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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Discussing polygraph (Read 18850 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Dan Mangan
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Re: Discussing polygraph
Reply #15 - Jun 14th, 2015 at 4:29pm
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I probably sound like anyone who advocates for transparency in polygraph and wants to reduce polygraph victimization.

It's time to clean house.

The revolving door of good ol' boy polygraph politicos has to go, and the APA needs to rebuilt from the ground up.

Daniel Mangan, M.A.
Full Member, American Polygraph Association
Certified PCSOT Examiner
Candidate for APA President-Elect
  
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Re: Discussing polygraph
Reply #16 - Jun 14th, 2015 at 6:36pm
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pailryder wrote on Jun 12th, 2015 at 11:48pm:
A private, for profit business is as transparent as the law of supply and demand dictates.
The questions you raise are best asked before spending the money.


That kind of business model should be in a bucket along with fortune tellers and psychics then. If the examiner cannot provide objective evidence that countermeasures were suspected, then he should not pocket the $400.
  
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Re: Discussing polygraph
Reply #17 - Jun 14th, 2015 at 8:58pm
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Ark

To keep or not to keep is best addressed as a business matter locally.  Complain to the business in question, write your local newspaper, contact COC or BBB, file in small claims court or get an attorney and sue to resolve the issue.  The APA has no control over and very little or no interest in any private examiner's business affairs.
  

No good social purpose can be served by inventing ways of beating the lie detector or deceiving polygraphers.   David Thoreson Lykken
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Re: Discussing polygraph
Reply #18 - Jun 14th, 2015 at 9:13pm
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Ark

For purpose of this discussion, if we exclude screening tests and inclusive results, you would agree that there are four possible outcomes for any polygraph evaluation.

1.  True negative      subject truthful   examiner call truthful
2.  True positive       subject deceptive  examiner call deceptive
3.  False negative     subject deceptive  examiner call truthful
4.  False positive       subject truthful     examiner call deceptive

What is the worst call, from his point of view, that a LEA examiner can make?

What is the worst call, from his point of view, that a private PCSOT examiner can make?
   

« Last Edit: Jun 14th, 2015 at 9:45pm by pailryder »  

No good social purpose can be served by inventing ways of beating the lie detector or deceiving polygraphers.   David Thoreson Lykken
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Re: Discussing polygraph
Reply #19 - Jun 14th, 2015 at 10:45pm
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pailryder wrote on Jun 14th, 2015 at 8:58pm:
The APA has no control over and very little or no interest in any private examiner's business affairs.

Then what the hell good are they?
  
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Re: Discussing polygraph
Reply #20 - Jun 14th, 2015 at 10:52pm
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pailryder wrote on Jun 14th, 2015 at 9:13pm:
What is the worst call, from his point of view, that a LEA examiner can make?

What is the worst call, from his point of view, that a private PCSOT examiner can make?


False positives in my opinion are the worst calls. They falsely and unjustly brand a truthful person as being a liar and they may have a very long road to exonerate themselves. False negatives are more reason to not use polygraphy to mitigate risks.
« Last Edit: Jun 15th, 2015 at 1:26am by Ex Member »  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Dan Mangan
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Re: Discussing polygraph
Reply #21 - Jun 15th, 2015 at 2:29am
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The polygraph industry in general has an abject fear of the Countermeasure Bogeyman.

Why? Countermeasures work. (That explains why the polygraph industry shuns any sort of CM challenge.)

Clearly, there's a culture of fear and distrust in the polygraph industry -- especially in govt/LE/PCSOT circles.

Thus -- at least in my opinion -- the industry at large feels that a false negative is the worst possible call.

What of the victims of false-positive results? (Which can happen for a myriad of reasons.)

Well, they're merely regarded as collateral damage.

"Too bad, so sad," says the polygraph industry -- at least in a manner of speaking.

That bullshit has to change.

It's time for total transparency in polygraph, starting with a bill of rights for polygraph test subjects.

Potential polygraph subjects should be well advised of the risks, realities and limitations of the "test," as is the norm in the medical profession.

It's time for the APA to face reality, and do the right thing.

Daniel Mangan, M.A.
Full Member, American Polygraph Association
Certified PCSOT Examiner
Candidate for APA President-Elect
www.polygraphman.com
  
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Re: Discussing polygraph
Reply #22 - Jun 15th, 2015 at 2:37am
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Ex Member wrote on Jun 14th, 2015 at 10:52pm:
they may have a very long road to exonerate themselves. False negatives are more reason to not use polygraphy to mitigate risks.


I love your post pailryder.  One minor point of disagreement;  there is no long road to exonorate a victim after a false negative, there is no road.  My first negative experience with the polygraph was thirty years ago and I am still in disbelief that these clowns can erase a lifetime of integrity and sacrifice with a bad day on the polygraph.  I have known and know of several wounded and decorated veterans who offered and almost lost their lives for their country who have subsequently lost their jobs or clearance after being determined "unreliable" solely due to the polygraph.  The current use of the polygraph by DOD and Executive Branch agencies is a crime.  People at the top like our DNI and other Executive Branch Intelligence and Security leaders should be held accountable for allowing this disgrace to continue.  God bless former CIA Director Deutch who had the moral courage to speak out against this witchcraft.  Maybe that is why he was "done in". 

I will say that I am impressed by some of the polygraph examiners who have appeared on this forum.  There does seem to be a change of direction by some responsible and ethical polygraph examiners who desire to return the polygraph to its use as a "tool" and not final judge, jury, and executioner regarding a person's reputation and integrity. 

In our glorious past, impugning a man's character and reputation with no proof or solid evidence gave legal grounds to a challenge under the code duello.  Today's polygraph examiners are lucky to be living in current times.  If they attempted to push this witchcraft 150 years ago, lots of them would be traveling to the Old Dueling Grounds in Bladensberg on a daily basis.
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Dan Mangan
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Re: Discussing polygraph
Reply #23 - Jun 15th, 2015 at 3:14am
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Wandersmann, have you ever attended a presentation at which a polygraph "scientist" explains the theory (along with some research findings) about the "test"?

Sometimes, with certain speakers, such storytelling reminds me of the comedic bits performed by Professor Irwin Corey when he appeared on the Ed Sullivan Show. (Yes, I'm dating myself, but that's how they come across.)

It's time for the polygraph industry to shirk such convoluted and dubious academic fare, and face reality head on.

But first, we need to clean house at the APA, which sets the standards and writes the policies.

To put it bluntly, we need a revolution of sorts.

The good ol' boys have to go.

Daniel Mangan, M.A.
Full Member, American Polygraph Association. Certified PCSOT Examiner
Candidate for APA President-Elect
www.polygraphman.com
  
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Re: Discussing polygraph
Reply #24 - Jun 15th, 2015 at 4:45am
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Dan Mangan wrote on Jun 15th, 2015 at 3:14am:
Wandersmann, have you ever attended a presentation at which a polygraph "scientist" explains the theory (along with some research findings) about the "test"?


Dan -  Not really.  I have been polygraphed eight times in the last  30 years.  I've passed some, been accused of countermeasures, been inconclusive and once found DI.  I know the horrible feeling of telling the 100% truth and being called a liar.  I know for a fact that it doesn't always work.  During this time I have been given many "scientific explanations" by polygraph examiners who I later learned were lying to me.
  
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Re: Discussing polygraph
Reply #25 - Jun 15th, 2015 at 12:18pm
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Ark

Many LEA examiners consider the worst possible outcome to be the false negative.  Why?  They reason, I am not defending this reasoning, just explaining, a false positive can still be cleared by another means, alibi, witness, or forensic evidence.  But a false negative opens the door for a guilty criminal to walk and that is the result LEA's most want to avoid.  If you are called inconclusive and NOT interrogated, well, that is as good as it gets with some agencies.

The private examiner may have different considerations.  Word of mouth about a false positive call will and should cost him business.  But word of mouth reports of a false negative may bring paying customers to his door.
  

No good social purpose can be served by inventing ways of beating the lie detector or deceiving polygraphers.   David Thoreson Lykken
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Re: Discussing polygraph
Reply #26 - Jun 15th, 2015 at 12:30pm
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Ex Member wrote on Jun 14th, 2015 at 10:45pm:
pailryder wrote on Jun 14th, 2015 at 8:58pm:
The APA has no control over and very little or no interest in any private examiner's business affairs.

Then what the hell good are they?


Ark

Lets be clear.  Except for EPPA, which is a labor law regulating private employers, polygraph regulation is left to the states.  APA membership is voluntary.  The only real sanction they have is to refuse to accept your check for next years dues.

They are a paper tiger, but the only one in town.
  

No good social purpose can be served by inventing ways of beating the lie detector or deceiving polygraphers.   David Thoreson Lykken
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Re: Discussing polygraph
Reply #27 - Jun 15th, 2015 at 12:35pm
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Wandersmann wrote on Jun 15th, 2015 at 2:37am:
there is no long road to exonorate a victim after a false negative, there is no road


I think you have confused a false negative and a false positive.  The test is positive for deception, negative for truth.
  

No good social purpose can be served by inventing ways of beating the lie detector or deceiving polygraphers.   David Thoreson Lykken
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Dan Mangan
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Re: Discussing polygraph
Reply #28 - Jun 15th, 2015 at 2:04pm
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The APA drives the "polygraph science" narrative, which has a profound effect throughout the indu$try -- for members and nonmembers alike, not to mention a generally clueless public.

They've defined themselves as the torch bearers for the ethical pursuit of truth, something the APA should take more seriously, in my opinion.

A logical starting point would be a pro active role in consumer protection, as with a bill of rights for potential test takers designed to guard against victimization.

Unfortunately, polygraph and transparency don't mix very well...
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Joe McCarthy
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Re: Discussing polygraph
Reply #29 - Jun 15th, 2015 at 7:29pm
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pailryder wrote on Jun 14th, 2015 at 1:35pm:
Perhaps they do not share an interest in self promotion.


For me it has nothing to do with self promotion.  Though I have to admit that me being the only examiner who actually believes has been good for marketing purposes.

I would rather the industry in Texas do the right thing in regard to my legitimate grievances so I can blend back into the background of all this like between 2009 and 2014.  Also I have an issue with the fact that our industry refuses to use the test we sell to settle internal issues that are testable issues. 

I am not the only examiners who thinks this.  Hell I have even been in touch with lieguytoo who thinks that I bring up some valid points.  I find it strange how me and lieguytoo and act like gentlemen to one another but the rest of the examiners just can't seem to learn that I am easier to get along with than that want to portray.

As far as Dan being a self promoter, he is no more a self promoter than Holden.  Only everyone, publicly anyway, seems to fall on every word Holden says as if it were Canon. 

I don't agree with everything Dan says, but he does raise some valid points. 

Anyway, I think I have proven that Holden and his cohorts are scared of their own tests.  It does make one wonder, is it because they know everything I am saying is true, and they are afraid of having their lies confirmed?  Or, is it because I am an idiot for believing in polygraph and they feel that the test is not worth them risking their lives on?

I would rather be having this discussion and debate privately; but the simple fact is, this is truly my last option to be heard fairly.

  

Joe
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