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Failed poly but innocent! (Read 10201 times)
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Failed poly but innocent!
Dec 11th, 2008 at 1:18am
Mark & Quote Quote 
OK - here's the long story....

Monday morning a meeting was held at work stating that all of us that had access to money that was stolen would be taking a polygraph either Tuesday or Wednesday, except for one person who was out for medical reasons and would be tested at a later date. áWe were also told that the polygrapher is the company that did David Vitter's prostitutes exam. áSo being the curious George I am I looked it up and found that to be Edward Gelb of Intercept, Inc. (who appears to work alone). áAlong with my search I also found that the EPPA laws were not being followed - AT ALL! á

So I go to take my first of a three segment exam (each lasting less than 3-5 minutes). áAnd I'm handed a two-page form turned to the 2nd page and asked to sign. áWhen asked for time to read it I was told that it was just the standard release form. áI informed the examiner that I was not comfortable signing the release form since the correct procedures had not been followed, and that I had stumbled upon the EPPA guidelines on the internet (since they aren't posted anywhere in the building where I work) and was aware that I was not given any written notice prior to the exam. áShe stated that if I was going to take the exam then I needed to sign the release. áI asked for a copy that I have not yet been given.

So I take the three series of short questioning (no written questions were ever presented - no pre or post interview). áI'm asked is my name **, do I live in ***, have I ever stolen from a previous employer (to which I honestly answered YES) a couple of questions regarding my involvement in the crime (I had none!!) and had I lied to anyone in authority that trusted me (again I honestly answered YES).

I report to work and the owner calls me to the office where the examiner was waiting and they explained to me that I had the highest rate of deception on the crime questions. áI found out later that the examiner had also disclosed the results to other employees and stated that I was combative before the exam started. á So I asked for ácopy of the results or to at least look at them because I felt that there was only one question that I replied dishonestly to (have you ever stolen anything from employer) - my first reaction was "NO" but then all the free drinks I've poured myself an condiment cups I took for mouthwash at home came rushing back so I'm sure I bombed that one and I wanted to see what the answer to that question looked like compared to the questions that just made me nervous. áAnyway - I was told that I wouldn't be able to tell anything from the charts and a written report by the examiner would eventually be made available to me. áI then asked what company they were with because neither one of them looked much like Ed Gelb (saw pic on the net) they didn't know who that was and I said "you never worked for interecept, inc?" áShe'd never heard of that either. áSo I asked my employer "didn't you tell us this company was so reputable that Larry Flint hired them to do David Vitter's prostitute?" áMy employer then started back tracking, saying that she never said that - she said it 10 times in front of dozens of people. áSo now I'm thinking that she got some yahoo's that would do it the cheapest ($500 for first exam and $75 for each additional sounds extremely cheap) and I pissed the examiner off when I stated that I wanted read what I was signing since I already knew the laws weren't being followed. á

Also - after we all took our test we (wrongly) compared questions and the others were asked all sorts of stuff about things very pointed towards that person - the pot head was asked if they every bought or sold drugs while at work, etc. and I was only asked questions directly relating to the incident. áI feel like I was set-up some how. áI live and work in a very small, close-knit neighborhood and this is defaming my character. áI am being given the opportunity to take another test with a company that I find, but am on suspension pending that exam. áMy permanent employement status will be discussed after that test.

I have not read about any of the counter-measures because I didn't need or want to try to 'cheat' but I'm freaking out! á

I am pretty sure I have a case to sue my employer because of all the EPPA rules that have been broken, and I don't want to do that, but she's put my job and my reputation in jeopardy by lying to us about who she hired and going with an unreputable company. áI would think that a 'reputable' polygrapher would have made sure the rules were followed, but they broke the rules themselves.

Comments, Advice anyone?
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Paste User Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: Failed poly but innocent!
Reply #1 - Dec 11th, 2008 at 1:52am
Mark & Quote Quote 
Indeed, based on your account, it would indeed appear that your employer has committed a multiple-count violation of the Employee Polygraph Protection Act and could be liable for substantial damages. I think at this point, rather than finding another polygrapher for a second opinion, you should be looking for a lawyer with experience in labor law. If you don't know one, Martindale's free "Lawyer Locator" service may be helpful:

http://www.martindale.com

Now regarding your polygraph "test," you should be aware that some of the questions were probable-lie "control" questions, your answers to which were secretly expected to be less than truthful. For example, the question about stealing from a previous employer was a control question. It is secretly expected that everyone is guilty of at least some minor pilferage. When you admitted to taking drinks and cups from a past employer, the polygrapher should have modified the question to something like, "Other than what you told me, have you ever stolen from a previous employer?" When you answer "no" to this modified question, your answer is still presumed to be less than truthful, and your reactions to this question would have been compared to your reactions to a corresponding relevant question about the stolen money. The question about having ever lied to a person in a position of authority who trusted you is also a probable-lie control question.

A person who reacts most strongly to the control questions passes the polygraph, while one who reacts more strongly to the relevant questions fails. This procedure is highly simplistic and has no basis in science. Moreover, it's inherently biased against the truthful, because the more candidly and fully one attempts to answer the control questions, and as a result feels less anxiety when answering them, the more likely one is to wrongly fail.

For more on polygraphy, see our free book, The Lie Behind the Lie Detector, which you can download in PDF format here:

https://antipolygraph.org/lie-behind-the-lie-detector.pdf

I would be interested to know the name of the polygrapher who conducted your polygraph examination, if you'd be willing to share that information. If you'd prefer not to post it publicly, you can e-mail me directly at maschke@antipolygraph.org.
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George W. Maschke
E-mail: maschke@antipolygraph.org
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Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
WWW George W. Maschke  
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Paste User Name in Quick Reply Box SCREWEDINAP
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Re: Failed poly but innocent!
Reply #2 - Dec 11th, 2008 at 2:05am
Mark & Quote Quote 
I'll keep reading the book - I now wish I hadn't been so damn honest.  I truly feel this 'failed' result is because of an unqualified, perhaps even biased polygrapher.

As soon as I have the company name I'll email it to you.  Since we weren't not given anything in writing, the only thing I know is the examiner was a female named Dawn and her 'observer' was named Steve.
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Paste User Name in Quick Reply Box G Scalabr
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Re: Failed poly but innocent!
Reply #3 - Dec 11th, 2008 at 2:23am
Mark & Quote Quote 
Quote:
I'll keep reading the book - I now wish I hadn't been so damn honest. áI truly feel this 'failed' result is because of an unqualified, perhaps even biased polygrapher.

As soon as I have the company name I'll email it to you. áSince we weren't not given anything in writing, the only thing I know is the examiner was a female named Dawn and her 'observer' was named Steve.


When it comes to detecting deception, you cannot single out a particular polygraph operator as being unqualified. You need to keep in mind that the field as a whole is incompetent at this task.

When things go south, the polygraph establishment loves to blame the examiner. Still, the cold hard fact is that NO polygraph examiner has demonstrated the ability to determine truth from deception at better than chance levels in a peer-reviewed study conducted under field conditions.

You failed, not because of examiner error, but because you were judged with an invalid "test."

As George said, you need to get an attorney who specializes in labor law ASAP. As you pointed out, it appears that the EPPA was severely violated in this case.
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« Last Edit: Dec 11th, 2008 at 11:32am by G Scalabr »  
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Re: Failed poly but innocent!
Reply #4 - Dec 15th, 2008 at 9:26pm
Mark & Quote Quote 
scenario: took the test and failed but innocent!!! an admitted thief passed and still has their job.  myself now unemployed.  want to know if in the state of nevada is the cvsa is admissable in court.  from what i heard it is admissable in california.  to boot i found out i was unemployed because the stand in manager informed a client in front of an employee before i had heard from hr that was no longer suspended but fired.  and to add insult to injury the big boss had covered 1/2 of the theft by writing a check and covering it.  visual tapes show that no body including me did it but the result of the test was taken over the tape.
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Re: Failed poly but innocent!
Reply #5 - Dec 16th, 2008 at 6:50pm
Mark & Quote Quote 
SCREWEDINAP,

Your female examiner was Dawn Walsh from Arrow Polygraph out of Southern CA. áShe belongs to a group called Polygraph Examiners of America run by a guy named John Grogan out of Los Angeles. áThis guy Grogan has been in hot water a whole bunch of times along with several of his folks. á(This guy Grogan created some problems for a couple I know who went to him for a á>:(polygraph.)

George is right. áNever mind a second opinion, your employer did not follow the law and you should find a good attorney. áYou may even have the opportunity to go after the examiner. áI don't know what credentials or training you need in CA to be an examiner. áFrom what I know, the company cannot fire you just based on the polygraph. á

I'm sorry to hear your boss lied to the employees.
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Re: Failed poly but innocent!
Reply #6 - Dec 16th, 2008 at 8:22pm
Mark & Quote Quote 
To both victims

I don't know either state's laws, but i'll bet neither allows what happened to you both. I would think neither would accept anyone being fired from a job based solely on the polygraph or CVSA.  More good advice get a lawyer and sue.
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Re: Failed poly but innocent!
Reply #7 - Dec 16th, 2008 at 9:03pm
Mark & Quote Quote 
Update - I still have not been given the results of my test. áMagnus, thank you for the info on the examiners. á

The day after I was suspended, I found a local polygraph examiner who is on my state's board of examiners, so I would assume this examiner would be more reputable. áWhen my employer contacted the new examiner and explained the situation, the examiner stated that she did not believe in re-testing (keep in mind, I'm being told this by the same employer that lied to me) and that because we weren't given proper notice of the exam that the results needed to be thrown out and we would re-test in 3 months. áI, again, asked for my test results so I could contact an examiner on my own and at least have them look at the graph results and give an opinion, but nothing yet.. So I have my job back, but with a huge cloud of suspicion over me which is causing me a great deal of stress. áBecause the results were not kept confidential initially, even our customers know what's going on! á

Since I got my job back, all of the employees were also asked to sign a confidentiality agreement and back-date it to the date the test was given, áso no one is to talk about anything in conjunction with the test, or other aspects of the business for that matter.

I have left messages for two labor law attorneys in my area but neither has called me back yet. áMaybe with more details they would be more interested. á

I don't want to stay at the job because it is now too stressful, but I don't want to leave and look guilty. áI was hesitant to sue at first, but the way I see it, my employer has screwed us both. áFor whatever reason she pinpointed me and had the examiner target me when I didn't even have the opportunity to commit this crime, so now she has an unknown thief working for her waiting to steal again and blame it on someone else.
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Re: Failed poly but innocent!
Reply #8 - Dec 16th, 2008 at 10:13pm
Mark & Quote Quote 
hi.. you are calling the wrong people.. you need to talk to the Department of Labor..they investigate and initiate action.. if they find a violation then you can sue... based upon what you've said I see a number of violations of the EPPA  including the confidentiality agreement

gary davis
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Paste User Name in Quick Reply Box T.M. Cullen
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Re: Failed poly but innocent!
Reply #9 - Dec 16th, 2008 at 10:20pm
Mark & Quote Quote 
Quote:
The day after I was suspended, I found a local polygraph examiner who is on my state's board of examiners, so I would assume this examiner would be more reputable.


What good is that given the fact that polygraphy is a "bogus" science?  Would it make you feel better going to a "psychic" who is a on the your state's "Psychic Board of Examiners"?  Put another way.  If a used car sales person ripped you off, would you go to another, more reputable  Lips Sealed used car salesman to help you?

Get REAL!

Quote:
I don't want to stay at the job because it is now too stressful....



If it gets to the point where it (the false accusations levied against youy) is affecting your health, go to a doctor and make sure it is documented (every step of the way) for later use by your attorney.  If your doctor deems the ill health affects (if any) attributed to your situation with this employer, file a WORKERS COMP CLAIM.  That should be a nice scoop of vanilla ice cream on your employer's apple pie.    Wink
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« Last Edit: Dec 17th, 2008 at 1:50am by T.M. Cullen »  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
 
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Re: Failed poly but innocent!
Reply #10 - Dec 17th, 2008 at 9:43am
Mark & Quote Quote 
I'll bet you a cup of coffee your employer lied to you again.  I bet you could be re-tested, but your employer found out she messed up and is back tracking.  The couple I know who went to the Grogan lie detector, ended up going to a another individual who resolved their issue. 

Sorry to hear your employer is not up front with you.
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Re: Failed poly but innocent!
Reply #11 - Dec 26th, 2008 at 7:21pm
Mark & Quote Quote 
Since i posted last the company caught the guy that had kept his job red handed stealing from exactly what had been being taken that I was suspended for.  I am still awaiting a decision on my employment but get no response anymore and they owe me for my week vacation and two bonuses i am due.
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Re: Failed poly but innocent!
Reply #12 - Aug 1st, 2011 at 6:34pm
Mark & Quote Quote 
My Fiance just failed a poly test really badly and I am scared. He is much younger than I am and is from another country. SO I agreed to marry him IF he took a poly test, which I paid $500 for. The administer, Mark, came to my place, ask us why I want the test and some background info, as to why I would ask about infidelity. I was allowed to ask 5 questions (like have you kissed other girls, etc). Mark told me out of 9999, you would "have to get at least 7,000 to be considered an honest person". SADLY my guy got a score of 1,734. So he failed miserably.
My guy CRIED real tears for HOURS telling me he is innocent and this test must be wrong. He swears on his Mothers life he has been loyal etc. Is there a chance he was accused falsely? I would love your opinion

Thanks

Dottie
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Paste User Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: Failed poly but innocent!
Reply #13 - Aug 2nd, 2011 at 12:12am
Mark & Quote Quote 
Quote:
My Fiance just failed a poly test really badly and I am scared. He is much younger than I am and is from another country. SO I agreed to marry him IF he took a poly test, which I paid $500 for. The administer, Mark, came to my place, ask us why I want the test and some background info, as to why I would ask about infidelity. I was allowed to ask 5 questions (like have you kissed other girls, etc). Mark told me out of 9999, you would "have to get at least 7,000 to be considered an honest person". SADLY my guy got a score of 1,734. So he failed miserably.
My guy CRIED real tears for HOURS telling me he is innocent and this test must be wrong. He swears on his Mothers life he has been loyal etc. Is there a chance he was accused falsely? I would love your opinion

Thanks

Dottie


Dottie,

Yes, there is every chance that your fiancÚ was accused falsely. Polygraph "testing" has no scientific basis. It's a pseudoscientific fraud that actually depends on the polygraph operator lying to and otherwise deceiving the person being "tested" about the nature of the procedure. Worse still, polygraphy has an inherent bias against truthful persons.

For more on why polygraph results are not to be relied upon, see our book, The Lie Behind the Lie Detector (1 mb PDF).

Regarding the harm that can be caused by misplaced reliance on polygraphy in personal relationships, see Gary Smith's statement, "How I Failed My Polygraph Exam" (PDF).
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George W. Maschke
E-mail: maschke@antipolygraph.org
E-mail: georgemaschke@mail2tor.com
PGP Public Key: 316A947C
PGP Public Key (offline): 2BF4374B
Bitmessage: BM-GtK3fjwGHLLcdRRsYU9eHRdPGxGabbuL
Twitter: georgemaschke
Surespot: georgemaschke
Tel/SMS: 1-424-835-1225
Encrypted voice and text chat (XMPP via Jitsi): georgemaschke@jit.si
Postal mail: Van Trigtstraat 53, 2597 VX The Hague, The Netherlands
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
WWW George W. Maschke  
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Re: Failed poly but innocent!
Reply #14 - Aug 2nd, 2011 at 5:03am
Mark & Quote Quote 
Thank you SO much George. What a relief to read your info. x Smiley
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