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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) American Polygraph Association Elections: Race for president-elect pits Daniel Mangan against Patrick O'Burke (Read 100649 times)
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Re: American Polygraph Association Elections: Race for president-elect pits Daniel Mangan against Patrick O'Burke
Reply #135 - Feb 24th, 2016 at 11:00pm
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Ex Member wrote on Feb 24th, 2016 at 10:22pm:
Dan Mangan wrote on Feb 24th, 2016 at 9:11pm:
as well as their current pro-polygraph editorial board

It doesn't seem unreasonable to me that the editorial board of the APA is pro-polygraph.


He has gone off the deep end on this one.  It also goes to support that he is more destructive than constructive at this point.   

No member will support the editorial power being taken away form the APA, in their own journal.  While I will agree there is much that needs to get done within the industry, what he is proposing is political suicide.  People will not vote for someone that has a platform of total and complete destruction.  People will vote for change and the improving of the profession in general.   

I've tried to get through to him, but who am I to stop him from digging where the ground has gone sour.   At this point, even if you took the shovel away, he would dig with his hands; but with a platform like this, he will find himself with a big hole that cannot be filled. 

He is trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, when he has been told that it is more possible to fit a round peg into a square hole.

But hey, what do I know?   

Besides, this is the APA we are talking about.  At this current moment, I have no dog in this fight.  If I was a full member though, I would toss my hat into the ring just to balance the equation.

That actually brings up an interesting question. Hypothetically, I wonder what would happen if the two most radioactive examiners ran for APA president at the same time?  Now that would be a politically interesting battle.
  

Joe
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Re: American Polygraph Association Elections: Race for president-elect pits Daniel Mangan against Patrick O'Burke
Reply #136 - Feb 24th, 2016 at 11:03pm
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I will agree, polygraph leadership can be hypocritical, narrow, and resistant to the concept of "on the level" in areas.  But I do see things changing Dan
  

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Re: American Polygraph Association Elections: Race for president-elect pits Daniel Mangan against Patrick O'Burke
Reply #137 - Feb 24th, 2016 at 11:04pm
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Are you talking about Cushman Ark?
  

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Re: American Polygraph Association Elections: Race for president-elect pits Daniel Mangan against Patrick O'Burke
Reply #138 - Feb 24th, 2016 at 11:13pm
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Yes, he and Matte have been at odds over the Hope/Fear thing. In a way, I do admire Dan's loyalty to Matte and he is indeed, like him or not, a legend in polygraphy. But, I think when it migrates from spirited discussion to genuine angst, a pause and reflection are in order.
  
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Re: American Polygraph Association Elections: Race for president-elect pits Daniel Mangan against Patrick O'Burke
Reply #139 - Feb 25th, 2016 at 12:31am
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Ark, I dare say that a pause and reflection is in order to contemplate the scientific legitimacy of the "test."

On that score, APA past president Barry Cushman -- a police detective who moonlights as a church pastor -- seems conflicted.

How so? Well, in the eyes of the good reverend, polygraph is reliable enough to establish probable cause for the cops, but not good enough to be endorsed by your garden variety minister in cases of sexual infidelity. 

Barry, if I'm wrong, please chime in. And then explain the disconnect.

[cue crickets]

I'm relatively confident he's lurking. After all, everyone who's anyone in the polygraph racket watches this site like "rejected spinsters" watch daytime soap operas.
« Last Edit: Feb 25th, 2016 at 5:20am by Dan Mangan »  
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Re: American Polygraph Association Elections: Race for president-elect pits Daniel Mangan against Patrick O'Burke
Reply #140 - Feb 25th, 2016 at 12:37am
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I met Barry in Chicago and found myself talking to a different person than I expected.  He was very kind to me, respectful and willing to not only listen, but iron out differences.  I actually found a lot of that at APA.  I went expecting the worst, but encountered the best parts of the industry and a willingness to put the past in the past.  That is with one exception of someone I am glad to hear is not in your harem.  lol

I think both hope and fear have a degree of validity, as they are opposite sides of the coin, so to speak.  So this seems like a silly thing to argue about when people can work together and figure it all out.

People tried to warn me back in 2008, that pause and reflection were in order.  Like Dan, I was so wrapped up in the fight, I didn't listen; and I was wrong for not listening more carefully.  

If I had stepped back, nothing would have got done, no one would have listened, nothing would have been solved; but at least I would have been able to say, I tried and it didn't work.  

I wish Dan would step back and listen.  I don't want to see what happened to me, happen to anyone else.  I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.  Actually, that was wrong; I can think of one person I would wish it on.

Anyway, I have met Mr Matte, and considered it to be an honor to have met him.  

The Loyalty factor is typical of persons of the Masshole species.  Guys like me and Dan, you make friend with us, we can be undyingly loyal to a fault.  It's a code in some parts of Boston especially.  We will fight with one another, may even say terrible things at times; but when the chips are down, you will find us coming out of the woodwork to defend each other.  

If you weren't raised in it, it is hard to understand. lol

If him and I were in a bar, we might be ready to sing on one another, but five minutes later, having a pint, laughing and calling one another douchbags.  God I miss being home.

Might be time for a trip home to Boston to recharge the batteries 
  

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Re: American Polygraph Association Elections: Race for president-elect pits Daniel Mangan against Patrick O'Burke
Reply #141 - Feb 25th, 2016 at 12:44am
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Joe, how long have you been mainlining the Kool-Aid?
  
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Re: American Polygraph Association Elections: Race for president-elect pits Daniel Mangan against Patrick O'Burke
Reply #142 - Feb 25th, 2016 at 1:01am
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holy crap, you can main line that crap?  Wooo hooooo sugar sugar sugar  mmmmmmmmmmmmm

mix with vodka, spark up a few cigars, and we have a party.

Who's in?  Party at my place.  Bring your own koolaide and booze though.
  

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Re: American Polygraph Association Elections: Race for president-elect pits Daniel Mangan against Patrick O'Burke
Reply #143 - Feb 25th, 2016 at 1:13am
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Dude, you'd totally fit in with the "new, improved" APA -- at least in the hospitality suite.
  
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Re: American Polygraph Association Elections: Race for president-elect pits Daniel Mangan against Patrick O'Burke
Reply #144 - Feb 25th, 2016 at 2:28am
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If you would listen to me, I mean actually listen, you would remember we don't totally disagree about a lot.  Granted, there are things we disagree with, and I think you are going wayyyyy overboard; but you're not 100% wrong.   

The way you are going about all this is not smart, productive, or entirely logical.  With some issues, and I say this because I am secure in our friendship, you're wrong.  Of course I am sure you'll say the same to me, and have said that to me.  That is the great thing about friends, we can be honest with one another.   

Dan, the APA does want you to be more involved in a productive way.  Again, people asked me if you were going to be there; and if you were, they welcomed you to stand and speak up at the business meeting.  Dan, you have a voice, and you squander it. 

Don't get me wrong, the more "off the reservation" you become, the less unreasonable I look.  If I think about it, it is actually in my best interests to not try to talk sense to you, and in fact encourage you off the deep end.  Doing that would make me no better than the guys on PP; and the way they had fun with my misery and at my expense.   

I don't do things that way.

Dan, you really should step away from the ledge.  If you keep saying things that send a message that you will do more harm to the industry than good, the people you need to vote for you will not count on you to represent their best interests, balanced with the best interests of the public. 

You can't have one without the other.  Both have to be equally important to you if you want to win.   

That is just my take.   


  

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Re: American Polygraph Association Elections: Race for president-elect pits Daniel Mangan against Patrick O'Burke
Reply #145 - Feb 25th, 2016 at 3:11am
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Joe, you still aren't seeing the big picture.

My reforms will likely bring significant financial harm to the polygraph indu$try, but they will advance the polygraph profession.

If you have to ask what that means, you'll never understand.
  
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Re: American Polygraph Association Elections: Race for president-elect pits Daniel Mangan against Patrick O'Burke
Reply #146 - Feb 25th, 2016 at 4:24am
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Dan,
What would happen if the APA suddenly considered you unworthy of membership and there was a consensus to simply give you the boot? I think by attacking the religious beliefs of fellow members, you are giving them grounds to accomplish exactly that.
  
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Re: American Polygraph Association Elections: Race for president-elect pits Daniel Mangan against Patrick O'Burke
Reply #147 - Feb 25th, 2016 at 5:45am
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Dan Mangan wrote on Feb 25th, 2016 at 3:11am:
Joe, you still aren't seeing the big picture.

My reforms will likely bring significant financial harm to the polygraph indu$try, but they will advance the polygraph profession.

If you have to ask what that means, you'll never understand.


The industry needs someone who will advance the profession, our work product, integrity, opportunities, accuracy, reliability, instrumentation advancement, examinee rights, tougher antitrust rules or policies, and also advance the profession in a way that encourages growth and a level playing field.   

Over the past year I have seen improvements in some of these areas.  What you are proposing is to break the positive momentum and institute a scorched earth policy; a policy that is unwarranted at this point.

We also should be finding ways to encourage examiners, even new ones, rather than knock them down.  Where fiefdom markets and monopolies do exist, the industry needs to step in and foster a level playing field and competitive environment based off hard work and marketing over entitlement.  We need stop making excuses for people engaging in anticompetitive beaver and unfair business practices, simply because they sit at the popular kids table.   

Our ethics procedures need to change, and polygraph should be used in ethics investigations where such issues in dispute exist.  Moreover, we should publicize that we do so, when someone does fail the test.  This alone will up the credibility of the industry, because now, we are not asking our customers to do anything we wouldn't do ourselves.  This also needs to be enforced, across the board; even for the privileged in the industry.

I firmly believe, if polygraph had been used from the start in 2008, or back in 2014 for the situation I just went through, it would have saved a lot of people a lot of grief.  Funny thing is, everyone called me crazy for asking that polygraph settle the issue.  Well, until the end of last years key note speech, where F. Lee Bailey said, that he would take a polygraph if the need ever arose (paraphrasing).  Now the people who called me crazy, are suddenly silent.   

The longer we are an industry, that does not believe in our own product enough to use it for our own internal issues, the more we should be ashamed of ourselves.  The way to be leaders is to lead by example.  How is it that the one examiner, who is a pariah in Texas, (the perceived center of the polygraph universe; or so they think), took the lead to set the example, while all the other polygraph leaders either ran and hid, or called me crazy? 

The industry, as a whole should take this first, easy, and free step, in an all win, no lose way to step up the industries credibility.  This simple step, that costs nothing and no reasonable argument, within the industry, can be made not to institute this.   

Also I think this will be a great tool to inspire ethical conduct within the polygraph industry.  I also feel this will identify and eliminate unethical people within the industry, and maybe even act as a deterrent against unethical behavior.  I think such a rule will promote and inspire public acceptance of polygraph as well.  After all, would you eat at a restaurant where its owner and employees avoided eating the food they prepare?  I know I wouldn't.   

The only polygraph examiner who would object to a rule like this, is an examiner who knows they will have something to hide someday, or, that examiner does not believe in the product he or she sells to the public.  I could put a few names to this list here in Texas, but, we already know who they are.  Don't we?

The unethical will either straighten up in the risk of being exposed; or they will be weeded out. This makes room for other examiners to compete in an industry that encourages and mandates fair trade practices and an ethical competitive environment that is above reproach.  How is this a bad thing?

Actually I think a step like this will boost confidence in the test and what we do, which in turn, could boost the over all bottom line for the private sector.  Consumer confidence = a bigger bottom line.  Moreover, it will earn consumer respect for the industry as a whole.

This is a proposition that is, all win for everyone; with no down side.  It's as good for the big fish, as it is for the little fish.  Also, I can say from experience, it does make a good marketing tool.   

See Dan, consumer protection, while increasing the possibility of a better bottom line, by increasing consumer confidence that we believe in the product we sell.  Leading by example, and marketing by making an idea into an action.   

No talk about destroying everything, or bully pulpit.  Ideas that any ethical and reasonable examiner would support and vote for.   

  

Joe
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Re: American Polygraph Association Elections: Race for president-elect pits Daniel Mangan against Patrick O'Burke
Reply #148 - Feb 25th, 2016 at 6:51am
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Ex Member wrote on Feb 25th, 2016 at 4:24am:
Dan,
What would happen if the APA suddenly considered you unworthy of membership and there was a consensus to simply give you the boot? I think by attacking the religious beliefs of fellow members, you are giving them grounds to accomplish exactly that.


Ok I must have missed something.  Where have he attacked the religious beliefs of other examiners?  Did I miss something.

Also, the APA, is the first organization in polygraph that has instituted an official antitrust policy.  The FTC has made it very clear in past rulings, it does not like private professional associations restricting any truthful criticism of a competitor.  It is my understanding that the FTC does recognize that slander and libel as a line though.  

There are times that Dan walks that fence very carefully, and makes me nervous.  

Anyway, the APA, is going to be careful not to do anything that would leave them open to that kind of liability.  That is one of the reasons I am telling dan, that things are changing in a positive direction.  When I heard them talking about antitrust issues at APA last year, I was encouraged and hopeful for the future of this industry for the first time in years.  

Dan walks a fine line sometimes with the bylaws that are in place, which is why I pop up now and again in the hopes of talking sense to him, sometimes I will call him and say "are you out of your f&#king mind"

Again, I fear that someday, they will ostracize him the way Texas tried to do me.  

I don't think that will happen, and I will tell you why bluntly.  The only time I have ever seen the Industry (generalizing, but referring to Texas, rather than the industry as a whole.  Just a disclaimer) go after anyone, is when someone can back up their claims against parts of the industry.  The only person seen as a threat, is the person with evidence.  They do not see Dan as a threat, because he lacks the smoking gun evidence to back up his claims.

I am a threat, because I can, not only back up my claims against TAPE, Andy Sheppard, Stuart Erivin, Woods, Hubbard, Rios, and the rest of their little clan, I have offered to step up to a polygraph about my claims, so long as they did so about their claims against me.  As you know, they have run like hell from the very test they sell and that has been well documented.  

I have been accused of libel and slander so many times, I have made some of my claims over and over again to keep a cause of action alive so they can sue me whenever they like.  Fact is, they know I have evidence of my claims and a libel and slander claim in court would easily be proven to be frivolous.

No instead, they try to file ethics complaints on me, within the industry, because they know I will be forced to fight it, cost me money, stress, and angst.  Going to court with a frivolous lawsuit will cost them money, and public embarrassment.  An ethics complaint within the industry costs them nothing, and there are no consequences for lying in the complaint.  They also do it in the hopes that other organizations will march in lockstep with Texas and expel me for telling the truth; and have the ability to prove what I say.  

Dan has said much worse than I ever have that brings the industry, as a whole, into discredit; with little to no, smoking gun evidence, to back up some of his claims.  This is not in dispute.  Personally I think Dan does it to poke the bear.  But these same people who file ethics complaints against me for the documented truth about them, haven't, and won't file a complaint against him, because he is not a threat.

But if someone ever does, the APA will no doubt tread very carefully in proceeding, and no doubt, consult legal council in regard to any FTC issues.  If the APA does proceed with any complaint, it means that all their ducks are in a row and Dan has an uphill fight.  

I think Dan will have to cross a pretty big line for that to happen
« Last Edit: Feb 25th, 2016 at 7:11am by Joe McCarthy »  

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Re: American Polygraph Association Elections: Race for president-elect pits Daniel Mangan against Patrick O'Burke
Reply #149 - Feb 25th, 2016 at 7:10am
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Actually, they are more like snarky comments than attacks. I don't know the rules of the APA, but many organizations frown upon such things as referring to someone's religion, sexual preferences...etc.
  
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