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thebigmainer New User Offline Posts: 18 Location: maine Joined: Aug 9^th, 2007 Gender:	question Jan 11^th, 2008 at 8:52pm	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	does a hiring agency or law enforcement academy that requires a polygraph have to follow the APA's rules on polygraphs? for example on their site the APA says that a polygraph shouldn't be used as the only tool in the hiring process. do agency's have to follow this? or can they say if you don't pass one, even with a clean background you still can't attend the police academy. and is it good practice to do so?


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nopolycop Especially Senior User Offline Posts: 383 Joined: Oct 20^th, 2007	Re: question Reply #1 - Jan 11^th, 2008 at 9:22pm	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	thebigmainer wrote on Jan 11^th, 2008 at 8:52pm: does a hiring agency or law enforcement academy that requires a polygraph have to follow the APA's rules on polygraphs? for example on their site the APA says that a polygraph shouldn't be used as the only tool in the hiring process. do agency's have to follow this? or can they say if you don't pass one, even with a clean background you still can't attend the police academy. and is it good practice to do so? An agency must follow state law, (federal law if it is federal agency) and it's own policies and procedures regarding poly tests. If state law or it's own policies and procedures reference the APA policy, then yes, they must follow that policy. As far as your second question, since I don't feel the poly is a good tool to be used in LE screening because of the plethora of false positives, I would obviously answer that question in the negative.

	"Although the degree of reliability of polygraph evidence may depend upon a variety of identifiable factors, there is simply no way to know in a particular case whether a polygraph examiner's Conclusion is accurate, because certain doubts and uncertainties plague even the best polygraph exams." (Justice Clarence Thomas writing in United States v. Scheffer, 523 U.S. 303, 118 S.Ct. 1261, 140 L.Ed.2d 413, 1998.)
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Sergeant1107 God Member Offline Posts: 730 Location: Connecticut, USA Joined: May 21^st, 2005 Gender:	Re: question Reply #2 - Jan 12^th, 2008 at 3:33am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	thebigmainer wrote on Jan 11^th, 2008 at 8:52pm: does a hiring agency or law enforcement academy that requires a polygraph have to follow the APA's rules on polygraphs? for example on their site the APA says that a polygraph shouldn't be used as the only tool in the hiring process. do agency's have to follow this? or can they say if you don't pass one, even with a clean background you still can't attend the police academy. and is it good practice to do so? In Connecticut an applicant has to pass, not just take, a polygraph in order to attend the POST academy. Although I haven't taken a polygraph in a while, when I last did there were never any follow up tests conducted if you failed, even when the examiner claimed you only failed on one question. You passed and continued with the application process, or you failed and that was it. It is my understanding that such is still the way pre-employment polygraphs are conducted here. From polygraph examiners' comments on this board it seems the conventional wisdom is to administer specific incident testing if a police applicant fails the polygraph. I don't know if that is or is not a rule with the APA, but either way it is not how pre-employment polygraphs are conducted in Connecticut.

	Lorsque vous utilisez un argumentum ad hominem, tout le monde sait que vous êtes intellectuellement faillite.
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Donna.Taylor User Offline Posts: 37 Joined: Oct 23^rd, 2007	Re: question Reply #3 - Jan 12^th, 2008 at 4:11am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	Sergeant1107 wrote on Jan 12^th, 2008 at 3:33am: thebigmainer wrote on Jan 11^th, 2008 at 8:52pm: does a hiring agency or law enforcement academy that requires a polygraph have to follow the APA's rules on polygraphs? for example on their site the APA says that a polygraph shouldn't be used as the only tool in the hiring process. do agency's have to follow this? or can they say if you don't pass one, even with a clean background you still can't attend the police academy. and is it good practice to do so? In Connecticut an applicant has to pass, not just take, a polygraph in order to attend the POST academy. Although I haven't taken a polygraph in a while, when I last did there were never any follow up tests conducted if you failed, even when the examiner claimed you only failed on one question. You passed and continued with the application process, or you failed and that was it. It is my understanding that such is still the way pre-employment polygraphs are conducted here. From polygraph examiners' comments on this board it seems the conventional wisdom is to administer specific incident testing if a police applicant fails the polygraph. I don't know if that is or is not a rule with the APA, but either way it is not how pre-employment polygraphs are conducted in Connecticut. Sarge, I don't see polygraphs going away until there is a better tool available. During the Myth Busters segment the Polygraph correctly identified 3 out of 3 - the MRI didn't correctly identify the individuals. If the problem you state exists in Connecticut - instead of venting at AP, why don’t you do something to get your state rules changed to require specific issue (follow-up) exams on DI calls on a multi-issue w/o admissions? At the very least, you could send a letter to the Chief’s with your concern and attach a copy of the APA policy.


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Sergeant1107 God Member Offline Posts: 730 Location: Connecticut, USA Joined: May 21^st, 2005 Gender:	Re: question Reply #4 - Jan 12^th, 2008 at 9:02am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	Donna.Taylor wrote on Jan 12^th, 2008 at 4:11am: Sarge, I don't see polygraphs going away until there is a better tool available. During the Myth Busters segment the Polygraph correctly identified 3 out of 3 - the MRI didn't correctly identify the individuals. If the problem you state exists in Connecticut - instead of venting at AP, why don’t you do something to get your state rules changed to require specific issue (follow-up) exams on DI calls on a multi-issue w/o admissions? At the very least, you could send a letter to the Chief’s with your concern and attach a copy of the APA policy. I have already discussed this at length with the Chief in my department. The problem as I see is not that specific-issue follow-up testing is not being done, it is that neither the polygraph nor its operator is able to determine truth or deception. As I have mentioned before, as far as I can tell the examiner takes a wild guess and hopes for the best. There is no reason for me to believe that false positives are any less numerous than false negatives, so follow-up testing would hardly be a suitable resolution.
	« Last Edit: Jan 12^th, 2008 at 10:00am by Sergeant1107 »
	Lorsque vous utilisez un argumentum ad hominem, tout le monde sait que vous êtes intellectuellement faillite.
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nopolycop Especially Senior User Offline Posts: 383 Joined: Oct 20^th, 2007	Re: question Reply #5 - Jan 12^th, 2008 at 4:57pm	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	Sergeant1107 wrote on Jan 12^th, 2008 at 9:02am: I have already discussed this at length with the Chief in my department. The problem as I see is not that specific-issue follow-up testing is not being done, it is that neither the polygraph nor its operator is able to determine truth or deception. Sarge: Regarding the first, if that chief ever applies for another job which requires a poly, the issue will become more personal for him. I've seen it happen in my neck of the woods. Secondly, the above is right on. I recently had a discussion with my departments polygrapher, and I point blank confronted him about the issue, saying "you can't really tell if a person is lying or telling the truth, can you?" He sheepishly said "no, not really". And this guy is WELL RESPECTED in the poly community, and as served as president of the statewide poly association. At least he was honest with me, likley because he knew that I knew.

	"Although the degree of reliability of polygraph evidence may depend upon a variety of identifiable factors, there is simply no way to know in a particular case whether a polygraph examiner's Conclusion is accurate, because certain doubts and uncertainties plague even the best polygraph exams." (Justice Clarence Thomas writing in United States v. Scheffer, 523 U.S. 303, 118 S.Ct. 1261, 140 L.Ed.2d 413, 1998.)
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thebigmainer New User Offline Posts: 18 Location: maine Joined: Aug 9^th, 2007 Gender:	Re: question Reply #6 - Jan 14^th, 2008 at 3:21pm	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	thank you for some of the comments now i just realized i forgot some info. i was mentioning the state of maine and it's criminal justice academy. in the state law that establishes the academy it does not mention a polygraph as part of the entrance requirements, the polygraph requirement is the requirement of the board of trustees. the only law on the books is for sex offenders, the licensing of examiners and where it can be used. so if the academy requires it why isn't it part of the law that establishes the entrance requirements? and they say they follow the apa's policy but i haven't written proof from the director that says otherwise. any opinions?


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Lethe Very Senior User Offline Posts: 233 Joined: Apr 15^th, 2007	Re: question Reply #7 - Jan 21^st, 2008 at 8:04am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	Question for polygraphers: Which states, if any, actually have laws that require polygraph exams done by all state agencies to fully comply with APA guidelines and standards? It's great if you can talk about how awesome APA standards are. But if no one is actually following them, they may as well not even exist. We all know that federal agencies pretty much do whatever the hell they want. Pretty much every competent polygrapher I've ever seen comment on the subject has said that all exams should at least be audio recorded and that video recording would also be a good idea. I believe the APA itself has said that all exams should be recorded. But, hey, if that gets in the way of doing what you want, why do it? Truly it is written that those who have power do what they want and those who don't suffer what they must. So, which states, if any, actually require all polygraph exams done under their auspices to comply with APA rules? We've got polygraphers from all over the country here, I'm sure we can come up with a pretty good, if not 100% exhaustive and authoritative list.

	Is former APA President Skip Webb evil or just stupid? Is former APA President Ed Gelb an idiot or does the polygraph just not work? Did you know that polygrapher Sackett doesn't care about detecting deception to relevant questions?
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Donna.Taylor User Offline Posts: 37 Joined: Oct 23^rd, 2007	Re: question Reply #8 - Jan 22^nd, 2008 at 12:20am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	Lethe wrote on Jan 21^st, 2008 at 8:04am: Question for polygraphers: Which states, if any, actually have laws that require polygraph exams done by all state agencies to fully comply with APA guidelines and standards? It's great if you can talk about how awesome APA standards are. But if no one is actually following them, they may as well not even exist. We all know that federal agencies pretty much do whatever the hell they want. Pretty much every competent polygrapher I've ever seen comment on the subject has said that all exams should at least be audio recorded and that video recording would also be a good idea. I believe the APA itself has said that all exams should be recorded. But, hey, if that gets in the way of doing what you want, why do it? Truly it is written that those who have power do what they want and those who don't suffer what they must. So, which states, if any, actually require all polygraph exams done under their auspices to comply with APA rules? We've got polygraphers from all over the country here, I'm sure we can come up with a pretty good, if not 100% exhaustive and authoritative list. Utah rules state: 1. A potential examiner must graduate from a course of instruction in deception detection that is approved by the APA. 2. Post Conviction Sex Offender Testing (PCSOT) intern examiners must be supervised by an examiner that is PCSOT certified. 3. Also if an examiner conducts PCSOT without holding a current certification from APA they could be disciplined (including revocation of license). I believe the bigger picture is that APA members/examiners should follow rules and guidelines of the APA to retain their membership in this association. If they are an APA member and the APA standards are greater than their state rules - the examiner should be held accountable to the APA best practices or loose their membership. APA and AAPP are valuable entities to examiners. I believe memberships with these entities should be held at the highest regard by examiners. Taylor


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nopolycop Especially Senior User Offline Posts: 383 Joined: Oct 20^th, 2007	Re: question Reply #9 - Jan 22^nd, 2008 at 2:01am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	Donna.Taylor wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2008 at 12:20am: I believe the bigger picture is that APA members/examiners should follow rules and guidelines of the APA to retain their membership in this association. The APA doesn't even kick out members who falsify their credentials. I wouldn't hold your breath.

	"Although the degree of reliability of polygraph evidence may depend upon a variety of identifiable factors, there is simply no way to know in a particular case whether a polygraph examiner's Conclusion is accurate, because certain doubts and uncertainties plague even the best polygraph exams." (Justice Clarence Thomas writing in United States v. Scheffer, 523 U.S. 303, 118 S.Ct. 1261, 140 L.Ed.2d 413, 1998.)
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EJohnson Limited (No Attachments) Offline Internet Countermeasures Yields Failed Tests Posts: 176 Joined: Oct 23^rd, 2007	Re: question Reply #10 - Jan 22^nd, 2008 at 3:27am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	nopolycop wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2008 at 2:01am: Donna.Taylor wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2008 at 12:20am: I believe the bigger picture is that APA members/examiners should follow rules and guidelines of the APA to retain their membership in this association. The APA doesn't even kick out members who falsify their credentials. I wouldn't hold your breath. How do you know this? The APA Board of Directors are supposed to handle matters of non-third party victim discipline with secrecy, very much like employers do. With some exceptions, I doubt you care to have your law enforcement disciplinary actions put on Front Street. You continue to speak of which you don't know.

	All men are mortal. Socrates was mortal. Therefore, &&all men are Socrates.-----Woody Allen &&
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nopolycop Especially Senior User Offline Posts: 383 Joined: Oct 20^th, 2007	Re: question Reply #11 - Jan 22^nd, 2008 at 4:34am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	EJohnson wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2008 at 3:27am: nopolycop wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2008 at 2:01am: Donna.Taylor wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2008 at 12:20am: I believe the bigger picture is that APA members/examiners should follow rules and guidelines of the APA to retain their membership in this association. The APA doesn't even kick out members who falsify their credentials. I wouldn't hold your breath. How do you know this? The APA Board of Directors are supposed to handle matters of non-third party victim discipline with secrecy, very much like employers do. With some exceptions, I doubt you care to have your law enforcement disciplinary actions put on Front Street. You continue to speak of which you don't know. https://antipolygraph.org/cgi-bin/forums/YaBB.pl?num=1147180134

	"Although the degree of reliability of polygraph evidence may depend upon a variety of identifiable factors, there is simply no way to know in a particular case whether a polygraph examiner's Conclusion is accurate, because certain doubts and uncertainties plague even the best polygraph exams." (Justice Clarence Thomas writing in United States v. Scheffer, 523 U.S. 303, 118 S.Ct. 1261, 140 L.Ed.2d 413, 1998.)
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Lethe Very Senior User Offline Posts: 233 Joined: Apr 15^th, 2007	Re: question Reply #12 - Jan 28^th, 2008 at 2:21am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	Donna.Taylor wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2008 at 12:20am: Lethe wrote on Jan 21^st, 2008 at 8:04am: Question for polygraphers: Which states, if any, actually have laws that require polygraph exams done by all state agencies to fully comply with APA guidelines and standards? It's great if you can talk about how awesome APA standards are. But if no one is actually following them, they may as well not even exist. We all know that federal agencies pretty much do whatever the hell they want. Pretty much every competent polygrapher I've ever seen comment on the subject has said that all exams should at least be audio recorded and that video recording would also be a good idea. I believe the APA itself has said that all exams should be recorded. But, hey, if that gets in the way of doing what you want, why do it? Truly it is written that those who have power do what they want and those who don't suffer what they must. So, which states, if any, actually require all polygraph exams done under their auspices to comply with APA rules? We've got polygraphers from all over the country here, I'm sure we can come up with a pretty good, if not 100% exhaustive and authoritative list. Utah rules state: 1. A potential examiner must graduate from a course of instruction in deception detection that is approved by the APA. 2. Post Conviction Sex Offender Testing (PCSOT) intern examiners must be supervised by an examiner that is PCSOT certified. 3. Also if an examiner conducts PCSOT without holding a current certification from APA they could be disciplined (including revocation of license). I believe the bigger picture is that APA members/examiners should follow rules and guidelines of the APA to retain their membership in this association. If they are an APA member and the APA standards are greater than their state rules - the examiner should be held accountable to the APA best practices or loose their membership. APA and AAPP are valuable entities to examiners. I believe memberships with these entities should be held at the highest regard by examiners. Taylor Donna, the APA Standards of Practice (Effective 01/20/2007) states, in part: Quote: 3.9.9 An audio/video recording of the pretest and in-test phases is required to be made and maintained as part of the examination file for as long as required by regulation or law, but for a minimum of one year for all evidentiary and paired-testing examinations. Audio/video recording is recommended for PCSOT examinations. You seem to be implying that a polygrapher who doesn't follow the standards, which include audio/video recording all exams and keeping those records for at least one year, would lose APA membership and thus not be able to conduct exams in Utah. If this is so, then we could logically conclude that all exams performed under the auspices of the State of Utah are audio and video recorded and that those recordings are kept for at least one year. Is this, in fact, the case? If not, then the State of Utah does not require its polygraphers to fully comply with APA standards. Dr. Lethe

	Is former APA President Skip Webb evil or just stupid? Is former APA President Ed Gelb an idiot or does the polygraph just not work? Did you know that polygrapher Sackett doesn't care about detecting deception to relevant questions?
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sackett Especially Senior User Offline Posts: 347 Joined: Jan 31^st, 2008	Re: question Reply #13 - Jan 31^st, 2008 at 6:28am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	"Dr" Lethe, do you have an accusation, specific to an examiner, or are you simply "blowing smoke" to support your own propaganda...? Sackett


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T.M. Cullen God Member Offline Posts: 858 Location: Hawaii Joined: Dec 5^th, 2007 Gender:	Re: question Reply #14 - Feb 17^th, 2008 at 8:30am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	Ejohnson How do you know this? The APA Board of Directors are supposed to handle matters of non-third party victim discipline with secrecy, very much like employers do. With some exceptions, I doubt you care to have your law enforcement disciplinary actions put on Front Street. You continue to speak of which you don't know. I don't think you know what the hell your talking about. I would expect such a lame-ass, arrogant answer like that from some hack polygrapher! Maybe you're just afraid to admit the polygraph has no scientific basis. Who should we believe you and sackashit, or the scientific community?

	"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)." Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
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