i want to be a police officer

[louie_417]

hi, im 19yrs old and i need some advice from u guys.  Well im starting to take admin of justice classes next semester at a community college nearby to earn my AA degree in law enforcement and the only thing im scared of is the polygraph test.  I have a clean record, the only thing is my drug use back in highschool when i was a junior(16yrs old). I was experimenting with drugs like marijuana,lsd and meth.  I really regret wut i have done in the past.  I have been clean for like 3yrs and i really want to be a police officer.  Do u guys think i can really cheat this polygraph test if i study the "Lie-Behind-The-Lie-Detector???

[Skeptic]

hi, im 19yrs old and i need some advice from u guys.  Well im starting to take admin of justice classes next semester at a community college nearby to earn my AA degree in law enforcement and the only thing im scared of is the polygraph test.  I have a clean record, the only thing is my drug use back in highschool when i was a junior(16yrs old). I was experimenting with drugs like marijuana,lsd and meth.  I really regret wut i have done in the past.  I have been clean for like 3yrs and i really want to be a police officer.  Do u guys think i can really cheat this polygraph test if i study the "Lie-Behind-The-Lie-Detector???

The lie detector test may be beaten with countermeasures, which is one reason why its use needs to be discontinued.  I would recommend that anyone who wants to go through one practice and use countermeasures.

Additionally, my recommendation to you would be to find out what the drug use requirements are for the department where you are applying, and make sure you meet them.

To the best of my knowledge, in most places, drug use is not a permanent disqualifier, especially if it occurred before age 18.  You will likely need to have been clean for a certain length of time.  Once that length of time goes by, apply to the department, admit your drug use, express your regret and subsequent drug-free behavior, and leave it at that.

The thing is, the polygraph isn't the only thing you'll face.  They'll likely do a background check as well, which may uncover your drug use anyway.

You have a responsibility to the department and the public you'll be serving to meet the requirements of the job.  That means answering relevant questions honestly.

Skeptic

[Batman (Guest)]

You know Skeptic, you're a first class...

You tell this kid that, "I would recommend that anyone who wants to go through one (polygraph) practice and use countermeasures."

Then you go on to tell him how honest he should be.  What kind of advice is that?

Louie, you'll probably take a hit because of the LSD use, and the meth use isn't going to help either.  You need to ask some of your Profs what they know about how various departments would react to the LSD use.  I recommend that only because in most CC's the instructors have some level of Law Enforcement background and/or connections, so they should be able to get you an answer.  If you have a particular department in mind you may be able to query them.

As for the polygraph, if the time comes for you to take one that means you have at least progressed somewhat down the application road.  Hopefully you will have been totally honest during the process and the full extent of your past drug use will already be out in the open.  If you try to hide it, and then attempt to use countermeasures, and get caught, your integrity will be shot, as will your chances of getting hired.

The second part of Skeptic's advise is OK, but ignore his first couple of sentences.  Keep in mind, he has to stay in good stead with his anti-polygraph buds on this site, so he did a little CYA'ing at your expense.  So as a result he sends a conflicting message.

Good luck, keep clean, be honest, and things will work out for you!

Batman

[Skeptic]

You know Skeptic, you're a first class...

You tell this kid that, "I would recommend that anyone who wants to go through one (polygraph) practice and use countermeasures."

Then you go on to tell him how honest he should be.  What kind of advice is that?

It's pretty simple to anyone but a polygrapher -- and it should be noted for the sake of the reader that "Batman" is a polygrapher.  It is truly a pity that he evidently feels his message is so weak that he must attack the messenger, instead.

The polygraph is simply too error-prone to trust your fate to it.  Pure and simple.  I would recommend that anyone who has to face such a procedure use countermeasures to ensure a correct outcome on the test.  Otherwise, you carry a greater risk of becoming an "acceptable loss".

Skeptic

[Skeptic]

Just to clarify -- I feel it would be preferable to tell the department with which you will be applying that you are familiar with polygraph procedure, flaws and countermeasures and indicate you aren't an appropriate candidate for polygraph "testing".  It should be noted, however, that such an approach carries a larger risk of disqualification in some places.  You can read more about these options in the book available from this site, "The Lie Behind the Lie Detector".

The choice is certainly up to you -- it's your career.

Skeptic

[beech trees]

You tell this kid that, "I would recommend that anyone who wants to go through one (polygraph) practice and use countermeasures."

Then you go on to tell him how honest he should be.  What kind of advice is that?

Really good advice, in my opinion. Since the polygraph is incapable of detecting truth or honesty, skeptic's two-pronged advice is quite sound.

The second part of Skeptic's advise is OK, but ignore his first couple of sentences.  Keep in mind, he has to stay in good stead with his anti-polygraph buds on this site, so he did a little CYA'ing at your expense.  So as a result he sends a conflicting message.

Skeptic was dead on with his advice on all counts. Bear in mind, Louie, batman is an admitted professional liar (he finally copped to being a polygrapher after intentionally misleading us by ever-so-carefully choosing his words to give himself the slimmest possible wiggle room to evade the truth of the matter). He has to keep bread on the table so he continues with his propoganda here to cover his own ass.

Rule Number One: Never trust a polygrapher
Rule Number Two: When a polygrapher tells you to trust him, refer to Rule Number One.

[Public Servant]

Louie,

If you read most of Beech Trees posts throughout this site, you'll see he does not trust members of the law enforcement community in general.  In fact, I don't believe he trusts anyone in public service and perhaps not anyone outside his own inner circle.  Though he is a bit paranoid and misguided, he does at least seem to be a patriot and perhaps well-intentioned.  Just be informed about the source before you accept advice.

Here is the bottom line:  Your integrity is everything in law enforcement.  Do not try to use dishonest means to obtain such a job.  If you succeed in lying your way in, it will only serve to encourage more dishonesty in a profession wherein you are held to the highest standards by the community (and as you can see from this site, get little praise in return).  Good luck in making your decision and put the drug scene far behind you!!

[beech trees]

Louie,

If you read most of Beech Trees posts throughout this site, you'll see he does not trust members of the law enforcement community in general.  In fact, I don't believe he trusts anyone in public service and perhaps not anyone outside his own inner circle.  Though he is a bit paranoid and misguided, he does at least seem to be a patriot and perhaps well-intentioned.  Just be informed about the source before you accept advice.

Louie,

If you read any of my posts you will quickly realize:

1. public servant is lying about the nature of my posts, he's lying about what I think and believe, and he's lying to you now when he tells you to trust the corrupt system of which he is an integral part (by 'corrupt system' I mean the systematic use of the polygraph in pre-employment settings, not law enforcement as a whole).

2. He will do or say anything here to get you to believe the lie behind the lie detector. Don't believe him. Use that big gray organ God gave you and research the debate here.

Here is the bottom line:  Your integrity is everything in law enforcement.  Do not try to use dishonest means to obtain such a job.  If you succeed in lying your way in, it will only serve to encourage more dishonesty in a profession wherein you are held to the highest standards by the community (and as you can see from this site, get little praise in return).  Good luck in making your decision and put the drug scene far behind you!!

Pretty good advice overall. The only thing I would add is, don't trust your lying polygrapher when he tells you that the polygraph is an accurate means of evaluating your integrity. In fact, you might want to reflect on the fact that if you do apply to a department that uses polygraphy as part of their pre-employment screening, the *only* person who will lie to you during that process is your polygraph interrogator (men like 'public servant' here). Think on this, and good luck to you.

[Batman (Guest)]

Louie,

I apologize for all the crap you have to read though on this thread regarding the polygraph works/doesn't work debate.

Yes I am a polygraph examiner, however my original advice to you had nothing to do with the ongoing debate here.  It was given in all sincerity, in your best interests.

Be honest throughout your application process.  If you try to hide any past illegal activity, it will come back to bite you in the ass.  If you are truthful during the entire process, to include revealing the full extent of your drug use, you stand a much better chance of being successful in your endeavor to become a police officer.  There are no guarantees.  You may apply with a department that considers use of LSD a disqulifier.  If that is the case, so be it, but let that department make that decision based on truthful facts.  Do not lie and then try to "verify" that lie by using countermeasures on your polygraph exam, if one is required.  Even if you succeeded in "beating" the polygrapher, there is always a good chance that someone in your past, if interviewed, will mention what you were attempting to hide.  If this happens, your dismissal will be the only thing guaranteed, along with losing all your chances of getting hired by any other departments.

Please, if you are dedicated to getting into the law enforcement career field, do not start it with a lie.  Even if your honesty costs you some opportunities, at least you will be able to walk out with you head held high.  Sounds corny, and old fashioned, but believe me, it is the best way to go.

Again, good luck, stay clean, and be honest throughout the entire application process.

Batman  

[beech trees]

Louie,

If your head isn't spinning yet, hang on as I'm sure my next message to you will accomplish that.

While the exhortations to be honest during your polygraph might seem to be well-meant advice, bear in mind that your polygrapher expects you to lie during the course of your charted exam. You read that correctly. Quoting The Lie Behind The Lie Detector:

The theory is that when you answer the question "no," you must still be withholding something, or at least feel uneasy
about not remembering some incident from long ago. The polygrapher
treats your response to this question as though it were a lie.
The polygrapher assumes that if your physiological responses as
measured by the polygraph are stronger when answering a relevant
question (e.g. "Have you violated this agency's guidelines concerning the use of illegal drugs?") than when answering the "control" questions
(e.g. "Have you ever lied to a loved one?"), then you must
have been deceptive in answering the relevant question. If your
physiological responses while answering the "control" questions are
greater, then you must be telling the truth in answering the relevant
question. And if your physiological responses while answering the
relevant and "control" questions are about the same, then the outcome will be deemed inconclusive. If these assumptions seem overly simplistic to you, you're right.--pgs. 82-83

Ponder that, Louie. Your polygrapher lies to you repeatedly throughout your interrogation, urges you to be honest, and expects you to be a liar.

It is a totally corrupt, worthless practice. Yes, please exercise all manner of honesty when applying for your position. No, don't believe a word a polygrapher tells you.

[Batman (Guest)]

Louie,

The following are quotes are from a posting by Beech Trees under the thread, A New Kind of Polygraph, 11/22/02 at 13:51

"I answered truthfully except...";
 
"I lied to my interrogator...";

"I also lied during the actual charted exam when he asked questions such as 'have you been entirely truthful with me today?'...";
 
"I lied as they related to honesty during the pre-test interview..."

"I lied during the pre-test about what I knew about polygraphy..."

"I had to then lie about lying..."

Louie, now you make the call as to whose advice you want to consider as more sincere and credible.

My advice to you has nothing to do about polygraph; it simply centers on being honest.  Individuals like Mr. Trees want to turn your simple request for advice into a portion of their ongoing debate about polygraph.  They want you to believe that because a polygraph examiner introduces certain questions used during the polygraph process in such a way as to give the truthful examinee others options for which to focus his concerns, that the examiner is now being "dishonest", and this "dishonesty" reflects on how he conducts himself in his everyday affairs.  

Louie, I have got to believe that since you are mature enough to recognize your mistake of using illegal drugs, and to have stopped using them, you are also mature enough to recognize the faulty logic about "honesty" as presented to you by folks like Mr. Trees.

Again, simply apply the honesty is the best policy rule and regardless of the final outcome, you will come out on top.  If you choose the routes presented to you by Mr. Trees and Skeptic, you will end up making posts on this site, similar to those of Beech Trees, wherein you state all the lies you have told, and how you lied about those lies.

Batman

[George W. Maschke]

Louie,

The short answer to your question, "Do u guys think i can really cheat this polygraph test if i study the 'Lie-Behind-The-Lie-Detector?'" is yes. If you study and practice the countermeasures detailed in The Lie Behind the Lie Detector, you will likely be able to pass any pre-employment polygraph "test," whether or not you choose to tell the truth with regard to the relevant questions.

As you read the replies that have been posted here by Skeptic, Beech Trees, Public Servant, and Batman, I think you'll find that the polygraph critics and practitioners are in agreement on one key point: law enforcement applicants have an ethical duty to be truthful with regard to the relevant questions asked during a pre-employment polygraph examination. I share this view.

However, you need to be aware that whether or not you choose to be truthful with your polygrapher, your polygrapher will be less than truthful with you. Polygraph "testing" is a pseudoscientific fraud that fundamentally depends on the polygrapher lying to and otherwise deceiving the person being "tested." You'll find this trickery exposed in detail in Chapter 3 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.

The National Academy of Sciences has determined that polygraph screening is without validity. To protect against the high risk of a false positive outcome associated with this invalid procedure, it is in the interest of truthful applicants facing a pre-employment polygraph examination to study, practice, and employ countermeasures.

[yankeedog]

Louie,

   You've had the chance to read a number of responses on what to do, and what not to do.  And when you go in for your polygraph test, it will be YOU, not these people who give you advise, that must decide and answer the question.....Am I going to be an honest law enforcement officer, or shall I start my career by engaging in dishonesty?   "IF" the polygraph is being used as it should be used in the pre-employment process, it will not be the sole basis for a determination about you getting the job.  "IF" it is being used in an inappropriate manner, you don't want to work for that agency anyway.  And remember, in some jurisdictions, law enforcement is required to report to the District Attorney/State Attorney, that they have identified one of their officers as being dishonest and lying about official police matters.  Once that happens, you are of no value whatsoever to the law enforcement agency and you will be discredited every time take the witness stand.  And guess what happens to your career then?  That's correct.  You won't have a job anymore. By all means, read the book.  There is alot of interesting information in it.  However, there is alot that is NOT put in this book.  And that Louie, is what is going to get you in trouble.  You have no idea what type of test you will be given.  And even if you THINK you do, you could be wrong, and that is going to cause you a problem.  A professional examiner is going to do whatever they can to get you through (to pass or be non-deceptive) to the test. So Louie, the decision is yours.  Are you going be honest, and in the apparent opinion of some, above the polygraph examiner.  Good luck.

[beech trees]

Louie,

The following are quotes are from a posting by Beech Trees under the thread, A New Kind of Polygraph, 11/22/02 at 13:51

"I answered truthfully except...";

"I lied to my interrogator...";

"I also lied during the actual charted exam when he asked questions such as 'have you been entirely truthful with me today?'...";

"I lied as they related to honesty during the pre-test interview..."

"I lied during the pre-test about what I knew about polygraphy..."

"I had to then lie about lying..."

Louie, now you make the call as to whose advice you want to consider as more sincere and credible.

My advice to you has nothing to do about polygraph; it simply centers on being honest.  Individuals like Mr. Trees want to turn your simple request for advice into a portion of their ongoing debate about polygraph.  They want you to believe that because a polygraph examiner introduces certain questions used during the polygraph process in such a way as to give the truthful examinee others options for which to focus his concerns, that the examiner is now being "dishonest", and this "dishonesty" reflects on how he conducts himself in his everyday affairs.  

Louie, I have got to believe that since you are mature enough to recognize your mistake of using illegal drugs, and to have stopped using them, you are also mature enough to recognize the faulty logic about "honesty" as presented to you by folks like Mr. Trees.

Again, simply apply the honesty is the best policy rule and regardless of the final outcome, you will come out on top.  If you choose the routes presented to you by Mr. Trees and Skeptic, you will end up making posts on this site, similar to those of Beech Trees, wherein you state all the lies you have told, and how you lied about those lies.

Batman

Nicely done Batman! I would expect nothing less from a polygrapher. Louie, what you see above is classic modus operandi from a professional liar (I'm just an amateur hack compared to batman).

He adroitly cut and pasted only those responses that seemed to brand me as a 'big fat liar' and assembled them into a devastating character assasination attempt in order to help sway your decions about right and wrong with regard to submitting to a polygraph interrogation (and what to do when sitting opposite a professional master of deceit).

Louie, you too can expect any feedback you give to your polygrapher (outside of firm denials) to be twisted and manipulated into a damaging admission, just as batman did above. Polygraphers live and die by how many applicants they chew up and spit out.

Perhaps the most sickening aspect of this whole sordid dilemma... whereas I consciously chose to understand and embrace the corrupt process and use it to my advantage (while remaining as absolutely honest as I could given the absurd nature of the test itself), men like batman will never admit how many lives they have ruined, how many innocent people they branded as liars, how many careers they have unjustly ended, how many false confessions they have obtained, all through lying to themselves and their interrogation subjects about the true nature of the polygraph, the 'lie behind the lie detector'.

When asked here about the unfortunate need to lie during my polygraph, I answered truthfully and candidly. I failed to mention the days of agonizing over what do to do prior to the exam. I failed to mention my hard-edged bitterness I felt at having my future determined by an absurd, illogical, unscientific process by men who lie for a living, and my final resolve to take control of my future and opt-out of the crap shoot. Once I found out the lie behind the lie detector, there was simply NO WAY IN HELL I would submit to the polygraph and simply rely on the good nature of my polygraph interrogator to 'get me through the process'-- if nothing else the repeated libel and outrageous lies you see posted constantly here by the pro-polygraph side should be ample illustration that polygraphers don't deserve your honesty, because they give none in return. "Trust the process... We want to help you get through this" they croon. Don't trust the process, Louie. They don't want to help you.

Mark Twain once wrote, Never tell the truth to people who are not worthy of it. He must have run across a polygrapher or two in his day!

Note that I am NOT exhorting you to lie about major events or experiences in your life that would preclude you from becoming a police officer in the department of your choice. Reasonable men understand right from wrong, and I think anyone, pro or anti-polygraph, would understand the turpitude behind such an act. All I am trying to do is to tell you to understand the true nature of a pre-employment polygraph screening 'test' and then decide for yourself, based on your own moral compass, how to best proceed. And that Louie, is no lie.

Dave

PS Batman, you have failed yet again to answer a direct question posed to you. Question: Would a polygrapher who administered an exam to a woman whom he knew to be 6 months pregnant be an idiot?

[polylawman]

A pregnant woman should NEVER be polygraphed. Period