Notguilty1, You are wrong about polygraph being a scam and as  to your claim that any attempt to keep polygraph going is futile, well you are wrong about that as well. 

The combined efforts of you Dr. Maschke and all the rest haven't been able to change ANYTHING about polygraph in the last 8 years.  The petition that boasts 1333 signatures to "end polygraph screening" has less than 1200 signatures if you don't count voided lines, joke names, first name only and duplicates. The petition started in 2002 and has averaged less than 200 signatures a year.  All of your complaints have not caused a single agency that was using polygraph to stop and you can't really say that you have prevented anyone from implementing its use either.  Recent research indicates that honest people who try to use Dr. Maschke's techniques to help themselves pass are actually more likely to fail. If they are caught attempting countermeasures on a pre-employment test, their credibility is destroyed. You are probably doing more harm than good to otherwise truthful examinees.

Every year that antipolygraph.org has existed the number of courts admitting polygraph results has still increased. Every year the number of states using it to monitor convicts on parole has still increased. All the while polygraph research marches on. Ignoring the research that has occurred since the NAS report won't make it go away and you should realize that your chance of abolishing the use of polygraph in your lifetime is somewhere south of a snowball in Hades.

As to me being alone here, If I needed any help to deal with your severe lack of knowledge and  near total absence of anything remotely resembling intelligence I would hire a jackass and teach him how to type. You are living proof that it can be done, and I'm willing to bet that the one I train will have fewer typing errors. 

Sancho Panza

SanchoPanza wrote on Sep 27^th, 2008 at 3:03am:



Sancho,
Again I need to educate you about if nothing else, my views.
Fact is that Polygraph IS nothing more than a interrogation tool. That the "test" relies on the examines belief that is can actually detect deception. 

There have been many personal experiences posted here of people who in fact have failed the test and been truthful. I am as you know one of them.

I have no interest in counter measures and did not attempt any during my polygraph. I was amongst those you rely on that believed I had nothing to worry about since I had nothing to lie about.
I do not know if they work and have never advised anyone to try.
As a matter of fact, I have discouraged posters here that intended on lying to even take the polygraph and job, regardless of polygraphs ability to detect the lies.

I do know however that since the machine does not detect lies I can see how some may be encouraged to help their chances better than a  coin toss. 
I Can't say if I would or wouldn't attempt it.
Again, my message here is not to promote counter measures but to deter the use of polygraph as a lie detector which it is not. And to show the lie that is polygraph.

Your insistence that our attempts to eliminate polygraphs are futile means nothing since if enough people get informed ( a concept that petrifies you I'm sure) the polygraph will not work as currently used 
" an interrogation tool dependent on the ignorance of the examinee to be effective at obtaining a confession" all others who refuse to confess are just rejected regardless of their truthfulness. 


Lastly Sancho, you personal attacks on me just go to show your fear of what I have to say. You have tried to glorify yourself through many avenues that have nothing to do with polygraph and if your knowledge in those fields rival your stand on polygraph I shutter to think what you actually know.
I will not participate in a personal attack volley with you since my message is not aimed at you but to inform and possibly educate those like me that have suffered in some way at the hands of people like you.
If your assessment of me was in fact correct, " having a severe lack of intelligence" and akin to less than a jackass then what pray-tell does that say about your continued responses to my posts Hmmmm?

You should really compose yourself if you're to be taken with any kind of seriousness here.

Notguilty1. First let me say  that any comparison that I made between you and a typing jackass was purely intentional and a response Dr. Maschke's refusal to take you to task for your repeated personal attacks on me. I informed him days ago of your repeated name calling and he failed to respond. If he had enforced his own so called "Rules" a response would have been unnecessary. It appears as though over time he is consistently more vigilant enforcing rules against those who disagree with him than he is with anyone who agrees with him. You complaining about a personal attack after the things you have written about me here is laughable and probably symptomatic of your constant portrayal of yourself as a victim. All that being said, if an apology is owed here, it would only be to the jackass who might actually have a cause of action against me for defamation of its character. 

All this site really provides is 2 things #1 a pity party for complainers like you and bad information from a book that tries to justify lying, encourage lying, and even offering suggestions on how to lie. Those people who are confused about what they should do may be worth saving before they take the bad advice offered here and destroy their chance at a career. Taking the advice offered in Dr. Maschke's book can only lead them back here to join the pity party. The time I spend here is worth it if it prevents even one person from ruining his life by taking Dr. Maschke's advice. Recent research indicates that an honest person who attempts Dr. Maschke's techniques significantly reduces their chance of passing a polygraph test. 

If you want to have any chance of changing polygraph law, you're going to need 12,000 signatures not 1200 and at the present rate of signers trickling into this board that may occur in about 60 years. That is if the board is still here in 60 years. Believe me I am pretty unconcerned that this site will have any long term effect on polygraph. My concern is the negative effect that it may have on individuals who come here and take the bad advice offered in the book. 

Let us assume, without concession that the techniques taught in Dr. Maschke's allowed one child molester to fool one naive examiner who was unfamiliar with techniques on disclosing counter measures. 
Would you concede that this site has done society a disservice? or Would you count this hypothetical child molester’s subsequent victims as acceptable casualties in this crusade against polygraph?  A crusade you joined simply because you were personally embarrassed by failing a polygraph yourself. Exactly how many raped and murdered children would it take to salve your hurt feelings? I'm betting you'll try to change the subject here rather than respond contextually.

Don’t worry about my composure, you couldn’t tilt me with a D-5 CAT

Sancho Panza

PS

Quote:


TC I have carefully refrained from commenting on any specific relationship that might exist between you and Notguilty1.  What exactly are you talking about?

sp

How could there be "personal" attacks?  You guys are using anonymous names. 

As for George, he has admonished me a number of times when I got out of line.

How serious do you think GM is going to be with someone, who has accused him of working for the Iranians and promoting child molestation, when they go crying to him about personal attacks being made against them?

Stop whining!  If you can't take the truth, go back to your polygraphs!  There's a little irony for you!

TC

P.S.  Are you Sackett?

Twoblock,

While I vehemently disagree with Dr. Maschke's postition on polygraph and have been severely critical of his book and the things he is trying to teach, I have never accused him of working for the Iranians nor have I ever accused him of promoting child molestation. I have commented that the information he provides is done without restriction and is available to both terrorists and child molestors. Two groups that would have significantly more at stake in failing a polygraph than a job applicant. I believe that Dr. Maschke is aware that the parts of his book dealing with attempted countermeasures has been translated into Farsi and Eastern Persian. I have no reason at all to believe that he is the translator allthough considering his docorate in near eastern languages he might be well capable. I believe he knows that his book is in use by the enemies of the United States and if you leave the matches laying in the floor you have to share a bit of the responsibilty with the kid who starts the fire. There is a difference between attacking his ideas and attacking him personally whether you can see it or not.  I'm sure Dr. Maschke can tell the difference. 

When I accuse him of promoting and endorsing lying, I am referring to his book and his statements. Just today he encouraged someone to lie by writing;
Quote:
 
I find it mystifying why anyone would choose to believe someone who maintains that lying is an acceptable way to deal with a prospective employer especially when applying for a position of public trust. 

Without getting into your pointless back and forth about whether or not you consider polygraph to be scientific you have to realize that error rate is an unavoidable fact. Error rates are made up of false positives and false negatives and I don't think polygraphers like them any more than the people who post on this board. It is impossible to eliminate error in any scientific test procedure. Research is ongoing to reduce error rate and identify factors that contribute to errors, but it never will be eliminated completely in polygraph or any other procedure you might think of, despite of someones view that somehow there exists some type of infallible scientific test out there somewhere. Polygraph research sometimes doesn't always produce identical accuracy and validity measurements because the focus of the research may concern a specific testing procedure in one study and a different procedure in another study or it may be a field study versus a laboratory study. (DNA Lab Studies always turn out different than DNA Field studies for example. Another complication is that you are dealing with people rather than test tubes. To say that polygraphers can't even agree on polygraph accuracy because the studies don't have idetical results is an irresponsible exaggeration. I'm betting that you will be unable to find an expert in any field you can name to state that his tests don't have errors. Polygraph may not be infallible, but it is getting better, but its detractors want to stop it without giving it an opportunity to reach it's potential. 

You seem to ignore that most of the scientific principles that support and explain powered human flight came after a couple of intelligent high school dropouts with no scientific credentials put the first real airplane into the sky at kittyhawk. Using some of the same arguments that are used here against polygraph, flight research would have been halted because they just built an airplane instead of a Space Shuttle. 

Every time you try to focus only on polygraph errors you ignore the astronomically greater number of its successes. For every Gary Ridgeway that you can produce that apparently did not show deception on his exam, Polygraph could provide hundreds if not thousands of murderers brought to justice with the participation of polygraph. I am aware of several cases, later confirmed by confession and physical evidence where a person who was not even considered to be a prime suspect was given a polygraph which indicated deception and once the investigation was focused in their direction evidence was discovered which established their culpability. If not for Polygraph the evidence might never have been looked for or only stumbled upon by sheer luck or accident.   It is simply not fair or responsible to ignore the successes based on the errors. 

Sancho Panza

PS     Notguilty1 wrote Quote:
what does where someone is born have to do with anything?

PSS   Mr. Cullen  No I am not Sackett.  Are you Twoblock?

SP

Quote:


I guess my response to these two questions would be that they aren't really fighting for their integrity by complaining about polygraph results. Integrity is a quality or state of being of sound moral principle; uprightness, honesty, and sincerity. If this truly exists in a person it cannot be affected by someone elses opinion or perceptions. Conversely,false integrity AKA the appearance or claim of integrity is of great concern to those who lack the real thing. Those who have the real thing don't have to worry about it. 

A false positive on a polygraph examination shouldn't compromise ones integrity in the slightest. 
Lying on a polygraph test or attempting countermeasures either damages it severely,or it was never there in the first place. 

I assure you I will never have to fight anyone for my integrity because I own it and while I could possibly ( but extremely unlikely ) give it away, NOONE can take it.  In short the only person I would ever have to fight for my integrity is me. 

Once again if someone fails a polygraph test and they were telling the truth their integrity remains intact, and can't be taken away.  However if they failed the test because they lied and then proclaim they told the truth, integrity is something they lacked to begin with and it STILL cannot be taken away.
 
Sancho Panza

Dear SanchoPanza,

If someone is truthful and they are a false positive, you state their integrity is intact.  The person's integrity is not intact when the accuser is a sworn law enforcement officier of the United States.  The FBI uses Special Agents, sworn to uphold the Constitution of the United States, as examiners.  They are given the benefit and weight of such color of law in their duties.  Their judgement is given the benefit of a doubt against all who apply in a closed door room with no recording devices.  If such recording devices are used, the applicant does not have access to any data resulting from such recording devices.

For all effective purposes, an accusation or inference by the FBI that a person is "not within acceptable parameters" without admission or substantiated back ground investigation is "black-balling" to the applicant's career in the Federal and State law enforcement community.

There is no background check if the examiner or agency thinks that the applicant does not meet their standards.  There is no verification that the accused "deception" ever occurred.  The only place it occurred for sure is in the examiner's mind.

This site is not filled with a bunch of whiners and losers.  Many people are trying to figure out how the system could go so wrong. They are searching for answers to make sense of a process that has failed them.

Integrity is an abstract.  To those fire fighters, law enforcement, and military persons, integrity is something that cannot be bought or sold.  When the United States Government takes that feeling of integrity away with the polygraph process, it is a feeling of violation which does not easily go away.

Regards.