Polygraph and prescription medications.

[Victim]

I am a law-enforcement officer and recently had two false complaints filed against me. To clear myself I took a polygraph. According to the examiners report I failed all questions showing deception and indications of counter measures. This resulted in suspension and more than likely will lead to termination. I know I was totally truthful on the polygraph. I am wondering if my ADHD and depression medications cause this result in my polygraph?

[George W. Maschke]

There is precious little research on the effects of any medications on polygraph outcomes. However, it should be borne in mind that polygraphy has no scientific basis to begin with. You should not be put in the position of having to explain why an invalid test produced erroneous results.

Will you have the opportunity of a hearing regarding the polygraph results? If so, a personalized copy of retired FBI scientist Dr. Drew Richardson's "Evaluation and Opinion of CQT Polygraphy" might be helpful:

https://antipolygraph.org/articles/article-028.shtml

If you e-mail me at maschke@antipolygraph.org, or send me a personal message through this board, I'll be happy to put you (or better yet, your lawyer) in touch with Dr. Richardson.

In addition, if you can obtain a copy of the polygrapher's charts, notes, and importantly, any audio or video recording of your polygraph examination, I would be happy to review them and provide a written critique that you could use in any hearing.

[Dan Mangan]

Victim, speaking as a polygraph professional, I suggest you consider having your exam reviewed by an independent consultant who is a member of the American Polygraph Association.

Understand that the written report of your exam means next to nothing. A full review requires all of the raw polygraph data, plus the entire video.

Many times, an independent review results in nullification of the "test."

If you cannot get your complete polygraph file (with video), assistance from legal counsel or a union official may be in order.

[Ex Member]

...and indications of counter measures.

This seems to be an interesting phenomenon. I wonder if this is just something that is tossed out to see how the examinee reacts. I don't believe "quality" countermeasures can be detected, but then also I would guess that there are not that many walking around out there who have taken the time to learn the concepts, practice and refine countermeasures. In other words, I think much of what examiners suspect as countermeasures are just paranoia induced figments; they are seeing countermeasures under their beds. A fellow approached me once and said that his examiner gave him an inconclusive because of suspected countermeasures. When asked to elaborate, the examiner said "your breathing wasn't right." But, he pocketed the $500 none-the-less.

[Dan Mangan]

Ark, you're exactly right.

Let's put the alleged science aside... one (or more) of a dozen or so potentially fatal flaws could be at play with Victim's "test."

I have yet to review a polygraph "test" -- and I've done many a QA analysis -- that could not be nullified for one reason or another.

[Victim]

I forgot to mention that one of the polygraph questions was in reference to the use of illegal drugs (Have you used any illegal drugs in the last six months?).  According to the polygraph examiners report I also failed this question showing deception and indications of counter measures.  Therefore on December 19, 2014 I took it upon myself to take a drug test (HAIRSTAT 9, hair follicle test for drug use that shows results back six months or longer) at Ark-La-Tex Testing n Marshall, TX.  Today (December 23, 2014) I received the drug test results which showed negative for drug use.  I plan on giving these results to my Chief but i'm not sure this will help because he previously indicated that I will probably be terminated at the next City Counsel meeting which will be sometime after Christmas. 

I thank all of you for the information.

[Dan Mangan]

Victim, challenge the polygraph exam. Get an independent review.

[WifeOfAGoodGuy]

Victim, speaking as a polygraph professional, I suggest you consider having your exam reviewed by an independent consultant who is a member of the American Polygraph Association.

Understand that the written report of your exam means next to nothing. A full review requires all of the raw polygraph data, plus the entire video.

Many times, an independent review results in nullification of the "test."

If you cannot get your complete polygraph file (with video), assistance from legal counsel or a union official may be in order.

Is it possible to ask for this kind of an independent review on a NSA polygraph? 

My husband also has ADHD, and likely has mild Asperger's syndrome.  *I* know that he doesn't have the same kind of affect as normal, neuro-typical people, but a 20-something polygrapher, w/ no more training than a barber, probably doesn't. 

Also, my husband and I are both religious, and he *told them that*.  Thanks to this site, I know that probably flags him for deception.  You can't freaking win with these people!!!!!

Because of his convictions, he won't get on this site, or read anything I've downloaded, or let me try to coach him in any way.  I even tried to slip in some suggestions, and he gave me the "look" and changed the subject. 

He would love this job.  He would be so good at it.  Our family would love the move to the DC area, as well as the chance for him to be the sole provider, and me to stay home with the kids/work on my art.  It ticks me off, and hacks at my sense of justice/fairness, that his job opportunity could be torpedoed thanks to the skewed sense of some under-trained polygrapher, and his super-strong conscience. 

Rant over.  

[quickfix]

WifeofAGoodGuy:  a rant is exactly what your post is.  Let's review your post:

My husband also has ADHD, and likely has mild Asperger's syndrome.*I* know that he doesn't have the same kind of affect as normal, neuro-typical people, but a 20-something polygrapher, w/ no more training than a barber, probably doesn't.

Ok, and you know the examiner was a 20-something how?  Were you there?  Did the examiner inform you he was a 20-something?  Of course not. 

Also, my husband and I are both religious, and he *told them that*.Thanks to this site, I know that probably flags him for deception.You can't freaking win with these people!!!!!

Being religious "flags one for deception"?  Really???  Which religion?  Jew?  Gentile? Muslim?  Your statement is utterly ridiculous.  Why?  Because DOD regulations specifically prohibit issues of race, religion, and political beliefs from being addressed during any DOD polygraph exam.  Furthermore, federal agencies prohibit any discussion of religious topics, either during pretest or posttest. 

Because of his convictions, he won't get on this site, or read anything I've downloaded, or let me try to coach him in any way.I even tried to slip in some suggestions, and he gave me the "look" and changed the subject.

This statement is more comical than ridiculous.  If you're both religious, then why are you researching this but your husband is not???  Perhaps you're both of different religions, and his condemns him to eternal hell if he researches polygraph!!

And to answer your initial question, an independent review was already conducted by senior NSA polygraph supervisors.  If they did not concur, your husband would have been invited back for a retest.

Oh, and BTW, any idiot with a PhD can call himself "Doctor";  unless he is a medically-trained physician, he is not a doctor, just someone with a doctorate, like "Dr" Richardson.

[Ex Member]

but a 20-something polygrapher, w/ no more training than a barber

I really don't think age has much to do with it. But, your "barber" analogy is fitting. Both trades require a couple months of training. But, does a barber get better over the years? Does his skill improve with a thousand or more haircuts? The answer is probably not much as after a hundred or so, he's reached the threshold of the asymptote. I see often on polygraphers' websites how they boast of having done 10,000 or more polygraphs, but most likely their skills were already honed after the first hundred or so.

[WifeOfAGoodGuy]

WifeofAGoodGuy:  a rant is exactly what your post is.  Let's review your post:

My husband also has ADHD, and likely has mild Asperger's syndrome.*I* know that he doesn't have the same kind of affect as normal, neuro-typical people, but a 20-something polygrapher, w/ no more training than a barber, probably doesn't.

Ok, and you know the examiner was a 20-something how?  Were you there?  Did the examiner inform you he was a 20-something?  Of course not. 

Also, my husband and I are both religious, and he *told them that*.Thanks to this site, I know that probably flags him for deception.You can't freaking win with these people!!!!!

Being religious "flags one for deception"?  Really???  Which religion?  Jew?  Gentile? Muslim?  Your statement is utterly ridiculous.  Why?  Because DOD regulations specifically prohibit issues of race, religion, and political beliefs from being addressed during any DOD polygraph exam.  Furthermore, federal agencies prohibit any discussion of religious topics, either during pretest or posttest. 

Because of his convictions, he won't get on this site, or read anything I've downloaded, or let me try to coach him in any way.I even tried to slip in some suggestions, and he gave me the "look" and changed the subject.

This statement is more comical than ridiculous.  If you're both religious, then why are you researching this but your husband is not???  Perhaps you're both of different religions, and his condemns him to eternal hell if he researches polygraph!!

And to answer your initial question, an independent review was already conducted by senior NSA polygraph supervisors.  If they did not concur, your husband would have been invited back for a retest.

Oh, and BTW, any idiot with a PhD can call himself "Doctor";  unless he is a medically-trained physician, he is not a doctor, just someone with a doctorate, like "Dr" Richardson.

1) He said his polygrapher was likely in his 20's.
2) This site compared the amount of training polygraphers received to that of barbers.
3) In one of the downloads, there was an excerpt from a polygraphy training manual that said something along the lines of, "If your subject claims that he won't lie due to religious beliefs, he's more likely to be hiding something." The manual said to flag that for likely deception. I couldn't make that one up; it really surprised me.
4) Finally, I said, "his convictions," not "his religion" prevents him from looking on this site.  He honestly wants to adhere to the guidelines they gave him as closely as possible---and they said, "Don't look at antipolygraphy sites." They certainly didn't say, "Make sure your wife doesn't either." I have a strong conviction that these tests aren't accurate, but he doesn't care--he wants to stick to the rules.  That's not religious, but it is a conviction.

Make more sense?

[quickfix]

No, it doesn't make more sense.  It just shows how gullible you are to believe everything you read on this site.  Keep in mind the vast majority or posters here are those who failed their poly for any number of reasons, INCLUDING being deceptive or attempting to pass by dishonest means (countermeasures).

Comparing polygraph training to barber training is a George Maschke-ism, someone who failed not one, but two polygraph exams with two different agencies, and attempted to use countermeasures (a fact he still continues to deny after 15+ years).  Again, keep in mind those who make this ridiculous analogy-people who failed their polygraph.

Finally, I don't know what download you refer to regarding so-called red flags for saying one is religious, but I can assure you that the Department of Defense does not tolerate the probing of religious beliefs as part of any polygraph test.

[Ex Member]

WifeOfAGoodGuy,

I suggest you wait for others to chime in. You will get nothing meaningful from the Eddy Haskell of polygraph operators.

[WifeOfAGoodGuy]

No, it doesn't make more sense.  It just shows how gullible you are to believe everything you read on this site.  Keep in mind the vast majority or posters here are those who failed their poly for any number of reasons, INCLUDING being deceptive or attempting to pass by dishonest means (countermeasures).

Comparing polygraph training to barber training is a George Maschke-ism, someone who failed not one, but two polygraph exams with two different agencies, and attempted to use countermeasures (a fact he still continues to deny after 15+ years).  Again, keep in mind those who make this ridiculous analogy-people who failed their polygraph.

Finally, I don't know what download you refer to regarding so-called red flags for saying one is religious, but I can assure you that the Department of Defense does not tolerate the probing of religious beliefs as part of any polygraph test.

Now this is getting interesting, but for an entirely different reason than you might suspect. 

You just called me "gullible" and assumed I believed everything I read on here without qualification.  Allow me to give you some more information:

I had no reservations at all about him taking the polygraph exam to begin with.  I googled "NSA polygraph" to see what he needed to do to prepare. (For example, should he drink coffee? Take his meds?  How would sleep affect the results?  Should I pack him a Unisom? Those types of things.) One of the first links that came up was this one:

https://antipolygraph.org/forum/index.php?topic=4208.msg32095#msg32095

I read this, then read the links and downloads that accompanied it, and told my husband, "I know you can't read antipolygraph materials, but from what I've read, there's no way to know if these guys are telling the truth, or if they're upset because they failed, and seeking retaliation. Just go be honest, and I'm sure you'll do fine."

Then, when he failed his first polygraph, I was shocked that it seemed to follow the *exact* script that these links described.  He only gave me about 50% of his experience, compared to the information in the posts, and when I probed deeper, he told me he couldn't tell me more. 

He's an excellent secret-keeper.

Since my husband is a Christian, he came home and actually spent time in prayer over whatever the "issue" was that they focused on, to see if he had hidden sin in his life, or sins that he'd forgotten about, and hadn't made restitution over. 

THAT'S when I started researching more. 

Then, after his second polygraph, they didn't tell him if he passed or not.  He's saddened by this, to say the least, and wondering if he really did do something wrong that he hasn't remembered. 

Now, you read completely inaccurate information into my first post.  When I clarified, you didn't apologize for *your* inaccurate assumptions, but instead, called me gullible.

I am neither.  However, you're wrong in 2 out of 2 assumptions. You could have been respectful, and asked for more information, or at least been cordial in your corrections.  Instead, you weren't just wrong, you were *wildly* wrong.

Since you're apparently a polygrapher, my confidence in polygraph testing is sinking quickly.

My confidence in my husband remains unshaken.  If the NSA polygraphers truly don't see that he's doing the best he can to be forthright, then I'm sorry to say, it will be their loss.    He will find meaningful work elsewhere.  You, however, have shown me that a certified polygrapher's ability to accurately read people is subjective, and may be completely inaccurate. That saddens me. 

[WifeOfAGoodGuy]

However, thank you for letting me know that the NSA has supervisors who review the polygraph tests.  I do appreciate that.