George

While I often disagree with your positions, I grudgingly give the devil his due.  You maintain the most informative polygraph related site on the internet.  Hands down, slam dunk, bar none.

You have my respect, if not my agreement.

Eric,

If the facts set forth in the plaintiff's petition are indeed facts, then treatment providers have no legal basis for dictating to which polygraph operators sex offenders under their supervision go. I think a prima facie case has been made that the arrangement between Deborah Moore on the one hand, and Richard Wood & Associates and Behavioral Measures & Forensic Services Southwest, Inc. on the other, was improper, if not illegal. Of course, it is possible that there are other relevant facts of which we remain unaware, but I don't think the allegations in this lawsuit should be dismissed with a wave of the hand. Certainly not by anyone who professes to be "dedicated to truth" (American Polygraph Association motto).

EJohnson wrote on Mar 24^th, 2008 at 1:40pm:



When I look at the exhibits, it seems the examiner has a point. Looks like he was told one thing and experienced another.

Sounds to me that he was under the impression (and rightfully so) that this was a county that he could "prove his worth", and when he found out he was sold a load of crap he took a stand. 

Looking at the petition, I see this is not someone fresh out of school with a few years under his belt. From what I am reading, this man is no unknown or upstart base on who he has tested for in the past. 

Tarrant County is known for being a "Closed Market" and it seems that this guy is the only one with balls enough to stand up for himself. He's not the only examiner in the area to see the good ole boyism in the market. But, he is the only one to stand up and point it out. 

All he has to do is get a few therapists and examiners on his side and game over. From what I see on another discussion in this board, one of the defendants have more to worry about than this action. Wow!

One question I have to ask; if most of the offenders are going to one or two providers, how long are they waiting to take polygraphs? I ask this because if an examiner can only do 5 tests per day, then that is 25 slots per week per examiner. Most polygraph firms do law-enforcement/fire fighter pre-employment, attorney polygraphs, EEPA, and infidelity. If one were to play the numbers game, it's easy to see that there is more than likely as waiting period that may be unacceptable to the general public in regards to these potentially dangerous criminals having more time to possibly re-offend.

Sounds to me like the examiners that are so concerned for the community safety care more for their wallets. This also brings up the point of possible kickbacks. 

Sounds like this action will answer a lot of questions. I know I’ll be watching.

EJohnson wrote on Mar 24^th, 2008 at 7:35pm:


No personal dog in the fight, and timing has nothing to do with it. I read the petition and feel, in my opinion that it does have merit. 

I think everyone has a dog in this fight that is in favor of a free market economy. I can understand why therapists like you would like to control as many aspects of you offenders lives as possible. But the use of only a few polygraph examiners creates an environment of the polygraph examiner giving you the opinion you want rather than the opinion based on the chart tracings. No one likes giving customers bad news, especially customers that send thousands of dollars a year in business. Don't say that people don't think like this, you know they do.

Any examiner that has taken the JPCOT course and passed is qualified to run these tests in the state of Texas. Debra Moore should know better because she helped write the guidelines as well as others listed as defendants. A man saw an injustice, stood up for himself, and may have uncovered a bit more that expected.

As persons in the "containment approach", we should avoid even the appearance of impropriety. The "containment approach", that is a joke too. Probation never co-operates with the polygraph examiner. The examiner is lucky to get probation on the phone or get documents faxed from probation. In many cases the therapists arrogance and ego make some things darn near impassable to get anything done. In almost every case both the therapists and the probation offices think they themselves are polygraph examiners, advising and educating offenders on something which they themselves have little to no training in. Which is, by the way, unethical. 
The examiners and therapists brought this on themselves. Looks to me that they have kicked this sleeping dragon and now they are running scared. The way it looks, it may be 1988 all over again.

Yes, this is Joe McCarthy.  I have been watching this discussion board ever since the suit became “public”.

I looked over the discussions and considered every point.  Some are good and others are just plain piss poor. While thinking, pontificating, and doing deep thought brain thingies in my mind on the events for the past few months, I realized that the answer was right in front of me.  POLYGRAPH.

This is a case about polygraph examiners and therapists that believe in polygraph. Probation relies on polygraph as a tool it to put people back in prison.  Let’s note that some of the people belong there.  Clearly, they do not have a problem using polygraph as a tool in their arsenal. So here is what I was thinking.

I said to myself “Self, what if everyone stipulated to a polygraph exam?  Everyone, the examiners, the therapists, even the two probation officials.  Have an INDEPENDENT polygraph examiner come in and polygraph each and every person on the front captioning of the lawsuit except for the lawyers.  We don’t want to blow up the instrument.  I already caught them in a few lies.  I will let them guess which ones.

The tests will consist of relevant questions agreed upon by all examiners, therapists, probation officials, and their lawyers.  All parties will be identified by number chosen by lot.  A representative of the Court and the INDEPENDENT examiner will be the only two people who will know the true identity of each number. 

The test format will have to be an R&I because if there is anyone that could get around a control question test, it’s a polygraph examiner.  Because therapists and the probation officials can be coached, they will be given an R&I as well.  After the charts are collected, they will be scored numerically through ROSS and globally by the administrating examiner.  Copies will be made of all charts with the identifying information redacted from them and new identifier will be put on the charts to ensure that this next step will be one hundred fair.  The only person who will know the true identity of each chart will be the Judge and his representative.  All the newly identified charts will be given to each polygraph examiner involved in this action and one additional examiner who is not involved with this action, who is not the original examiner, and who is no one that the original examiner may know. 

The charts will be blind quality controlled by each polygraph examiner through ROSS and globally.  The score sheet will then be attached to each chart with a notarized affidavit.  For all you guys that do not know what ROSS is, I will be more than happy to educate you.  The scored charts along with the affidavit and score sheets will be sent back to the court where a court officer will then properly identify each chart.  The identities of each chart will then be released to the lawyers and their clients.   Inconclusives will count as a DI and obvious miscoring will leave the examiner open to perjury, contempt of court, and any sanction available.

If they are telling the truth that there is no intentional exclusive agreements to manipulate the market, offering and/or receiving of kickbacks, favoritism, creating monopolies, or intentionally pushing of anyone out of this market by unlawful restriction of trade, then they should not have a problem with taking the exam that is relied on so heavily by all the parties involved.  I know that I have no problem with it because I have done nothing in bad faith.

It should be interesting to see how many step forward. 

The reason why I am posting this on Antipolygraph.org is because I believe that this will be the only forum in which I can be heard.  On top of that, I can rest assured that the responses will be watched very closely by all. 

I will try to keep the people on this board updated on the responses received or the sounds of deafening silence that I hear.  I will also be setting up a blog so regular updates can be posted along with all documents that are of public record.   

Maybe this will put the issue to rest.  Maybe it will aggravate the issue.  No matter what it does, it will cause discussion and provoke thought about the polygraph industry and if the people in the industry are truly “dedicated to the truth”.

I have thrown down the gauntlet.  I have called you all out.  I will be counting the day for a response and will post the response of each person either here or on the blog.

The fax is on people.

Now in the eloquent words of Mick Foley

“Have a nice day! "

Joe McCarthy

Joe:  Two comments/questions regarding your comments quoted below:

First one, are you admitting here on anti-polygraph.org" that a polygraph test can be manipulated?   

Secondly, I predict "0" polygraph examiners will take you up on your offer.  Afterall, they know the "truth."



Joe McCarthy wrote on Apr 20^th, 2008 at 12:27am:

What "defense list"?  Can you please post a link with this list?

TC