Doug Williams Polygraph Trial Discussion Thread

[Wandersmann]

Proven by whom?Someone's opinion?Opinions are like assholes.Everybody has one.

Where have you been Quickfix ?  Ana Belen Montes and Aldrich Ames proved the polygraph is a fraud when they passed and then were later convicted of espionage.   I have seen lots of innocent lives ruined by the polygraph.  If someone has nothing against them except a failed polygraph and they lose their livelihood because of it, you'd have to be a demented Nazi to continue to support the current use polygraph.  If not a demented Nazi, maybe just an incompetent investigator who can't solve a case and has no moral problems with ruining innocent lives in order to make a buck.  I've seen how hard real investigators work to solve a case and to see polygraph examiners falsely condemn someone by interpreting squiggly lines on a piece of paper is fraud and a crime against humanity.   I suspect you are an atheist POS, but if you do have any belief in anything above yourself you might want to check out the IXth Commandment - "Do not bear false witness against thy neighbor."      

[Wandersmann]

Where have you been Quickfix ?

Quickfix - I just had an epiphany......my blood has been boiling for no reason.  All of your rantings have basically said the same thing....the polygraph is perfect and anyone who fails a polygraph is guilty.  It just struck me that you are the best thing that ever happened to the anti-polygraph community.  Anyone with half a brain that reads your gibberish understands that the polygraph is a joke.  I now suspect you might be part of the anti-polygraph crowd using a false flag approach to win hearts and minds.  If so, thank you and keep up the good work !

[quickfix]

Quickfix - I just had an epiphany......my blood has been boiling for no reason.
Try therapy- see a shrink.

Where have you been Quickfix ? 

I'm right here, watching and listening.

I suspect you are an atheist POS, but if you do have any belief in anything above yourself you might want to check out the IXth Commandment - "Do not bear false witness against thy neighbor."

Here's a better one:  In God we trust, all others we polygraph.  P.S.  the ten commandants are not legally binding.

[George W. Maschke]

Wandersmann, quickfix,

Let us set aside the trading of personal barbs and concentrate here on substantive discussion of U.S. v. Doug Williams. I value both of your perspectives.

While my judgment regarding the merits of polygraphy align much more closely with that of Wandersmann, I am also grateful that quickfix has been willing to share his opposing (and, I am convinced, sincerely held) viewpoints.

So let's look at the next phase of U.S. v. Doug Williams: sentencing. What is the appropriate punishment for the crimes to which Williams has pleaded guilty? It seems to me that, in view of the fact that the only "crimes" alleged are those conceived, planned, and executed by undercover federal agents, despite their access to, and exploitation of, records of nearly 5,000 of Williams' customers, a sentence of probation, with no jail time, would be appropriate (which is not to say that I believe Operation Lie Busters was appropriate to begin with). I do not see how putting Doug Williams in a cage will make any of us any safer. If anyone reading this disagrees, I would be interested in understanding your reasoning therefor.

[quickfix]

Ok, so here's an opposite opinion from the "propolygraph" camp:  let's compare the parallel cases of Doug and Chad Dixon;  Dixon, a novice, with no formal polygraph training, and doing what he was doing for a relatively short time, served 8 months (I don't recall a monetary fine being assessed).  And Doug, by his own admittance "f***ing the government" for what, almost three decades?  At 20 years times 5 counts, max of 100 years prison time, and $250k times 5 counts for $1.25m, maximum punishment seems extreme.  But probation??? I think not, my friend.  5 years confinement and $250k seems appropriate and sends a message that if you intend to assist those who want to gain federal employment through cheating their way through a polygraph, or who wish to get away with a criminal offense, be prepared to pay the price.

[George W. Maschke]

Quickfix,

I can agree with you that the maximum punishment seems extreme, even for a defendant aged 18 years. But let us consider that Williams turns 70 this year, and that any prison sentence could well end up being a life sentence for him. Doesn't that seem harsh to you?

- George

[quickfix]

5 years harsh?  Not at all, at least to me.  He's a cantankerous old bastard, he'll survive!

[Dan Mangan]

In my opinion, a reasonable sentence for DW would be five years, suspended, with minimal supervision.

Daniel Mangan, M.A.
Full Member, American Polygraph Association
Certified PCSOT Examiner

[Ex Member]

After the gloating and high 5's die down, after some reflection, I wonder if the authorities will really want Doug behind bars. I think he will have quite a following eager for his knowledge.

I am still kinda stunned. I recall way back, soon after 9/11 when a martial arts instructor lamented having given instruction to one of the terrorists, no doubt to subdue an aircrew. If the terrorist had told him of his intentions, would the teacher have been prosecuted had he moved forward with the instruction? Is proffering knowledge of how to better perpetrate a crime the same as conspiracy?

I think the only real transgression here is that Doug is guilty of being an a-hole (from the govt's perspective). What should the sentence be for being an a-hole? A fine and probation?

[George W. Maschke]

While a sentencing date has not yet been set, and no pleadings with respect to sentencing have yet been filed with the court, on Friday, 29 May 2015, the prosecution filed a request that Williams be ordered to pay the U.S. Government $7,750, which is the amount that he received from undercover agents in connection with Operation Lie Busters:

litigation/doug-williams/doug-williams-petition-to-enter-plea-of-guilty.pdf

[George W. Maschke]

In my opinion, a reasonable sentence for DW would be five years, suspended, with minimal supervision.

I concur. According to U.S. Bureau of Prisons figures for fiscal year 2012, it cost $19,325 per year to keep a prisoner in a federal minimum security prison. That cost goes up to $51,430 if the prisoner is in medical referral center, which is a possibility in view of Williams' age. By contrast, the annual cost of federal probation was only $3,347.41.

In view of the non-violent nature of Williams' offenses, the unlikelihood of his reoffending, the lack of any documented harm to any actual victim, his advanced age, and the high cost of incarceration, probation seems a more just and rational punishment.

[Wandersmann]

Let us set aside the trading of personal barbs and concentrate here on substantive discussion of U.S. v. Doug Williams. I value both of your perspectives.

Thank you George.  Agreed.  I am just chagrined that not one person in the polygraph community will admit that innocent people are falsely accused and sacrificed by current polygraph practices.  It's like someone saying, "I hear they are killing people in concentration camps", and the unquestioned response being "they are just re-organizing the demographic composition in certain parts of Eastern Europe".  I recommend that everyone view the confirmation hearings for DNI Clapper several years ago.  He was directly confronted with a question pertaining to innocent officials having their lives ruined by the polygraph and he totally evaded the question by maintaining that the polygraph was the best method available.  Unfortunately the questing congressman was not savvy enough or further prepared to follow up and the line of questioning ended there.  Clapper was further revealed to have lied to Congress on other intelligence related issues.  Despite the above, there was absolutely no negative impact on his career or standing.

As far as Doug Williams, his situation may not even justify interest by the anti-polygraph community.  Although it is impossible to truly ascertain his culpability without hearing the complete transcripts of the undercover operation, it appears he may have used poor judgement in allowing the potential for personal gain outweigh his common sense.  Because he plead to a felony I think he will do time, but I've seen what I consider more serious cases get less than a year in prison.  He will undoubtedly receive a long probation and I believe he will be forbidden from discussing his case or anything to do with the polygraph.  He'll probably spend the rest of his life selling his possessions and working as a convenience store clerk.

I recommend reading about the modus operandii of the former East German Stasi.  The methods used by our Justice Department in this case are classical Stasi methods for silencing political opposition.

   Deo Vindice -

      Wandersmann

[Wandersmann]

questing congressman

Make that -  "questioning congressman"

[pappy]

Doug Williams is going down. Chad Dixon went down. Why hasn't George Maschke been indicted yet?  I'm an anti-poly advocate by the way, I'm just wondering how George has evaded prosecution for all these years?

[getrealalready]

The government has picked on weak targets engaged in less than thoughtful activity...George doesn't qualify on either count...