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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) "how to sting the polygraph" (Read 68654 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Saidme
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Re: "how to sting the polygraph"
Reply #45 - Jun 11th, 2003 at 10:34pm
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Drew

As I stated before, if you're currently under investigation for a specific criminal issue I would be happy to either exonerate you or include you in the offense at hand.  Laboratory conditions and field conditions are apples and oranges.  They're just not the same.  You can't compare the two.  Let's examine a military readiness exercise (which we can call a lab).  All the players are using blank ammunition.  They go through their training scenarios and everyone is shooting at each other.  At the end of the day they evaluate their training.  Can they effectively evaluate their readiness?  The answer is no.  They can make some assumptions, but until the real ammo's flying (field conditions) no one will no for sure how effective they will be.   

Skeptic

Fear of detection is the operative phrase.  No fear, no real effective examination. Tongue
  
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Re: "how to sting the polygraph"
Reply #46 - Jun 11th, 2003 at 10:50pm
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Saidme,

I believe you have now offered to assist me on two occasions should I ever be falsely accused in some matter and need assistance.  Although I very much appreciate the offer, unless you are well versed in and solely practicing concealed information testing at the time, I would have to decline such an offer.  I hope that you and any other would be defenders of my good name would be so prepared should the occasion arise.  Best Wishes, Drew Richardson
  
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Re: "how to sting the polygraph"
Reply #47 - Jun 11th, 2003 at 11:49pm
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Saidme wrote on Jun 11th, 2003 at 10:34pm:
Drew

Skeptic

Fear of detection is the operative phrase. †No fear, no real effective examination. Tongue


Saidme,
You're absolutely correct, which is actually one of the problems with polygraph theory, as I see it -- the assumption that there is fear of detection involved with telling a lie, and that fear is what causes any physiological changes noted. †Drew's assertion -- that the issue is more accurately defined as one of consequences (with which you seem to agree) -- most likely is more correct. †Unfortunately for the polygraph, it also implies numerous scenarios in which something other than the act of lying would result in physiological changes concurrent with the asking of a question. †Why should the fear of negative consequences be limited to the discovery of a lie? †The simple threat of being seen as a criminal, losing a job, etc. could be causing the changes noted.

Skeptic
  
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Re: "how to sting the polygraph"
Reply #48 - Jun 12th, 2003 at 2:08am
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Saidme,
i found your posts on the "how to sting..." very interesting.
id like to ask you a question if you dont mind.
what i could understand from what you wrote is that you can easily dettect the CM's presented on this site and many others.
but, that they are not dettected sometimes when the poly's operator does not look for them (or by random chance). correct?
then how do you explain the following fact:
to my knowledge, NO one susspected of spying (that turned out to be a spy) in the US and in several other countries i know of has ever been cought on the poly?? they are always "caught" by making a confession or survailance. how is this?? im sure that when these people were poley'd the guy checking they had "all eyes" so to speek open looking out for CM's.
Markus Klingberg (head of the biology institute, israel) was suspected of spying for the KGB for 20 years!! he was pol'd several times. NEVER was he caught. only after 20 years did they find evidence that he was a colonel in the KGB. how is this????
aldrich ames???
any many many more. how on earth is this possible???
and you knwo what?? all this talk about "fear of concequences". these people did not fear losing a job or going to jail for a couple of years. LIFE in jail. or DEATH!!!!
how do you explain this?
even if you assume that ALL the people on this site who say they passed the polly on CM's are liars you cant say the spy stories are lies. too many publications but official sources.
PLEASE explain to me these FACTS.
if you ask me....all this proves is that with the proper training CM's will fool the most senior and alert polygraphers. no?
  
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Re: "how to sting the polygraph"
Reply #49 - Jun 12th, 2003 at 3:20am
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Wombat

I can only provide you with my personal experiences regarding polygraphs and CM's.  I can't account for the last 50 years of lie detection.  A properly trained examiner can, will, and does detect CM's.  Keep in mind, polygraph is a tool not a magic wand.  Like anything else, it has it's drawbacks.  When used properly, polygraph is an excellent tool at getting to the issue at hand. 

Regarding some of those espionage cases, I'm not sure a polygraph examination is or was their answer in some of those cases.  There are several ways to skin a cat. Wink
  
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Re: "how to sting the polygraph"
Reply #50 - Jun 12th, 2003 at 5:31am
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Saidme wrote on Jun 12th, 2003 at 3:20am:
Wombat

I can only provide you with my personal experiences regarding polygraphs and CM's. †I can't account for the last 50 years of lie detection. †A properly trained examiner can, will, and does detect CM's.


How?
  

"It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government." ~ Thomas Paine
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Re: "how to sting the polygraph"
Reply #51 - Jun 12th, 2003 at 5:43am
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Saidme wrote on Jun 11th, 2003 at 9:45pm:
†I know many examiners who run across CM's regularly and regularly obtain confessions to the relevant issues and then turn around and confess to CM's.


So how many people have you caught using countermeasures that didn't tell you they were using them?  By caught I mean a conclusive demonstration that would pass scientific muster.
  
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Re: "how to sting the polygraph"
Reply #52 - Jun 12th, 2003 at 6:14am
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Saidme wrote on Jun 12th, 2003 at 3:20am:
Wombat

I can only provide you with my personal experiences regarding polygraphs and CM's. †I can't account for the last 50 years of lie detection. †A properly trained examiner can, will, and does detect CM's. †Keep in mind, polygraph is a tool not a magic wand. †Like anything else, it has it's drawbacks. †When used properly, polygraph is an excellent tool at getting to the issue at hand. †

Regarding some of those espionage cases, I'm not sure a polygraph examination is or was their answer in some of those cases. †There are several ways to skin a cat. Wink



Saidme,
Regardless of whether we agree or disagree, let me compliment you on the civility of this debate.  That's been in short supply here, especially since the NAS report.

Skeptic
  
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Re: "how to sting the polygraph"
Reply #53 - Jun 12th, 2003 at 7:19am
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Saidme,

I understand the argument made by some, including Prof. Charles Honts, that successfully employing countermeasures may be more difficult under field conditions than in a laboratory setting, based on the assumption that the fear of detection/consequences will be greater in the field than in the laboratory, perhaps leading to stronger reactions to the relevant questions.

But I don't see how this would affect a polygraph examiner's ability to detect countermeasures (quite apart from the question of countermeasure success rates). Why would a polygrapher be able to detect countermeasures in a field setting, but not in a laboratory setting? Your analogy comparing blank-fire military exercises with combat does not explain this.
  

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Re: "how to sting the polygraph"
Reply #54 - Jun 12th, 2003 at 3:18pm
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The reason it is easier to detect CMís in a polygraph setting (my perspective) is because there is no substitute for a real specific issue polygraph examination.  I believe that once an examinee is placed in that scenario, much of what they read about, practiced, learned, etcÖ goes right out the window.  No examinee can prepare for those psychological conditions.  What allows the examiners the ability (my perspective) to see CMís are the stakes involved.  Once the examinee enters the examination, theyíre now playing for real.  Many times the examinees will overcompensate allowing the examiner to easily see their CMís or they may not do enough allowing the relevant issues to shine brightly.  Iíll even take it a step further.  I truly believe CMís enhance the examinerís success rate.  Lets face it; the majority of those employing CMís have problems (guilty) with the relevant issues.  I agree CMís cause physiological changes during an examination, and I agree that some guilty folks have probably successfully gotten past an examiner.  I believe those cases are the exception and not the rule.  So I guess to sum it up, an examinee that wishes to use CMís can digest all the information they want (your book or others) but in the end it will be them, the examiner, and the relevant issue.  A truly innocent examinee who wishes to employ CMís is definitely hurting their chances on passing an examination. Wink
  
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Re: "how to sting the polygraph"
Reply #55 - Jun 12th, 2003 at 5:18pm
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Onesimus

None that Iím aware of.  Those whom Iíve suspected of CMís have confirmed my suspicions by telling me where they obtained their information and what CMís they were employing.  I donít believe itís an examinerís job to pass ďscientific musterĒ when it comes to identifying CMís. 
  
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Saidme,Re: "how to sting the polygraph"
Reply #56 - Jun 12th, 2003 at 5:35pm
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Saidme,

You write in your last post (as many in your profession have):

Quote:
...A truly innocent examinee who wishes to employ CMís is definitely hurting their chances on passing an examination....


Until you are willing to accept the challenge, all who read this will realize that such a comment coming from one in your position is nothing but defensive bluff and bluster.  I can readily appreciate your plight, wanting to avoid the public embarrassment that would be associated with accepting the challenge and to be shown to be wildly guessing...falsely accusing some examinees and missing the countermeasures employed by others...but that, my friend, is where you are.  Perhaps the more palatable alternative for you would be to start exclusively doing concealed information tests, tests for which there would be no need for innocent examinees to employ countermeasures.  As long as you (and others) continue to use and employ formats and applications that are invalid in the absence of countermeasures, innocent examinees who read of the horror that has been inflicted on other innocent examinees will most certainly be justified in considering and utilizing countermeasures to protect themselves.  Although I truly believe that you and others have no motivation and intent to wreak such havoc, the testing paradigms that you now employ are so faulty, that you have little ability to protect examinees from such error.  You can hardly expect them to place their fates exclusively in your hands under the circumstances...
  
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Re: "how to sting the polygraph"
Reply #57 - Jun 12th, 2003 at 5:47pm
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If I recall correctly the challenge was to demonstrate the ability to detect countermeasures.  That's been accomplished.  If I were only able to allow you to peek at the many law enforcement reports that detail this information.  Or better yet to observe an examination that ends with the examinee confessing to the relevant issue and the CM's. 

You make quite an assumption with this following statement:

"It happeAs long as you (and others) continue to use and employ formats and applications that are invalid in the absence of countermeasures, innocent examinees who read of the horror that has been inflicted on other innocent examinees will most certainly be justified in considering and utilizing countermeasures to protect themselves.ns all the time."

You make the faulty assumption that all who sign-on and write on this website are "innocent."  I think that's a pretty big leap of faith.
  
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Re: "how to sting the polygraph"
Reply #58 - Jun 12th, 2003 at 6:05pm
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Saidme,
so what you are saying is this:
IF, a person were to walk into a poly exam, act 100% cool, keep an absoloutly constant normal breathing patern during the ENTIRE time hooked up to the poly, detect ALL the control questions (in such a test), change his breath for the 5-20 secs after being asked one, do a slight anal pucker (in a manner that would be undetectable to sensors that may be in his seat), think wild thoughs and hence raise his bodys reactions, and during relevant questions keep his breath totaly constant and within the "normal range". and LIE on say one issue. he would pass?
  
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Saidme,Re: "how to sting the polygraph"
Reply #59 - Jun 12th, 2003 at 6:20pm
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Saidme,

I wrote:

Quote:
...As long as you (and others) continue to use and employ formats and applications that are invalid in the absence of countermeasures, innocent examinees who read of the horror that has been inflicted on other innocent examinees will most certainly be justified in considering and utilizing countermeasures to protect themselves...


You then quote as follows:

Quote:
..."It happeAs long as you (and others) continue to use and employ formats and applications that are invalid in the absence of countermeasures, innocent examinees who read of the horror that has been inflicted on other innocent examinees will most certainly be justified in considering and utilizing countermeasures to protect themselves.ns all the time."...


I am happy to be quoted but please do so more accurately in the future.  I make enough spelling and other errors that I don't need to be further assisted by others in augmenting such.

If you will review that which you have attempted to quote, you will notice that nowhere did I indicate anything about all who post here.  I can tell you that in the last decade I have been contacted by hundreds of individuals who would otherwise have had no reason to come to me (in fact, during a portion of that time a reason to avoid coming to me...I was employed by an agency that utilized polygraphy) and told me of the error and subsequent problems associated with polygraph exam results.  For a number of reasons, e.g., these individualsí willingness and desire to have background investigations focus on issues raised by polygraph exams, their willingness to tell their stories in the media, before Congress, and to be cross examined under oath would lead me to believe that there is fire with this smoke.  There is little question in my mind that many of the examinee reports of false positive polygraph results as posted on this site are in fact true and accurate representations.
  
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