"how to sting the polygraph"

[Fair Chance]

.  A truly innocent examinee who wishes to employ CM’s is definitely hurting their chances on passing an examination.

Dear Saidme,

What about the truly innocent examinee who is completely truthful, does not use any form of countermeasures, and is accused of countermeasures and failed?  There is not much recourse in the FBI.  You are guilty until proven innocent and you can not prove yourself innocent because they refuse to go to background if you "failed" (and thus might shoot themselves in the foot when nothing is found).  In my case this happened and I can assure you that I used no countermeasures.  I only wish I could get hold of my charts just to see what this guy was talking about.

[Poly-Killer]

I have used CMs and passed not 1, not 2, but THREE polys. Saidme, like most poly-screeners, is blowing smoke. It's easy, on an anti-poly site, where people are coming everyday to educate themselves on this scam, to say "don't do this or you'll be caught". If I were in danger of losing the dark cloud of mystery and deceit on which my career hinged, I'd probably do what I could to slow it down too.

Nice try Saidme, kudos for the effort.  

Do you have any plans for your next career? Going back to school? The local fast food restaurant? Bartending?

Just curious,
PK

[Saidme]

Such anger

Let me respond to you guys one at a time.  

Drew, with regards to the spelling.  I cut and pasted.  Apparently the cut and pasting was not catching all your text.  

Wombat, I've yet to see a 100% cool calm customer walk into a polygraph examination.  It just doesn't happen.  The very thought of going through the process cause anxiety.  Examinee's may not show their anxiety, but I assure you, it's there.  So to answer your question, probably so.  But that would be the exception, not the rule.

Poly-Killer (how dramatic), I don't know the circumstances surrounding your polygraph examination (specific issue, screening, CSP) so I can't really comment on your alleged feat.  What was the relevant issue that caused you to use CM's?  Was it criminal activity, serious crime, drugs?  I would like to hear about the relevant issue which you needed to overcome to get through your polygraph test.  I would be curious to know.  If you didn't have any problems with the relevant questions and used CM's just to assist yourself, how do you know it wasn't your truthful responses that got you through the test?  I think George stated earlier that there really is no way to distinguish the difference.  

[George W. Maschke]

Saidme,

Onesimus asked you:

So how many people have you caught using countermeasures that didn't tell you they were using them?  By caught I mean a conclusive demonstration that would pass scientific muster.

to which you replied:

None that I?m aware of.  Those whom I?ve suspected of CM?s have confirmed my suspicions by telling me where they obtained their information and what CM?s they were employing.  I don?t believe it?s an examiner?s job to pass ?scientific muster? when it comes to identifying CM?s.  

So then, the only countermeasures you have "detected" are those by subjects who were dumb enough to admit it...

[Poly-Killer]

Saidme,

You can read all about my experiences in my initial post in...    "Polygraph and CVSA Forums / Share Your Polygraph or CVSA Experience / Re: TO read or not to read the the truth behind poly.  May 1st, 2003, 10:14pm"  

You can feel free to respond with all the moral bs and how I shouldn't have lied...yada yada yada...but before you do, I've heard it all before...so I have a healthy backlog of retorts to any issue of "integrity" you might raise.  

Nonetheless, I have effectively laid to waste 3 "tests" and 3 different examiners. Granted, I did have a little "inside help", but it was, for the most part, EXACTLY the kind CM's that are described in TLBTLD, that I used on all my "tests" with the exception of a little "hands-on" experience before my first test. They were not the specific-issue format, they were screening "tests".

The fact is, once the shroud of mystery is lifted and poly-screening is exposed for the fraud that it is, it just becomes a sick joke for anyone who educates themselves on your "lie-detector tests" and there is a huge "reversal of fortune", so to speak. Because now the examiner is the one duped into thinking he/she is in control. I am thoroughly, 100% convinced that properly applied CMs cannot be detected with any kind of real "accuracy". Sure, you may take a shot and arbitrarily accuse someone of CMs, or catch someone applying them improperly or at improper times, but that is not a true measure of the ability to detect countermeasures, you only catch people who screw them up, hell...my 11-year-old could be taught to do that.

After all, the ones who have properly applied the CMs have very likely slipped right in under your radar, and you were none the wiser.

What state are you in? Maybe you're one of the examiners I stuck it to. I'll make it easy for you, Im in Arizona, a state whose law REQUIRES a polygraph for all LEOs.  




Best,
PK

[beech trees]

I've yet to see a 100% cool calm customer walk into a polygraph examination.  It just doesn't happen.  The very thought of going through the process cause anxiety.  Examinee's may not show their anxiety, but I assure you, it's there.  So to answer your question, probably so.  But that would be the exception, not the rule.

The fully enlightened polygraph examinee knows that you expect this, saidme, and thus uses not only physical and/or physiological countermeasures, but also behavioral countermeasures.

On another note, it's rather sad that even the totally honest, earnest folks who must pass through your doors get jacked up 'wondering' what they did wrong and whether they will pass your subjective, unscientific test. I see it's quite a point of pride with you, so I won't belabour that point however.

[Saidme]

Geoge

Unfortunately those "dumb enough to admit it" are your clients (for lack of a better word).  

Poly-Killer

I don't really have the time to research all the drivel that's has taken place on this site and I'm not going to preach any "integrity bs" to you either.  You must be proud of yourself.  No, I'm not in Arizona but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express.

Beech Trees

Those innocents that come through the door are entering a profession that places alot of stress on their daily lives.  If they can't deal with a simple polygraph examination then they should seriously reconsider the profession they've chose.  A polygraph examination will be the least of their problems as their careers progress.

[George W. Maschke]

Saidme,

I observed:

So then, the only countermeasures you have "detected" are those by subjects who were dumb enough to admit it...

to which you replied:

Unfortunately those "dumb enough to admit it" are your clients (for lack of a better word).

No doubt, people of varying intelligence read the information available on AntiPolygraph.org. The more intelligent ones would follow our recommendation (in Chapter 4 of TLBTLD) to refuse to submit to a polygraph interrogation regarding any criminal matter. But the point I was trying to make is that if the only countermeasures you "detect" are those performed by subjects who admit to countermeasure use, then you're not really "detecting" countermeasures at all.

[Poly-Killer]

Saidme,

You were the one who asked for the info surrounding my "alleged feats", so I provided it. For someone who lacks time to do research, you seem to post here with regularity lately. Besides, not having time is a poor excuse for something that would only require a couple mouse clicks, I gave you directions that even a polygrapher could follow...very simple. I don't blame you, you would probably find it very troubling, I wouldn't want to read it either if I were you.

By the way, I'm not "proud" that I had to be dishonest, unlike polygraphers, it doesn't come second-nature to me, and there are times I regret having lied. It was a means to an end, and it was well worth it. I'd do it over in again in a heart beat.

I've never stayed at a Holiday Inn Express...not my style.  

Best,
PK

[Saidme]

Poly Killer

I took the time to read your amazing feats.  Congratulations.  During your police career in Arizona, have you had the opportunity to make any drug arrests of youngsters between the ages of 17-20?  If not, do you turn your head when you come across those who are "young and dumb"?  I smell hypocrisy.

[Poly-Killer]

What I did was in no way "amazing"...I was simply lucky enough to be "informed".

"Hypocrisy?"...I NEVER said I was "justified", that smoking pot should be legal, there's nothing wrong with it, etc. I knew it was illegal and that was a chance I took. I was fortunate enough to have not gotten caught, if I had, there would have been no one to blame but myself. The difference is, I WISED UP, I decided I wanted more out of my life than that. Honestly, I think I am a better cop today because of my experiences.

Besides, just so you know, it's not like we're talking about daily, or even weekly marijuana use, more like once a month or less, over a period of about 3 - 4 years. I have never purchased it, it was more a matter of a young man simply wanting to be like his peers, doing what I thought, at the time, was cool.

As far as my drug arrests go, I operate FULLY within the confines of the law. Where the totality of the circumstances permit, and where I believe it will do more good, I may simply have a "youngster" flush his "stash" down the toilet. You can call it hypocrisy, but I don't get off on charging youths with criminal offenses that may haunt them forever, just because they have a joint...that's the way it is in the real world, like it or not.  That's NOT why I became a Police Officer.

Besides, the judges wouldn't like me if I started putting the most minor offenses in front of them on a daily basis because it is counter-productive. Unfortunately, there are more pressing issues in our society today than marijuana use.

Like I said...I've heard it all before...next...?

PK

[Skeptic]

Poly Killer

I took the time to read your amazing feats.  Congratulations.  During your police career in Arizona, have you had the opportunity to make any drug arrests of youngsters between the ages of 17-20?  If not, do you turn your head when you come across those who are "young and dumb"?  I smell hypocrisy.

As someone who used countermeasures during two NSA polygraphs without detection and with some success, I take issue with the idea that their use constitutes an "amazing feat" (and no, I'm not working there now -- I didn't relish the idea of going through the emotional hell of a polygraph every five years or so).  Countermeasures are not difficult, and evidently they're not detectable by the (presumably) best-trained and best-informed polygraphers anywhere.

Skeptic

[Skeptic]

Those innocents that come through the door are entering a profession that places alot of stress on their daily lives.  If they can't deal with a simple polygraph examination then they should seriously reconsider the profession they've chose.  A polygraph examination will be the least of their problems as their careers progress.

Have you ever taken a polygraph, Saidme?

Skeptic

[suethem]

Saidme,

Suggesting that the polygraph is some kind of test to determine whether or not an officer/agent can handle the stress of the actual job is quite ridiculous.

The idea that you place any value in that type of determination further undermines your position and credibility.  

Should they polygraph surgeons to see if the can handle the stress of surgery?  What about air traffic controllers, stock brokers, teachers, construction workers...

What else can the magical polygraph do?-  slice vegetables?

Looking at your posts a reader can clearly deduce that it's simply a confession machine!!

 I know I could never be a polygrapher because I couldn't stomach accusing everyone, just to be right some of the time.

There is a reason that sharpshooters have very accurate weapons, and strict rules of engagement.

I picture polygraphers as wannabe swat guys on the roof, banging away at a crowd with a shotgun.  You get excited when you get a couple of bad guys and the innocents, that get it in the process, are just shrugged off as the price of doing business.

Not caring about what happens to the greater community is the sign of someone who should not be in law enforcement!  


 

[Poly-Killer]

...I smell hypocrisy.

I just thought about something (OK, Im slow today)...Is it just me, or does anyone else find it ironic that a person who MAKES A LIVING BY LYING talks about HYPOCRISY?  

Saidme,

You ever hear the saying "Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones"? In terms of hypocrisy, your house is made of EXTREMELY thin glass.

PK