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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Texas sex offender & mandatory polygraph (Read 318134 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Joe McCarthy
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Re: Texas sex offender & mandatory polygraph
Reply #225 - Jan 30th, 2016 at 9:27pm
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Armed with only the documented truth, cameras, recorders and records, I go to war to try to achieve peace.   

I am not optimistic
  

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Re: Texas sex offender & mandatory polygraph
Reply #226 - Jan 30th, 2016 at 9:34pm
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Tell us Joe, how does it feel knowing you're done in this business forever?  No one at NPA will stand up for you.  You were told to shut up, but you just wouldn't listen.  It doesn't matter if you are right or wrong.  The only thing that matters is the vote.  It will not fall in your favor.  You opened your mouth one too many times, Joey.  Even your wife won't stand by you.  Maybe she found some chocolate nuts, like the last wife?

You made a big deal about your "peace" with Rick.  You fool, it made him sick just to stand next to you.  You have no friends in polygraph.  We all hate you.  There is no way you will survive the vote, if you even make it to Vegas at all.  Bets are being taken if you'll show up.  Other bets include rope or a tailpipe.  The Irish do love their pipes.  You're too narcissistic to use a bullet.  I bet your wife will be happy that she can have chocolate nuts whenever she wants then.  The last one says, she's moved on to salty chocolate balls.  She's much happier now.  Maybe she found the Irish ones bland. We can introduce your current wife to something that tastes better after you’re gone.

It's funny that you really think this vote will go your way.  Why don't you just resign like you did last time?  If you resign, no vote will happen.  Isn't that better than embarrassing yourself in front of everyone?  Face it Joey, it's the only way out, other than the rope or tailpipe. 

We look forward to seeing who wins the pool. 

Enjoy Vegas Joey.  Be careful driving.  The Nevada Desert can be a dangerous place.  The vultures would love picking your fat ass clean.  We wouldn't want to see anything happen to you before you run out of the NPA meeting crying like last time.  This time, we will have our cameras out to record your baby fit for your fans here and on YouTube.  Won't Boston be proud.

There is no winning.  Save your money and what is left of your pride.


I'm  not sure where your particularly nasty poster got the idea that Joe McCarthy's wife doesn't stand behind him, but here I am, and I do.

I'm not going to hide behind some stupid screen name and I am not going to use the Tor browser.  If I am going to post anything, I am going to be upfront about who I am and what I have to say.  I think those of you pretending to be someone or something that you aren't are cowardly and dishonest.

I don't really follow this site, so you can save whatever nasty anonymous comments you have.   If you can't restrain yourself, I might see them in a few months or if someone calls my attention to them.  But I truly don't care if you like me.  In fact, it would be pretty awful to have the approval of some of the scum in the polygraph industry.   

Joe is a good polygraph examiner and interrogator.  I believe this is why there is such intense hatred of him.  I've seen Joe interview on numerous occasions and a few of those times, I was honestly blown away by what he managed to get out of people, and found myself shaking my head, thinking “I can't believe they just told him THAT.”  I've seen lots of police interrogations in lots of jurisdictions, and you can believe me or not. 

What I find shocking is an industry that is supposed to be about truth is trying so hard to keep him quiet.  He's never said anything bad about polygraph or its efficacy.  For heaven's sake, he was willing to be polygraphed on his own truthfulness.  Lest you think this idea is stupid, I've heard tell that at least one state polygraph association has that in its bylaws.

If an industry finds it necessary to restrict First Amendment rights, it's an industry with problems.  Nobody has made any allegations that his statements aren't true.  Nobody has filed a temporary injunction stopping any of his speeches or demanding retraction of any videos.  And you know they would.  So the speech that he was apparently “told to shut up” about is obviously legal, free and protected speech.  What else do they not want anyone to know?

Joe may have drunk the polygraph koolaid, but I'm also going to add that if this industry is upright and honorable, wouldn't they be proud of their product?  If the science is completely accurate, why aren't they having an open discussion with George Mischke about how they come to their conclusions and numbers?  Why would any examiner balk at turning over charts instead of just a conclusory report?  You do know, people, if you want to have any part of this polygraph thing of yours admissible in court every single aspect of what you did has to be discoverable and subject to cross examination?

Maybe nobody cares.  Maybe it is just a small enough industry to completely fly under the radar screen.  Maybe the fact that most of the injustices are being done to sex offenders means  nobody cares.  Who is going to stand up for a sex offender?

And for those of you who can't get over your obsession with chocolate salty balls, try this instead.  I don't have much of a sweet tooth so I can't verify how great these turn out.  http://www.geekychef.com/2011/08/chocolate-salty-balls.html
  
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Re: Texas sex offender & mandatory polygraph
Reply #227 - Jan 30th, 2016 at 10:52pm
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Joe McCarthy wrote on Jan 30th, 2016 at 9:15pm:
In this country, you need to belong to a profession organization to compete for contracts.  Also a lot of therapists will not use you if you do not belong to one, and lastly, if you do not belong to a professional organization, you can kiss any court or parole board recognition goodbye.

Hmm, interesting. Ostensibly, this criterion appears as a quality control measure, which is understandable. However, its exclusionary tactic is not only open to abuse, it's unfair. There should be a mechanism whereby a private individual can properly demonstrate commensurate proficiency and expertise without forced participation in a "professional" organization.
  
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Re: Texas sex offender & mandatory polygraph
Reply #228 - Jan 31st, 2016 at 2:13am
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Joe, you said:

"I would very much like Dan to stay away from the NPA, unless he is willing to work and play well with others."

No sweat, Joe.

My involvement with the NPA is way down the road. 

My primary goal is to eradicate the cancer that exists within the American Polygraph Association. 

I estimate that will take a few years following my imminent election as president

I'll deal with the NPA after that, if they haven't learned -- and changed.

In any event, time is on my side.

I'm a patient man.
  
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Re: Texas sex offender & mandatory polygraph
Reply #229 - Jan 31st, 2016 at 8:27am
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The hell you are if I am there. 

I am partly fighting to for a return to the way things were before the usurper came along and decided to get this organization involved with a fight they don't want any part of; or at least that is what I am told. 

NPA, was a non political organization where this thing would once not be even entertained. Somehow, someone, we all know who, has manipulated people to take up her vendetta. In the process, it has become, "Joe roll over and take it, and they will go away"

Fact is, the stunt they pulled in 2014 made it clear they won't go away. And a few days ago, this went way too far and I can't count on anyone to call these people to the plate on it because calling them to the plate seems to be taboo. 

I am sure I will somehow be blamed and I provoked that attack. That is the way it seems to go. 

Anyway, if I can quell this situation with the usurper, and there is a return to everyone coming to Vegas without having to worry about this crap, and the fight in texas stays in texas, I don't need an insurrectionist coming in to mess up everyone's good time. 

I don't mind having ya there, it would be nice to have someone around from the hometown,  but only if you play nice. We don't need someone coming for the soul reason of making trouble, where no trouble exists. We are already dealing with that with the usurper. God knows I didn't bring this fight to Vegas. I came here to escape the politics and BS. The usurper came for the purpose of causing problems and ruining a good thing. Sadly, she is being allowed to do it, and obviously, because she gets away with her antics, it's clear the Texas examiners just get bolder. 

That is what these people don't understand. If you give these Texas examiners an inch, they take it as weakness and they push to the next level, just like what is happening now. 

They have done this in the past, and when the judge let the lieguytoo thing pass without consequences, clearly they think the NPA will do the same. She will, no doubt, try to convince them that I provoked it; but she will be hard pressed to point out who what happened here is appropriate. 

Problem is, this is a pattern of behavior for them. 

What passes me off is, it seems no one is taking it seriously and probably won't, until they become so bold, that they actually do something, and I am forced to defend myself. I am sure that will be my fault too though. 

No one seems to get the idea, that I only come here when I am marginalized or backed into a corner. And obviously, coming here or addressing it on a private message board, for examiners only, has the same result and consequences. At least here all the sudden, I am taken seriously, because they hate the truth being public more than me addressing it in private. So maybe TEXASPP is right, private or public, it comes right down to, how did TEXASPP put it, "shut my mouth," and play their whipping boy without defending myself or expecting them to be help accountable for this behavior that has become a pattern for the Texas examiners involved. 

Maybe I am wrong about how I see their lack of concern. I guess I'll know soon enough

But no, if I can get things back to homeostasis, and politics and these games take a back seat again, I don't need you messing that up and ruining everyone's good time 

If you do come, let's have some beers, do some ceu's, cause havoc at the tables, and have a good time

Keep the politics at APA, we don't want it. 

Then again, if I am wrong and they are switching to the political game playing, have at it; but it will be a dime late and a dollar short for me. 

Everyone tells me privately, they don't like some of these peoplen and some even roll their eyes when you even mention texas, but for some reason, i am.the only one with the balls to take a strong stand, and what the Texans want, the industry bends over and kisses their asses; right or wrong. It baffles the hell out of me. 

Some even say I have been treated unfairly, but no one will dare say it publicly, because then they will be labeled as being just like Joe McCarthy. I have been told that is the mantra at TAPE, remember what we did to Joe 

That I get that as second hand information.  But look at their histroy
  
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Re: Texas sex offender & mandatory polygraph
Reply #230 - Jan 31st, 2016 at 8:29am
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Sorry if I misspelled things, typing on the phone, and not great with touch screens
  
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Re: Texas sex offender & mandatory polygraph
Reply #231 - Feb 3rd, 2016 at 12:24am
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What exactly are the chief differences between the NPA and APA?

Are they adversaries?
  
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Re: Texas sex offender & mandatory polygraph
Reply #232 - Feb 3rd, 2016 at 1:10am
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Ark, I suspect you are bullshitting.  You probably know the difference.

But for those who don't... 

In my opinion, the APA is a hard core cult, while the NPA is more like the Unitarian Universalist Church. 

Both are essentially about the religion of polygraph -- it's just a matter of degree.

  
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Re: Texas sex offender & mandatory polygraph
Reply #233 - Feb 3rd, 2016 at 1:47am
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Dan, yes I kinda knew what they were administratively, but Vulture Joe's last post hinted at certain nuances to which I am naïve. So I guess I was chumming for comments to sample attitudes.
  
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Re: Texas sex offender & mandatory polygraph
Reply #234 - Feb 4th, 2016 at 4:04am
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Ex Member wrote on Feb 3rd, 2016 at 12:24am:
What exactly are the chief differences between the NPA and APA?

Are they adversaries?


No they are not.  In regard to differences, it depend on who you ask.  For me, the NPA is less politically based.  The spa, is more an international organization, than a national one.  The ape's numbers are greater, but the can be a wee bit more down to earth at their seminars.

Both associations have much the same to offer, but what is offered, is delivered differently.  Just like anything in this world, there are advantages to both.  Now that I've been to both seminars, I am not going to say that either is, inherently bad.  What I am going to say, is the NPA is simply a better fit for me.

Dan Mangan wrote on Feb 3rd, 2016 at 1:10am:
In my opinion, the APA is a hard core cult, while the NPA is more like the Unitarian Universalist Church.

Both are essentially about the religion of polygraph -- it's just a matter of degree.



Seriously Dan? So you want to take over a cult for what, to change it to the Dan theology and canon?  Remember, you're a member of that "cult" Dan, just saying.   

You say things like this, and then wonder why you don't get elected president.  To win the presidency, you have to win hearts and minds; we talked about this.  I am not telling you not to be critical.  What I'm saying is, the way you deliver the message is not going to open any doors anywhere.

Comparing NPA to the universalist church, one word does match, universalist.  the NPA welcomes examiners properly licensed and regulated as full members.  They do not like politics, and, I can tell you from experience, they are not fans of internal bickering. We are all there to keep up on the latest data, and have fun.  If people are looking for awards or accolades, that only happens for the speakers.  They are usually given a cool leather bound binder or pen set.  LOL

The nuances between the two are very superficial; but there are differences.   

Now the differences between TAPE and NPA, or even APA, whole different story.  Those differences are as clear as night and day.   

  

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Re: Texas sex offender & mandatory polygraph
Reply #235 - Feb 4th, 2016 at 6:40am
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Anyway, this little battle is done.  No one lost, and everyone came out winners.  It would be improper to go too much into detail, but the end result is as fair as the situation allowed. It has been my experience, that if every party in a situation doesn't walk away 100% happy, then it is a good end result.  Regardless, the end result was reached unanimously, and the issue is closed so far as the NPA is concerned.

This is a Texas fight, and they would very much like to see it stay in Texas.  So it looks like TAPE, and Ms. "Off With His Head," will have to fight me in Texas.  As an earlier post has made clear, hostilities are bound to continue.  Only this time, no one outside of Texas will take up the fight.  They can no longer use private organizations to silence the truth.  Basically, it is between me, TAPE and Maria (who feels she is the voice of TAPE.  Is she?)

I'll say it again.  I will continue to fight for, fair, independent, and unbiased polygraph testing in Texas.  I will continue to fight against the high inconclusive rates we have seen in the past until I am sure those high inconclusive rates are in the past.  I will continue to be vocal about my stance against monopolies and anticompetitive behavior.  I will continue to be an advocate for the use of polygraph, within our own industry to handle situations like this, should they arise again. 

At this point, everyone involved has a choice.  I say this because I know the examiners in Texas are reading this.  Either we can settle our differences, and move on, or we can keep this up until we destroy one another.  One thing that will no longer happen, I will not roll over any more.  The leash, and gloves are off.  You guys picked this fight with your stupidity in 2014. 

Now that the fight is contained to Texas, it forces the examiners involved to do one of two things

1. Make peace, we all play nice and move on and make things in Texas better

or

2.  We can continue this, which is just bad for all of us.

One thing is clear from the past couple of years, the advice I've been getting, "Ignore them and they will go away," is not a viable option.  The only one who has shown a true desire to move on and let go, has been me.  This is clear from my period of silence from 2009 to 2014.  Both TAPE and Ms. Hubbard resurrected this feud, take some responsibility.  For once TAPE, step up and do the right thing.  

I will no longer assume this is over.  Doing so has only ended in more bolder and unwarranted attacks.   Either we all agree this is done, or I will assume that TAPE supports and condones, and supports the actions of its secretary; and that the actions of its secretary is reflective of the will and pleasure of the TAPE Board of Directors and Executive Committee.  

People have choices to make, because I am done being a doormat.  

As always my phone is on.  I suggest some people use it.

In any case, the NPA is out of this fight now.  So, it's now me vs Hubbard and TAPE.  The choice about if this continues beyond this is theirs


« Last Edit: Feb 4th, 2016 at 7:13am by Joe McCarthy »  

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Re: Texas sex offender & mandatory polygraph
Reply #236 - Feb 4th, 2016 at 2:25pm
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Joe McCarthy said: 

Seriously Dan? So you want to take over a cult for what, to change it to the Dan theology and canon?

Not at all, Joe.

My goal is to smash the APA's virtual-reality protective bubble and get the organization in sync with modern values.

That means embracing such concepts as consumer protection (with a bill of rights for polygraph test subjects), realistic research (including an ongoing countermeasure challenge series), and ensuring equality (including political opportunity) for all APA members, regardless of their citizenship.

Is that so unreasonable?

The APA seems to have a history of living with its head in the sand. 

Here's an example...

For fifteen years -- ten of them after the devastating NAS report in 2002-- the APA steadfastly claimed 98.6% accuracy for the "test."

Over the past few years, the APA has walked back their accuracy claims to 89% (single issue) and 85% (multiple issue).

In my opinion, those claims are likely exaggerated, having been concocted by pro-polygraph indu$triali$t$ from the APA's very own de facto in-house research department.

It's time for some independent oversight.

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

The APA needs a swift kick in the ass.
  
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Re: Texas sex offender & mandatory polygraph
Reply #237 - Feb 4th, 2016 at 3:53pm
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Dan Mangan wrote on Feb 4th, 2016 at 2:25pm:
That means embracing such concepts as consumer protection (with a bill of rights for polygraph test subjects), realistic research (including an ongoing countermeasure challenge series), and ensuring equality (including political opportunity) for all APA members, regardless of their citizenship.


No there are not unreasonable things.  Your bill of rights though, is redundant however; there are already rules in place which over ethical treatment of examinees.  I would like to see rules put in place to ensure examinees are not taken advantage of; for example, an examiner, or firm with high inconclusive rates.  I also feel that safeguards need to be put in place, with certain type of testing to prevent monopolistic markets.  These are real problems, at least they have been down here in Texas.  A market that is monopolized by one examiner or firm, opens that market up for abuse.  Because the only people checking behind us, are other examiners within that good ole boy network.   

Having said this, the APA has taken huge steps to address issues of antitrust.  I think it is important to step back and give them a chance to work that policy and at some point, maybe enhance it.  I think the problem is, state associations like TAPE are being allowed to run with no accountability to anyone.  Like schools, maybe state association need to be regulated, and babysat, by a parent organization so there is a string of accountability to nationally uniformed standards.  Organizations like TAPE have shown that they cannot be trusted to self police themselves, or even abide by their own bylaws.  i will agree, there needs to be more accountability in this industry; just not sure if you are going about it in the right way.

Dan you belong to the APA; you're a full member, with full rights.  Serve on a committee, or as a member of the Board of Directors. Show up to business meetings; debate and vote on the issues.  When I was at APA last year, they were asking me where you were, and why you don't come and debate issues there.  They want you, as a full member to be a part of the process.  Frankly, you don't want to be a part of the process, unless you can run the show; it doesn't work like that. It is impossible to run for mayor of a town, and win, if you don't show up to city council meetings and make yourself and your ideas politically known.  You don't do this.

Just like I will call them to the carpet, I will do the same to you.  You are squandering your power as a full member, and then complaining about it.

I, this year have made it known, I want to be a part of the process at NPA.  I did not see a need to change any of this year's officers, because I am seeing positive progress within the organization, and this makes me optimistic for the future. Messing up the momentum is counter productive.  I have however put my hat in the ring in other areas, in which, I hope to make small contributions, to make things better.  This way, when the time comes and I do run for office, people see it is for the right reasons.  Also,  in a well run, organization, no one person holds all the power.  No one wants to elect a usurper, or insurrectionist.  We talked about your political image Dan.  There is a faster path to the goal you seek, you simply choose not to take it.   

Huge steps have been taken within the past year, that I would have never thought would back in 2009.  Things are changing and moving forward, lets help that momentum.   

Before you can kick an ass, you have to put yourself into a position to do so.   

Anyway, I have a long drive home ahead of me my friend.  Have to go back to a truly hostile market.  Seriously Dan, I wish I had your problems for a month
  

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Re: Texas sex offender & mandatory polygraph
Reply #238 - Feb 4th, 2016 at 5:33pm
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My bill of rights concept is redundant?

There is nothing quite like it out there, especially points three, four, five, six and seven. Read it carefully, item by item. 

Allow me to refresh your memory:

> I have taken a stab at drafting a list of items to be incorporated into "bill of rights." Here it is from a previous post...
>
>
> 1. Considerate and respectful treatment from the polygraph examiner throughout all phases of the polygraph process.
>
> 2. Knowledge of the name of the examiner who has primary responsibility for conducting the examination, and the names and professional relationships of other examines who may review the test for quality-assurance purposes.
>
> 3. Receive, if requested, a statement of qualifications of the examiner, including the number of exams they have run and their own success rate with those exams.
>
> 4. Receive, prior to the test, information on the technique to be used and citations (or abstracts) for peer-reviewed research that supports such technique.
>
> 5. Receive information, prior to the test, about polygraph theory and the testing process, accuracy estimates as determined by peer-reviewed research, and the prospects for error -- all in terms the subject can understand.
>
> 6. Receive, prior to the test, a complete (as possible) list of potential reasons for a false or inconclusive result, including instrument-related (hardware and software) variances that could skew results.
>
> 7. Receive, prior to the exam, as much information about the risks, realities and limitations of polygraph testing -- including opposing views from respected academic and legal sources -- the subject may need in order to better give informed consent.
>
> 8. The right to refuse the exam, or halt the exam at any stage of the process.
>
> 9. The right to be advised as to the reason for the presence of any individual besides the examiner during any portion of the exam process.
>
> 10. Receive, if requested, a complete copy of the entire exam, including full-length continuous video, charts, work sheets, score sheets (manual), computerized scoring output, notes, and any background information supplied to the examiner.
>
> 11. Confidential treatment of all communications and records pertaining to the examination. Written permission shall be obtained before the polygraph records can be made available to anyone not directly concerned with the immediate case.
>
> 12. Mandatory video recording of the entire examination process.
>
>


Joe, if you think this draft bill of rights is redundant, I'm afraid that makes you the ne plus ultra of polygraph establishment Kool-Aid drinkers.

The last thing we need is more apologists.
  
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Re: Texas sex offender & mandatory polygraph
Reply #239 - Feb 4th, 2016 at 7:06pm
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Joe, let me see if I have the beef understood. You are not allowed to be a member of TAPE, and as a result your business opportunities are being limited?
  
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