITH A CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER TO NATIONAL SECURITY, AS MANY APPLICANTS ARE UNABLE OR UNWILLING TO IDENTIFY/DISCLOSE THEIR OWN RISK MANAGMENT CONCERNS.
  

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Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #36 - Sep 28th, 2007 at 3:14pm
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I notice you didn't cite a source for your "codified phylosophy" on countermeasures.  Your cite might have greater credibility if you did.

Since you appear to like the term "clear and present danger," the following quote from the National Academy of Sciences could easily be interpreted as describing a "clear and present danger" to national security objects. The quote was from page 219 of the following report: The Polygraph and Lie Detection.

Quote:
Overconfidence in the polygraph--a belief in its accuracy not justified by the evidence--presents a danger to national security objectives.



Regarding your "codified phylosophy" of countermeasures, can you elaborate on what "ideal circumstances" might be?

If you are using a test to monitor the behavior of sex offenders, and under "ideal circumstances" that test can be successfully rendered pointless by someone using countermeasures, isn't the continued use of that test the actual "clear and present danger" to the community?

As already mentioned, George did not invent the information on this site.  All of it was freely available to anyone who chose to look for it.

You can't un-ring the bell and make knowledge of the polygraph go away.  And no reasonable person should be looking to blame someone for that knowledge being available.  If you are relying on a test that requires a subject's ignorance in order to have any chance of success I submit you are using a flawed test to begin with.

The reliance of governmental agencies on the pseudoscience of the polygraph, which as you have already admitted can be defeated by countermeasures, is the truly negligent act here.

Information on countermeaures has been available probably since the first polygraph was used.  The only difference is now it is more widely available than before.

Prior to this widespread dissemination of countermeasure techniques, I would imagine that examiners hoped their subjects did know know anything about the testing procedure and how to obviate it.  They couldn't tell for sure then any more than they can now, but they could reassure themselves that such knowledge was relatively rare.  Now, they cannot.

So, please, if you are able...  Explain the threat that the use of countermeasures presents.  And, if you are able, explain why the fact that information on countermeasures exists is more to blame than the simple fact that you are relying on a test that can be successfully obviated (by your own admission) by someone with Internet access.

  

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Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #37 - Sep 28th, 2007 at 3:30pm
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SARGE, EVERY TEST HAS BEHAVIORAL COUNTERMEASURES. THE TOURE DE FRANCE HAS BEHAVIORAL COUNTERMEASURES, SHOULD THEY ELIMINATE THAT RACE?

If mere knowledge of the construct of the test itself were to the detriment of accuracy, than why are many  polygraph examiners required to take the test? If anything but a thoughtful response comes from your fingertips, than I will be gravely disappointed with the "one with the good heart."

p.s. Provided that you really did recieve 3 (?) false positives, I would very much like to meet that examiner and see those unfortunate charts. My mother is blind from a doctor who made a simple mistake---twice. I still go to doctors, but I am highly curious as to their credentials upon meeting them.
Here is an idea;  www.anti-dumbassDoctors.com

  

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Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #38 - Sep 28th, 2007 at 4:00pm
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Paradiddle wrote on Sep 28th, 2007 at 3:30pm:
If mere knowledge of the construct of the test itself were to the detriment of accuracy, than why are many  polygraph examiners required to take the test? If anything but a thoughtful response comes from your fingertips, than I will be gravely disappointed with the "one with the good heart."

I don’t recall ever posting that mere knowledge of the construct of the test itself is detrimental to its accuracy, so I am uncertain as to why you chose to pose that question to me.  However, I did not look through my past several hundred posts, so I may very well have written it.

However, as I sure you are already aware, any theoretical or actual requirement that “many” polygraph examiners take the test is completely irrelevant.  What would be relevant are the results of those tests compared to the actual truth or deception on the part of the subjects, and whether the subjects’ knowledge of the construct of the tests did or did not affect their accuracy.  The number of examiners who do or do not take the test means nothing in and of itself.  I am sure you can see that.


Paradiddle wrote on Sep 28th, 2007 at 3:30pm:
p.s. Provided that you really did recieve 3 (?) false positives, I would very much like to meet that examiner and see those unfortunate charts.

And now you question my veracity?  That is hardly polite.  None of the posts I have directed toward you have contained anything resembling ad hominem attacks or remarks.

Police applicants are hardly in the position or possessing of the mindset to question the qualifications of someone whose endorsement they must receive in order to be hired.  And if you read my preceding posts, you will note that I failed three polygraphs with three different examiners.  Your post indicates you believe I failed three times with the same examiner.
  

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Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #39 - Sep 28th, 2007 at 4:21pm
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Sergeant1107 wrote on Sep 28th, 2007 at 4:00pm:
Paradiddle wrote on Sep 28th, 2007 at 3:30pm:
If mere knowledge of the construct of the test itself were to the detriment of accuracy, than why are many  polygraph examiners required to take the test? If anything but a thoughtful response comes from your fingertips, than I will be gravely disappointed with the "one with the good heart."

I don’t recall ever posting that mere knowledge of the construct of the test itself is detrimental to its accuracy, so I am uncertain as to why you chose to pose that question to me.  However, I did not look through my past several hundred posts, so I may very well have written it.

However, as I sure you are already aware, any theoretical or actual requirement that “many” polygraph examiners take the test is completely irrelevant.  What would be relevant are the results of those tests compared to the actual truth or deception on the part of the subjects, and whether the subjects’ knowledge of the construct of the tests did or did not affect their accuracy.  The number of examiners who do or do not take the test means nothing in and of itself.  I am sure you can see that.


Paradiddle wrote on Sep 28th, 2007 at 3:30pm:
p.s. Provided that you really did recieve 3 (?) false positives, I would very much like to meet that examiner and see those unfortunate charts.

And now you question my veracity?  That is hardly polite.  None of the posts I have directed toward you have contained anything resembling ad hominem attacks or remarks.

Police applicants are hardly in the position or possessing of the mindset to question the qualifications of someone whose endorsement they must receive in order to be hired.  And if you read my preceding posts, you will note that I failed three polygraphs with three different examiners.  Your post indicates you believe I failed three times with the same examiner.


Points taken. We can agree to disagree regarding the polygraph and examiner's ability to detect deception, despite your tenacious adherence to your anecdotal experience with applicant testing.

When I made referance to your 3 "alleged" false positives, I meant no disrespect------and knee jerk reaction to using the "alleged" word is a consequence of not knowing you personally. In absolute truth, you could be a 22 year old female imposter while I could be a 75 year old nursing home hobbyist. I was actually in my precise way conceding that I am angry on behalf of polygraph Examiners, provided that your story is true. See there I go again with the disclaimer/qualifier. I am very sorry for your experiences.
  

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Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #40 - Sep 28th, 2007 at 5:16pm
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Paradiddle wrote on Sep 28th, 2007 at 4:21pm:
Points taken. We can agree to disagree regarding the polygraph and examiner's ability to detect deception, despite your tenacious adherence to your anecdotal experience with applicant testing.

I believe my tenacious adherence to my belief that the polygraph is worse than worthless in pre-employment screening is based on exactly the same thing that your adherence to its worth is based – our own experience.

Clearly in your experience the polygraph has high accuracy rates, a low or nonexistent false positive rate, and is therefore worthwhile as a detector of deception.

In my experience I have been subjected to four polygraph exams by three different examiners (I had the same examiner on my third and fourth exams) in three different agencies/companies.  I answered the same sets of questions with the same truthful responses in all four tests.

On my first three tests the examiners looked me right in the eye and told me it was clear I was lying (each time the deception was apparently regarding a different subject.)  On my fourth test the examiner must have concluded I was truthful because they said I passed.

I do not see how any reasonable individual could go through that experience and not conclude that the polygraph is worthless in pre-employment screening.

I gave the same sets of truthful answers to the same sets of questions four times in a row.  Three times the examiner concluded I was being deceptive, one time the examiner concluded I was not.  How could anyone have that happen to them and not become concerned that the same machine is used to screen applicants for jobs that impact national security?  That the same machine and process are used to monitor the activities of sex offenders?  How could I help but wonder how many other outstanding police applicants were summarily struck from hiring lists because of nothing more than a “failed” polygraph?

In my opinion, I have an advantage over you and all the other polygraph examiners.  You take educated guesses, based on your training and experience, as to the accuracy of the polygraph.  If the test indicates deception and your training and experience lead you to believe the subject is in fact deceptive, your belief in the accuracy of the polygraph is confirmed.  But the fact is, and I hope you would be willing to admit this, lacking evidence or a confession you never really know if the subject was deceptive.

Therein lies my advantage, though that advantage is a Pyrrhic victory at best.  Each time I failed, I didn’t have to guess if I had been deceptive or not; I knew I had been telling the truth.  I know the polygraph is not accurate in pre-employment screening; polygraph examiners believe it is.
  

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Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #41 - Sep 28th, 2007 at 6:07pm
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Wonder_Woman wrote on Sep 27th, 2007 at 8:53pm:
Eos, I believe it was you that told me yesterday you only help people to beat a pre-employment exam.  Did you realize that most of the sex offenders I polygraph are professionals?  Do you ever watch Datelines 'to catch a predator?"  A Rabbi...a military man...a school teacher.  You may think you are only helping pre-employments but of those you have 'personally taught' a great precentage have addiction to porn, deviant sexual behaviors (such as bestiality) etc. Look at all the preists that have been outed for sexually abusing children.   I believe Paraddidle said in a previous post, you may be able to beat an old examiner that is not trained (and that is trully unfortunate).  However, the majority of us are trained and watch for the likings of you and your cronies.  Just think about it the next time you TRY to help someone - do you know everything they have in their closet?


WW,

Those in need have the most to lose, taking advantage of the fear by using a polygraph is just wrong, when (I believe) most of them are decent and honest. (this is obvious speculation on my part). But I believe in the goodness of humans, not the dark mindless primitive of them. Granted I cannot read minds, nor would I ever try. Well let me correct that, I do have some theories on cognition and heuristic interfacing. But that aside, I didn't start this fight. But I intend to end this debate about deception detection once and for all. The polygraph will be nothing more than a bi-line and antidote on technological foolishness of the 20-21st Century. Again best science and laws wins.  And the term Cultural / Behavioral Countermeasures is at best a primitive term. The paradigm term or definition should be "Cognitive Transfiguration", the best part is, its not a detectable thing as each of us has it as part of our :id: I can see all the minions at DACA (DODPI), scrambling now. The human mind is a wonderful tool when properly prepared.  And I am doing no more than what you do in your pretest to condition the examinees for polygraph, with the exception I am telling them the truth.  I will continue .....

Regards ....
« Last Edit: Sep 29th, 2007 at 1:34am by EosJupiter »  

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Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #42 - Sep 28th, 2007 at 8:52pm
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EOS wrote;

Quote:
Those in need have the most to lose, taking advantage of the fear by using a polygraph is just wrong, when (I believe) most of them are decent and honest. (this is obvious speculation on my part). But I believe in the goodness of humans, not the dark mindless primitive of them. Granted I cannot read minds, nor would I ever try. Well let me correct that, I do have some theories on cognition and heuristic interfacing.


We are the world, we are the children...we are the ones to make a ....Jesus H Christ Eos, are you a pastor? I don't share your puritanical views on mankind, as I have spent too much time working with sexually violent predators, my specialty. I only wish you could read minds, as it might give you more insight into the "dirty dozen" of criminal thinking errors. Perhaps a large number of your "clients" are such innocent victims to be tested with the diabolical FOF Box, but based on your faithful portrait of your fellow man, I doubt that you are steely-eyed enough to recognize a con-artist when you see one up close and needy.


"The honor system works when others are watching"---unknown poet


also:


"Virtue is insufficient temptation"
  

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Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #43 - Sep 28th, 2007 at 9:06pm
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Paradiddle wrote on Sep 28th, 2007 at 8:52pm:
I don't share your puritanical views on mankind, as I have spent too much time working with sexually violent predators, my specialty. I only wish you could read minds, as it might give you more insight into the "dirty dozen" of criminal thinking errors. Perhaps a large number of your "clients" are such innocent victims to be tested with the diabolical FOF Box, but based on your faithful portrait of your fellow man, I doubt that you are steely-eyed enough to recognize a con-artist when you see one up close and needy.



Paradiddle,

Again your profession is to work with these lower life forms, (truth be told, I admire anyone who can be LE), and from this saturation,  this is what you expect of all people. Its the old 1/2 full or 1/2 empty cliche' , I prefer the 1/2 full. Obviously you prefer the 1/2 Empty. When you always look for the worst in someone, you will undoubtly find it. And I chose to believe in them. A christian pastor would be a great vocation, but alas, I don't have the patience. But never assume that BS is easily passed by me. I help those I believe in, others I don't. My choice ...

Regards .....
  

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Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #44 - Sep 29th, 2007 at 8:01pm
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wonder_woman, first of all I know exactly how polygraphs work and I fully understand everything on the book. And secondly I am NOT a FUCKING sex offender. That is a word that is labeled on people all to liberally today. The real sex offenders are the rapists, people who get their rocks off of looking at child pornography, and child molestors. Those are the real sick and twisted people. I have moved past the events of my youth. I will not concern myself with those past event for the rest of my life. I am a good person. I have never been intoxicated(if you have it does not make you a bad person), I have never tried illegal drugs, I have never shoplifted, I have never downloaded illegal music, I have never recieved a traffic violation, and I served my country.
  
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