Failed Using CMs

[Polyreject]

Marty:


Marty's question

In retrospect, how do you think your poly response to controls differed from normal fear of detection to a lie?

Response

I'm not sure how to answer this question.  If I had to guess I would say that by using CMs my responses on the controls exceeded what my response normally would have been in a lie.
 
Marty's Question

If you had chosen not to use cm's, but had read TLBTLD, then you would be what is called an "informed" examinee. Do you think you would have responded more on the controls or less on the controls than you would have if you were unaware of the true purpose of the control questions.

Response

I would probably have responded less.  The reason I say yes to this question is because I would imagine that the CMs are intended to produce a larger response that a normal lie (thus enabling someone who is lying to beat the test)
 
Marty's Question

So how would you advise people who have read TLBTLD who don't intend to use cm's (as you wish you had done) when asked the control questions in pre-test?
Should they lie, and then lie on the control, or should they tell the examiner that those are controls and they intent to be fully honest and not lie on them? What are your thoughts?

Response

I wish I could answer this question, but I cannot.  Based on my experience CMs can be detected.  Maybe not all, but certainly the ones I used are detectable.  My advice for someone who has nothing to hide would be not to worry about the test and certainly don't learn to beat it.  Now if you have something to hide and are trying to beat the test, then I think you should take a long hard look at your personal integrity and ask yourself if you are cut out to take the office you are about to enter.  I don't know about you, but I certainly don't want someone who has something to hide to enter a sensitive government position.  

[polyfool]

Polyreject:

Don't you think you made a mistake by choosing to employ more than one type of breathing CM? Why didn't you just stick with one? I'm under the impression that the examiner is looking for a consistent reaction to the controls---what is the truthful examinee's response to the controls when lying or stressed? Didn't you say you changed your breathing between the different charts?

P.S. Your friend is right--being truthful during an FBI polygraph is not enough.    

[Marty]

I wish I could answer this question, but I cannot.  Based on my experience CMs can be detected.  Maybe not all, but certainly the ones I used are detectable.  My advice for someone who has nothing to hide would be not to worry about the test and certainly don't learn to beat it.  Now if you have something to hide and are trying to beat the test, then I think you should take a long hard look at your personal integrity and ask yourself if you are cut out to take the office you are about to enter.  I don't know about you, but I certainly don't want someone who has something to hide to enter a sensitive government position.  

I quite agree that no one should lie on a relevant question (and hence lie about their qualifications, to get a job of trust, and not just in government. I poorly worded my question. I meant to refer only to lying on the control questions (as presumed by the polygrapher). Would you suggest applicants, who do not intend to use cm's, lie on the controls or disclose their knowledge of the test and ask whether the examiner wishes them to lie - or just answer yes, or just persist in a "yes"?

Interestingly, what little discussion there is in polygraph literature of someone who is being truly "completely honest" and in not informed but refuses to lie on a control question, the suggestion is to simply allow a "yes" answer and score it just as if the answer is "no". Presumably, by that point they are sufficiently sensitzed to the question that whatever the answer, it should produce a larger response than the ndi relevants.

marty

[Bill Crider]

i tried honesty 4 times and failed all 4, so F*#k you.
Sorry, do i seem a bit angry?

[anxietyguy]

This is the first experience I have ever heard of,you must have contracted the sphincter muscle too tight and too quick. That in my opinion would be a give away. Unless you didn't do the breathing correctly either. I know your response will be that you followed the TLBTLD to a T; but we may both never know unless we see the charts.

[polyfool]

All the complete honesty approach got me during a polygraph was a tense, unpleasant interrogation followed by a  "not within acceptable parameters" letter.

[Polyreject]

Polyfool

The reason I changed my breathing on different charts was because Doug Williams told me it was ok to do that.  It says so on his manual, and he even told me so over email and the phone.  

[Polyreject]

Anxietyguy

I do not doubt that I may have over used the anal CM (tightened too much).  I am going to request my chart via FOIA.  If George permits I am ok with posting the chart on the website so everyone can see.  Would it be possible that the chart produced indicated such a high degree of truthfulness due to the over tightening of the anal CM that it was obvious CMs were being used?  

And for those who are wondering, how much tension should one use on the anal CM?   I don't believe I ever tightened even half as much as I could have

[Polyreject]

Marty:

In my opinion such lies on the control questions may pose a problem because the polygrapher expects a "no" response in which he knows you are lying.   I remember in my pretest we went over such questions.  For example, he said "we don't want people working here who lie to their superiors, so let me ask you this, have you ever lied to a supervisor"  Now, of course at some point in my life I knew I had lied to a boss, but realizing it was a control I just said no and gave him what he wanted.  If I had said yes, then he would have wanted to hear about the time and place and probably would have changed the question to read "besides that time, have you lied to a superior?  Which my honest response again would probably be yes.  By saying yes and yes over and over again, and giving explanations, then what will probably happen is what you stated, in that your yes will be scored as a no.  So I guess the question now is which shows a larger response a no on a control when you know you are lying or a yes on a control after being sensitized when you know you are not lying?

From what I have read here and elsewhere, disclosing knowledge of the test will lead to failure, but again I'm not certain about that.  So it would probably be best if the examinee who doesn't want to use CM lie on the controls, but then again that is intended and presumed by the polygrapher.  Which means by lying on the controls you are not really beating the test, you are actually going along with it.  

[Polyreject]

George:

Does TLBTLD mention anything about the possibility of being caught using CMs by over tightening the anal muscle?  I don't remember anything about that when I read it, but I think I read the previous edition.  

[anxietyguy]

The contraction is supposed to be very subtle(about 50%). Some describe it as a "staircase" approach. This is why,which I can only speculate as to why you were suspected of countermeasure use. Some polygraphers describe the countermeasure as a "mini-explosion." Which we will never know till we see the charts. Although I can only speculate because I am not a polygrapher. In addition I wonder how a polygrapher can state that a response is too strong? After all, we are all unique and would react differently when different questions are asked. This is why I believe that it would be very hard for a polygrapher to prove countermeasures were employed. Unless you had a rather large uncharacteristic response to each control. Though I would like to hear what George has to say on the topic.

[George W. Maschke]

Polyreject,

It is a mistake to conclude that because your polygrapher told you he thought you were trying to manipulate the results, and you had in fact employed polygraph countermeasures, that your polygrapher had necessarily "detected" your countermeasures. Recall that, as you mentioned above, your polygrapher also apparently thought you had been moving your feet, when in fact you hadn't. Accusations of countermeasure use are not uncommon, and numerous individuals who did not even know what countermeasures are have been wrongly accused of such (myself included).

To date, no polygrapher has demonstrated any ability to detect the kinds of countermeasures outlined in The Lie Behind the Lie Detector. There are no articles or book chapters in the polygraph literature that explain how to detect such countermeasures, and the available peer-reviewed research on countermeasures suggests that even experienced polygraphers cannot detect them at better-than-chance levels of accuracy. Under the circumstances, it is perhaps not surprising that Dr. Drew C. Richardson's polygraph countermeasure challenge has gone more than three years now without a single taker. For further information, see pp. 156-162 of the 4th edition of TLBTLD (beginning with the subchapter "Can't Polygraphers Detect Countermeasures").

While it is not clear precisely what criteria polygraphers may be using to make accusations of attempted countermeasure use, I understand that there is a maxim amongst polygraphers that "if a reaction looks too good to be true, it probably is." It is possible that if reactions to "control" questions appear to the polygrapher to be "too big" that countermeasure use may be inferred. But again, documentation is wanting. For relevant discussion, see the message thread, Lies in The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.

As for why some suspected that you might be a polygrapher, there is a precedent of polygraphers forging posts on this message board. Examples include:

thevet2/checking (who also posted in this thread as "darkcobra2005")

AnalSphincter/LoopyLuWho

usarmyofficer2004

PolySucks/Cancerman

Policeman

nopoly/POLYSCORE

Zena/Boy_Wonder

[polyfool]

Polyreject:

The TLBTLD does make reference to over tightening the anal muscle. If I recall correctly, I believe it says something like "a little goes a long way," and warns not to overdo it. I was indirectly accused of "trying to manipulate" my first test and I knew absolutely nothing about countermeasures or the polygraph's inaccuracy. In the second test, I was directly accused of countermeasure use and then told I was still "having trouble" with the drug questions. The point is, polygraph examiners do not know when one is employing countermeasures, they're just bluffing. Thanks for answering  all my questions.    

[Polyreject]

George and others:

My intuition tells me that this polygrapher and maybe others suspect CM use when there is a significant reaction to control questions.  But let me ask you all this:

What is the reaction difference between a normal lie on a control, and a control manipulated by a CM?  (Let's say the anal CM)

If there is a substantial difference between the two, then I can't imagine the polygrapher having too difficult of the time distinguishing between them.  On this point, if I were a polygrapher, which I'm not (and I know some of you think that I am) why would I answer Dr. Richardson's challenge and give away my secret???

I have a hard time accepting the notion that polygraphers randomly accuse people of using CMs. (I'm sure it has happened, but it does not make sense for this practice to be the norm)

If random CM accusations are given by polygraphers then I would imagine they would be intended to elicit a confession of CM use.  (This idea would be especially true, if examiners really cannot detect CMs, which I'm not so sure about).

However, if no such confession is rendered then it seems counter-intuitive for the sake of the agency's hiring practice to label the person as using CMs nonetheless and dismiss their application.

Having worked for the fed gov't in the past, I know that it is far from perfect.  But to suggest that CM accusations are randomly made, when the polygrapher truly cannot detect CM use, and applicants are subsequently disqualified even without making a confession, then that is essentially saying that the agencies adhere to a level of conspiratorial behavior that is so far-fetched it is nearly unbelievable.

[Polyreject]

George:

How do I retrieve my file via FOIA?  Who do I write to and what do I ask for?

Also, if I get my chart, will you post it on this website?

I have no other reason for wanting to re-live this miserable experience unless it can really benefit another in the future.