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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) "how to sting the polygraph" (Read 68655 times)
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Re: "how to sting the polygraph"
Reply #15 - Jun 5th, 2003 at 5:13pm
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george, thanx for the long relpy.
how many people do you know that used CM's and failed? (i am not refering to those that admited to extras).
people that did what you say to do in the book and failed. any one out there?
  
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Re: "how to sting the polygraph"
Reply #16 - Jun 5th, 2003 at 5:34pm
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One major difference with Williams is that he instructs to use countermeasuers for irrelevant questions as well as control questions. When I took one of my several polygraphs I tried to employ these countermeasures on irrelevant questions and it raised the flag to the examiner who had tested me before.

Then key is to understand the way a polygraph is scored and what is measured and compared. Although Williams book is informative, I would suggest following TTBTLD. I did and passsed just fine. Practice with a friend or get a tape recorder, and you'll be ok.
  
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Re: "how to sting the polygraph"
Reply #17 - Jun 5th, 2003 at 5:43pm
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Hey, let's all gang up on Williams.  As a matter of fact, let's rename this site ANTIANYTHINGBUTGEORGE.ORG

  
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Re: "how to sting the polygraph"
Reply #18 - Jun 5th, 2003 at 6:35pm
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Quote:
I'm not going to advise you on CMs one way or another.  And I've only read the free book.

But I failed a recent exam despite being honest and having nothing to hide.  In retrospect, I think it would have been preferable for me personally to have attempted CMs and failed than to just get shafted.

Dear Wombat,

I think this quote says it all.  I was completely honest during my first polygraph with no knowledge of "countermeasures" and was inconclusive.  I was completely honest with no knowledge of countermeasures during my second exam and was confirmed as "absolutely trying to beat the test" and failed.  On appeal, I passed my third polygraph exam with knowledge of the NAS report and TLBHTLD with no use of countermeasures.  The whole use of it in FBI pre-screening is like the roll of the dice regardless of countermeasure knowledge and use. 

I did find the information regarding polygraph procedure in the site book to be very accurate in its description of what occured during my three exams.  I obviously do not think there is  any sure fire way of detecting countermeasures since I was accused and absolutely was not using any.   I believe a certain percentage of applicants are failed more on a "hunch" than any known concrete "countermeasure knowledge" by polygraph examiners.

It is a flawed test that I do not believe in but the reality is that the agencies believe in it.  Its use does not reflect well on the agencies that place so much emphasis on it instead of background checks.  The FBI does not go to background unless the polygraph "test" is passed and there is no reasonable way to appeal decisions.   It is a very long and time consuming process.

On Doug Williams,  if this test is so important to you to pass, buy his book and judge for yourself.  I have heard that he will call you and coach you and this might be exactly what you are looking for.

I do not stand in judgement of those who decide to use countermeasures but I personally do not like using a negative to counter a negative.  The problem just seems to compound the agencies' shell games and gives false comfort that the system is working properly.

Regards.
  
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Re: "how to sting the polygraph"
Reply #19 - Jun 5th, 2003 at 11:46pm
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Quote:
I did find the information regarding polygraph procedure in the site book to be very accurate in its description of what occured during my three exams.


Agreed.  If you read the book you'll probably find yourself trying not to smile when the examiner delivers a canned speech on their research on people who lie to their families, the polygraph technology, and so on.  Or when they tell you "you can relax now" while sensors are still in place.  Or when you are sitting alone in the room for extended periods of time with a camera trained on you.  The theatrics of the whole process are amusing.

Quote:
It is a flawed test that I do not believe in but the reality is that the agencies believe in it.  Its use does not reflect well on the agencies that place so much emphasis on it instead of background checks.


Again, ditto.  I went in thinking the FBI is above this, and there is some ingenious ulterior purpose to their reliance on the polygraph.  Now, sadly, I think a lot of people over there must really believe in this stuff.  (Which makes some sense, because all of them passed it one way or the other.  So to them it works -- and the people who got in despite lying, or by using countermeasures, aren't about to say otherwise.)

What I don't understand (regarding application procedures) is why not use the polygraph earlier in the process?  Seems cheaper than flying applicants to test sessions and structured interviews.  Use the cheap screening mechanisms first.  Seems like it would save a lot of time and money.  It's not as if the polygraph questions are really based on anything in your application -- they are pretty generic.
  
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Re: "how to sting the polygraph"
Reply #20 - Jun 6th, 2003 at 4:25am
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Hello...

I have used countermeasures on two polygraphs and passed both.

On both, I made sure I didn't allow my breathing pattern to change after answering the relevant questions (used a slight deep breath after some controls,  slight increase in breathing rate after other controls..very subtle and not overexaggerated by any means). 

I used the tac in the shoe trick on one polygraph (removed the inside removable padding from my dress shoe and stuck a tac through facing up just past my big toe so that when I was being hooked up to the machine I was able to plant my foot and force my foot in to position over the tack/place big toe over tac....then pressed down with increasig pressure as soon as recognized control question and held for 3-5 seconds).

On the other I used the tongue biting technique on controls, held for 3-5 seconds with gradually increasing pressure (both tac and tongue bite used until I felt a level of slight uncompfort, then held at that level).

Key is to act like you are up to absolutely nothing during your trip to take the poly..

Even go as far as using behavioral countermeasures during the interview (for instance,  when asked about control question information I manipulatively acted all nervous and took a deep breath and moved my eyes to one side to make the examiner think that was my behavioral tendancy when lying).

You need to go in there and remember that those sons of bitces are going to be the ones that might cost you your job.

Look them straight in the face and lie to them,  and then fuck them on the poly...

Peace


  
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Re: "how to sting the polygraph"
Reply #21 - Jun 6th, 2003 at 5:03am
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There you go George.  He did it all by himself.  And I really think his post contains much better writing and his material is much better than anything in your book.  Looks like when you brag too much it always happens - someone comes along and does you one better.
  
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Re: "how to sting the polygraph"
Reply #22 - Jun 6th, 2003 at 6:34am
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There you go George.  He did it all by himself.  And I really think his post contains much better writing and his material is much better than anything in your book.  Looks like when you brag too much it always happens - someone comes along and does you one better.  


I see the mentality of our pro-polygraph hecklers remains at a solid 2nd-grade average (with apologies to actual 2nd graders out there...).

Skeptic
  
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Re: "how to sting the polygraph"
Reply #23 - Jun 6th, 2003 at 8:54am
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wombat wrote on Jun 5th, 2003 at 5:13pm:
george, thanx for the long relpy.
how many people do you know that used CM's and failed? (i am not refering to those that admited to extras).
people that did what you say to do in the book and failed. any one out there?


I am familiar with several such cases. See, for example, Dimas' post, Taking One for the Team Part Two. (For relevant background, see his earlier post, Taking one for the team.)

As you read about the various experiences posted here, bear in mind that the great majority of the people who have downloaded The Lie Behind the Lie Detector (close to 80,000 downloads) have not posted on this message board.
  

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Re: "how to sting the polygraph"
Reply #24 - Jun 6th, 2003 at 9:42am
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Skeptic wrote on Jun 6th, 2003 at 6:34am:
I see the mentality of our pro-polygraph hecklers remains at a solid 2nd-grade average (with apologies to actual 2nd graders out there...).

Skeptic


Skeptic,

If one is to support polygraphy -- despite the overwhelming scientific evidence against it -- it helps to have underdeveloped critical thinking skills.

Wink
  

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Re: "how to sting the polygraph"
Reply #25 - Jun 6th, 2003 at 3:29pm
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wombat wrote on Jun 4th, 2003 at 1:28pm:
i have read the book on this site. it seems pretty informative. is it enough?
how many of you can actually tel me thaey used countermeasures and passed? id like to get intouch with one of you (by e mail or MSN) to talk about this issue.
i have a polygraph coming up and i MUST pass it.


Mr. Wombat,

I read both How To Sting The Polygraph and The Lie Behind The Lie Detector prior to deciding whether or not to employ countermeasures on my polygraph interrogation. I DID employ both behavioral, mental, and physical countermeasures whilst being interrogated and hooked up, and my polygrapher never had a clue-- in fact he commended me on my honesty. I was in fact truthful on all aspects of my pre-test and interrogation except for (obviously) the paranoid line of questioning about whether or not I knew anything about their Black Art. Now, the polygraphers here are quick to point out in this case that the polygraph 'worked', as I was being honest, but they fail to consider that from the moment I was hooked up till the moment the machine was switched off, I was regulating my breathing and spiking my physiological responses to the Control Questions, and of course my reactions to the ridiculous, insulting Stim Test.

I was interrogated by a polygrapher who claimed advanced training, including countermeasure detection, and who by his own account had polygraphed thousands of people. Trust me when I say, when applied properly, they don't-- indeed they cannot-- have a friggin clue that you're not the naive rube they need in order for the 'test' to 'work'. Once you know the Big Lie, all the little smaller lies your polygrapher tells you during the course of the interrogation reinforces your confidence that the entire process is morally bankrupt and of zero scientific accuracy-- just like both publications you list mentions in detail. And, just to cement your confidence in countermeasure use, I was hooked up to the latest and greatest electronic/computer polygraph device (a Lafayette Instruments POS with all the 'sensor' pads)...

In retrospect, all the information you need in order to pass a polygraph interrogation is contained in George and Gino's free book.  Good luck... I look forward to the temper tantrums and outbursts this post will generate,

Dave
  

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Re: "how to sting the polygraph"
Reply #26 - Jun 6th, 2003 at 4:04pm
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...Trust me when I say, when applied properly, they don't-- indeed they cannot-- have a friggin clue that you're not the naive rube they need in order for the 'test' to 'work'. Once you know the Big Lie, all the little smaller lies your polygrapher tells you during the course of the interrogation reinforces your confidence that the entire process is morally bankrupt and of zero scientific accuracy-- just like both publications you list mentions in detail....




Beech trees,

Well-said...I read your post, it makes me think of my own experiences and they were all similar to yours...and I just smile.  Grin

Poly-screening...what a sad, sick joke.

PK
  
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Re: "how to sting the polygraph"
Reply #27 - Jun 11th, 2003 at 6:59pm
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Beech Trees
Well done, of course you have ignored my request for proof of agency, but it does not matter.  Also, one who is complimented for honesty, would not be subject to "interrogation" perhaps you would use more accurate terms especially since you spend so much time on this topic.
I actually found a way for you to be of value the other day.  A sister agency had an applicant that was believed to be using countermeasures. A re-test was administered and I suggested a follow up GKT using three charts of information as contained on this site.  One key was your site name.  So Maestro, ask Lykken what the statistical odds are in scoring 6 to such a GKT?
This applicant finally admitted to using CM's AND lying on the application.  The idea that CM use is a noble, thinking, self protective act is to deny reality.  Part of the lie this applicant told was just that, he only wanted to protect against a false positive.  The polygrapher did not buy it due to reactions on the charts in the relevant areas.  Of course this story is general and I wont be specific, so dont ask.  It happened, will continue to happen, and the advice presented here will continue to cause failure.
But BT, my hysterical under employed friend, you have done your part to prevent an unsuitable applicant from joining a good agency.  I look forward to your continued participation in applicant screening.
  
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Re: "how to sting the polygraph"
Reply #28 - Jun 11th, 2003 at 7:15pm
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Breeze,

Assuming there is some truth to your recently posted story addressed to Beech, all you have demonstrated in its telling is something about the value of concealed information examinations.  If these examinations were all that were administered by polygraph examiners, innocent examinees would have no reason/need to utiilize countermeasures in the first place.  This is the take home message u should be sharing...
  
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Re: "how to sting the polygraph"
Reply #29 - Jun 11th, 2003 at 7:38pm
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I have a question.  If you have nothing to hide and you intend to use countermeasures, how do you know your countermeasures are what got you over the hump as opposed to your truthful responses to the relevant questions?

  
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