What will make you fail?

[timmy]

Hi everyone, I am in the process of applying for employment where a Poly will be given. What if I were to be honest about past history. What are most organizations policy on such past occurrences? Would this disqualify me even though I was not being dishonest? Would countermeasures be a better way to go about it?

Thanks

[BULLPOLY]

TIMMY:

YOUR QUESTION NEEDS TO BE MUCH MORE SPECIFIC. WHAT PART OF YOUR HISTORY ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? SOME THINGS ARE CONSIDERED FORGIVEABLE BY SOME DEPARTMENTS DEPENDING ON HOW LONG AGO, HOW MANY TIMES, ETC. OTHER DEPARTMENTS HAVE A ZERO TOLERANCE POLICY FOR CERTAIN CONDUCT. BUT AGAIN YOUR QUESTION IS TOO VAGUE TO ADEQUATELY RESPOND TO BY ANYONE ON THIS MESSAGE BOARD, IMHO.

[timmy]

Sorry for being so vague! Lets say drug use was pretty heavy as a teenager up to 19 including many types of drugs and the extent of use too great to count. Also the organization in question is the CIA. I am now 25 and was in the military,  completely drug free for over 5 years however, I do know that the FBI for example has a 15 time use limit on Marijuana. Do all agencies have a cut off to which you are disqualified?

Thanks

[You have no chance]

If you are a recent or frequent user of illegal drugs, including marijuana, you need to know that CIA is a drug-free workplace. Drug abuse is one of the common reasons a security clearance is denied to applicants.

The Agency uses the polygraph to check the veracity of information which bears upon the areas listed above. CIA's polygraph examiners are highly trained security professionals, among the world's best in their field. They work closely and carefully with applicants to ensure that the information upon which clearance decisions are based is as accurate as it can be and is guarded with the strictest confidence.

Make no mistake about it; clearance processing can be lengthy. Depending on your specific circumstances, the process may take as little as two months or over a year. Since the Agency actively recruits people who have expert knowledge of foreign languages and cultures, it is not unusual for our applicants to have numerous foreign contacts. In these cases the investigation must cover more ground, which usually takes more time. Candor is critical to the timely completion of this process.

Sorry for being so vague! Lets say drug use was pretty heavy as a teenager up to 19 including many types of drugs and the extent of use too great to count. Also the organization in question is the CIA. I am now 25 and was in the military,  completely drug free for over 5 years however, I do know that the FBI for example has a 15 time use limit on Marijuana. Do all agencies have a cut off to which you are disqualified?

[G Scalabr]

CIA's polygraph examiners are highly trained security professionals, among the world's best in their field.

The pseudoscientific field of polygraphy has not proven its ability to determine truth from deception with better than chance accuracy through peer-reviewed scientific research conducted under field conditions. CIA polygraphers may or may not be among the world's best in their field. Nonetheless, the field as a whole has failed to prove its competence when it comes to determining truth from deception.

[beech trees]

If you are a recent or frequent user of illegal drugs, including marijuana, you need to know that CIA is a drug-free workplace. Drug abuse is one of the common reasons a security clearance is denied to applicants.

This person is writing that while they have a checkered drug usage history, they have not taken drugs for 6 years.

The Agency uses the polygraph to check the veracity of information which bears upon the areas listed above. CIA's polygraph examiners are highly trained security professionals, among the world's best in their field. They work closely and carefully with applicants to ensure that the information upon which clearance decisions are based is as accurate as it can be and is guarded with the strictest confidence.

'They work closely and carefully with applicants' is a gross mischaracterization of the polygraph interrogation process, in my opinion.

Being the world's best polygrapher is akin to being the world's best refuse collector. At the end of the day, no matter how well you did, it's still just garbage in, garbage out.

Make no mistake about it; clearance processing can be lengthy. Depending on your specific circumstances, the process may take as little as two months or over a year. Since the Agency actively recruits people who have expert knowledge of foreign languages and cultures, it is not unusual for our applicants to have numerous foreign contacts. In these cases the investigation must cover more ground, which usually takes more time. Candor is critical to the timely completion of this process.

The statements by others on this board would indicate candor has little if anything to do with how quickly one is accepted or rejected, and has little to do with whether or not one is deemed non-deceptive. Please note I am NOT advising people to be less than candid, I am merely making an observation as to what I have read about the application process and the uses & abuses of the polygraph in that process.

Rather than entrusting a candidate's career to the scribblings of a box, why not interview an applicant's peer group to help determine if said applicant is being forthright about his current drug usage? A urine and hair sample would also check the veracity of an applicant's assertion he hasn't recently used drugs to a point at least 3 years in the past.

The United States would not be in the HUMINT deficit in which it now wallows if the CIA did not rely on the pseudo-science of polygraphy.

[George W. Maschke]

If you are a recent or frequent user of illegal drugs, including marijuana, you need to know that CIA is a drug-free workplace. Drug abuse is one of the common reasons a security clearance is denied to applicants.

...

The language of the message posted by "You have no chance" is borrowed directly from the CIA website:

http://www.cia.gov/cia/employment/before2.htm

If the CIA does have a cut-off limit for past drug use, it seems that it has chosen not to publicly disclose that limit.

I fully agree with beech trees that the CIA's public representation that its polygraphers "work closely and carefully with applicants" is a gross mischaracterization of the polygraph interrogation process. See my earlier post, CIA Hypocrisy for related commentary, and see the accounts on the AntiPolygraph.org Personal Statements page for examples of how CIA polygraph interrogators may "work closely and carefully with applicants."

[you have no chance]

A urine and hair sample would also check the veracity of an applicant's assertion he hasn't recently used drugs to a point at least 3 years in the past.

You're smokin' crack dude. 3 years in the past based on urine or hair. First off, the urine drug screening can be passed through some off the shelf masking agents bought at your local GNC.
Two, the hair sample would give you a reading from 3 years in the past if you hadn't had a haircut in nearly that long. If you have a military type haircut (about 2-3 inches in length), they can only test for a few months.

It doesn't really matter, the CIA will never accept someone that has used hard drugs for numerous years, even if it's been years since his last use. As soon as they find out about his past, they'll find a way to get rid of him.

[beech trees]

You're smokin' crack dude.

How pleasant. Welcome to the boards.

3 years in the past based on urine or hair. First off, the urine drug screening can be passed through some off the shelf masking agents bought at your local GNC.

Masking agents are easily detected. While masking agents can ruin a urine sample and make the detection of drug metabolites impossible, the presence of the masking agents in and of themselves will cause a failure.

Two, the hair sample would give you a reading from 3 years in the past if you hadn't had a haircut in nearly that long. If you have a military type haircut (about 2-3 inches in length), they can only test for a few months.

My understanding is a lot depends upon the rate of growth of one's hair. I'll be the first to admit I have no firsthand knowledge in this area.

It doesn't really matter, the CIA will never accept someone that has used hard drugs for numerous years, even if it's been years since his last use. As soon as they find out about his past, they'll find a way to get rid of him.

Their perogative, I suppose.

[timmy]

Thanks for all the replies! Even you dont have a chance. I was just curious as to whether or not I should decline the COE since I was planning on being honest. It looks like I should.

[MissionPoly-ban]

For those of you not only interested in passing the polygraph,  but also the drug test:

Passing a uring test is rather easy,  even on short notice.

Drug byproducts are stored in various components of the body,  and break down day by
day until all byproducts have been eliminated through wastes.  

While a person may have smoked a joint the day before a test,  it is still easy to beat the
drug test...here is how:


Firstly, go to the nutrition store and buy a small container of creatine.  Take the creatine
starting a day or two before the test...a big spoonfull with each meal.  

Start really loading the creatine the last 4 to 5 hours before the test.  

Drug tests check for creatine levels in your urine to make sure it is not too diluted to be a
good sample, and by saturating yourself with creatine, you can assure yourself that you
will be realeasing creatinine,  the chemical they are looking for,  even with diluted urine.

Second, before the test (roughly three to four hours or more) eat a large meal which
contains a lot of fiber.  Oatmeal is a great choice.  The fiber will help redirect a lot of the
broken down metabolites into your stool, rather than going to your bladder.  

About one and a half to two hours before the test, start drinking ANY type of beverage in
mass quantities.  Water is fine,  but natural cranberry juice does the trick greatly.  
Also take a Multi-vitamin and a VITAMIN B.  It is important to take the B vitamin to add
color to the urine.  They look to see if the urine is too clear.

Keep drinking water or cranberry juice until you are really full of fluid.  

Then start pissing.  

Piss a lot...like you have never pissed before.

Make sure you go atleast four or five times, monitoring the shade of yellow your urine is
from the vitamin B.

Make sure you are still pissing yellow when you go to take the urine test.

Make sure you need to go your fourth or fifth time by the time you get to the test, and
then hold it.By this time,  all the metabolites that your blood was carrying will be flushed, and what
little--if any--is left will be undetectable because it will be undetectable by their cutoff
standards...regardless of what their cutoff is.

In simple terms,  there will be NO WAY IN HELL that there will be detectable amounts in
your urine (assuming you did the above, and made sure you went 5 or so times soon
before the test).

Now when they have you piss in the cup, start by pissing in the toilette for a few seconds,
then piss in the cup after already having pissed a while in the toilette, then make sure you
have filled the cup up enough, and finish your piss in the toilette.  Trust me on
this....midstream piss is the cleanest.

What you will give them is a urine sample that is on one hand flushed and diluted beyond
drug metabolite detectablitity,  and on the other,  yellow enough to look undiluted,
containing creatine levels that are acceptable,  and all the vitamins and minerals normally
found in piss due to the multivitamin and good meal you ate earlier in the day.

Trust me on this one...Im going to write a new book titled "The Piss behind the Drug
Detector"

[fifazip]

Netnin ...
     Why are you teaching people how to pass a drug test?  Do many false positives occur in that area???  Exactly what type of people are you helping get into law enforcement?  Past drug use is one thing, each agency has a cutoff for what you could have experimented with ... but if you can't pass a drug test now, that means you are still a user ... do you want someone like that protecting you?  I don't.

[BEAR]

"While a person may have smoked a joint the day before a test,  it is still easy to beat the
drug test...here is how:..."

While most drugs are water soluble, pot is fat soluble and chronic users can keep it in their systems for over 30 days. Your "flushing" technique is also suspect. I have studied (all coutermeasures) and administered many drug screens. The only 100% method of passing drug screens is substitution (for drug users). Dilution will cause concern and lets face it, most of the people in this forum are pre-employment L.E. and do we really want our finest saving our lives on dope?

For "you have no chance", you are smoking crack if you think any potion from GNC or anywhere else will enable you to pass a drug screen. I have personally busted people that used these flush drinks. Get your facts right. If you are a CIA employee, then I fear the safety of our nation based on your statements.

[you have no chance]

Nope, I don't work for the CIA, but I have a friend that works at a GNC and she tells me that at the first of the month, she gets a lot of people that come in for the flush drink or gel or whatever it is. She also tells me that crack and cocaine users buy a product there that's used to mix in with the coke.
Needless to say, I'd have to say the flush drinks must work, because she says the same people come in every month to get the stuff for their mandatory pee tests.

"While a person may have smoked a joint the day before a test,  it is still easy to beat the
drug test...here is how:..."

While most drugs are water soluble, pot is fat soluble and chronic users can keep it in their systems for over 30 days. Your "flushing" technique is also suspect. I have studied (all coutermeasures) and administered many drug screens. The only 100% method of passing drug screens is substitution (for drug users). Dilution will cause concern and lets face it, most of the people in this forum are pre-employment L.E. and do we really want our finest saving our lives on dope?

For "you have no chance", you are smoking crack if you think any potion from GNC or anywhere else will enable you to pass a drug screen. I have personally busted people that used these flush drinks. Get your facts right. If you are a CIA employee, then I fear the safety of our nation based on your statements.

[MissionPoly-ban]

BEAR:

I'm not sure if you have read my post thoroughly (about how to pass a drug test)....

If you did,  you would have realized that I gave people directions on how to present a flushed (metabolite) urine sample that appears to be absolutely acceptable.

I have studied (all coutermeasures) and administered many drug screens. The only 100% method of passing drug screens is substitution (for drug users). Dilution will cause concern

Nonsense.

The key causes for concern (that would lead an examiner to believe that a person manipulated their specimen) are:  Lack of color,  low creatinine levels,  and low vitamin/mineral concentrations.  

Clearly,  a person who hands over a specimen that looks like a glass of Polish Springs bottled water will be suspected of flushing their system,  but I gave directions on how to give a specimen that is absolutely acceptable,  passing in all of those areas.  

BEAR...the fact is that drug screeners are (in most cases) dealing with a cup of someone's (a stranger) piss.  

There are no rules that say,

"Don't drink excessive water in the morning before you come in for your urine sample"
"Don't take a multi-vitamin on the day of a urine test"
"Don't take any type of nutrition supplement on the day of a test"

The drug screeners accept this fact and realize that "all piss isn't created equal."

Unless a fool walks in there after drinking two gallons of straight water (and taking 13 bathroom breaks),  there is slim to none chance of being accused of manipulating your urine sample.

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