Marine Forced To Lie.....

[MarineToCop]

Hello everyone, after reading through most of this website I thought I should post about my situation.  To start off I always wanted to become a cop since I was a kid. Unfortunately I got a little sidetracked during my high school days.  It started when my father died freshmen year, after a long string of events following his death my mother committed me to a psychiatric hospital for depression because she thought there was a possibility I was going to commit suicide. I was released from the hospital 5 days later. I believe the doctors diagnosed me with ADD and "Imminent Explosive Disorder". I'm really not very familiar with the disorders but I am positive the diagnosis was BS. Even my mother would be willing to write a statement saying she overacted committing me to hospital. After I got released from the hospital I no longer thought it was plausible for me to become a police officer so I dropped out of the police academy magnet program and left the LAPD explorer program I was attending in high school. Things continued to spiral down hill as I got involved with Marijuana. I probably used somewhere between 40-50 times throughout high school. Anyways, I graduated high school and decided to join the Marines. I was told by my recruiter not to admit to smoking marijuana more then 3 times. He also said I didn't have to say anything about my little hospital visit since I voluntarily went and it wasn't a court order, I know now this is untrue. I know what you are all thinking, I am defiantly not qualified to be a police officer and I should probably get a job at McDonalds. But this was all 8 years ago. I completed boot camp and was selected for the intelligence field. After completing a 4-year enlistment I moved to Counter-Intelligence and was assigned to a Human Exploitation/Interrogation team. My background investigation came up clean and I now possess a TS/SCI. I have obtained the rank of Gunnery Sgt./ E7 (Very hard to do in 8 years). Completed 3 tours to Iraq totaling over 2 years in country. I currently have 2 Purple Hearts, a Bronze Star for valor in combat and numerous other awards and accommodations. In summary I have lead a very successful military career. I just got out of the military to go back to school or try and give the LAPD a shot. I was once given a job offer by the DIA but I refused, I knew I couldn't pass a polygraph and didn't was to discredit my reputation. After reading over this website I would like nothing more then to make my dream of become a cop (detective) a reality. My plan is to go through the selection process and not mention the Psyc hospital and stick to the "I only smoked 3 times story" I put on my EPSQ (Now EQIP) security clearance application. I know smoking under 50 times isn't by itself disqualifying but I cant risk loosing my security clearance. I'm pretty confident they wont find any records of the Psyc. Hospital since it didn't come up during the 2 year investigation for SCI.  With a little luck I will successfully employ the countermeasures described on this site during the polygraph and just deny everything if I fail. It just seems so dishonest but I keep telling myself that Ill never regret it if get in and have a successful career. I am confident I am more qualified to become a cop then 95% of today's police force. Does anyone have any advise for me? I'm really just looking for some general guidance. Also does anyone know if the LAPD routinely administers polygraphs or is it just during the selection process?

Thanks for reading my long post.

[sternfanatick]

Once LAPD got the go-ahead to administer polys (in 2001) they've routinely DQ'd 50% of applicants that make it to backgrounds.  They will poly you, so be advised.  You will get plenty of pro-poly guys who lurk around these boards telling you that you're not fit to be a cop if you plan to be dishonest in your poly.  Personally, I refuse to judge anyone based on a internet forum post.  The truth is many people aren't 100% honest in their poly and they get hired; the machine just didn't pick up their bodily reactions.  Does that make them or the technique of the polygraph unfit? The real trouble you'll have is attempting to hide the paper trail of your hospitalization.  Friends, family members, co-workers, et.al. who know your history will be contacted during backgrounds, and someone might spill the beans.  

[MarineToCop]

Well if an investigator talks to any of my peers (Which has been done during my SSBI) they would never suspect me of ever having anything to do with a psychiatric hospital. On top of that the hospital is now closed, so it's unlikely to show up.  I have heard many people rant on and on about lying on a polygraph to become a cop. I know its wrong but I feel it can be justified by 20 years of loyal service to the city. To be honest I don't feel like anyone here is qualified to tell me differently. I have given more to this country then many of you can comprehend. All things considered I still feel it is unlikely I will actually have the opportunity to become a cop.  I have never employed counter-measures before and am skeptical to weather or not they will actually work. Does anyone know if the LAPD gives routine polygraphs during employment or are they only used during the selection process? I would probably rethink this if I knew I would have to continually live a lie throughout my whole career, and my job would always be at stake. I am open to all suggestions, and if you think this is a mistake for reason other then morality I would love to hear about it.

[Honesty006]

Dear Marine: First I would like to "Thank You" for serving our country. Our military has recruiting standards. Due to the difficulties of finding qualified military applicants you are told to lie of your drug use.  Your "lie" makes you eligible to serve in the military. You are told to continue to lie of your drug use for the remainder of your career(s) by your recruiter. Should your "lie" be detected the recruiter and military look bad. Your military position was granted based upon a lie. Your true drug use may have disqualified you for the position which you applied for correct?  If not, then why was the lie necessary and why were you told to continue to lie? Knowing the "integrity" which was once instilled upon our military men/women, we now know standards have been lowered to coinside with the changing times. The big question is, "Do I want to continue to live a lie to reach my goals?" The correct answer should be "NO." Just because you have used marijuana and visited a hospital does not mean you will never be an Officer. Showing you have overcome the obstacles in your life and justifying your behavior at the time is not necessarily a disqualifying factor. The majority of the population has used marijuana at one time in their life. Your quanity is a high number but truthful. What any agency will look at is the last time you used the marijuana and what the odds of you returning to drug use may be. An agency may say 50 is a lot and it has only been lets say 7 years. They may ask you to reapply in a few years to allow more time to pass. During the wait, stay in the security field and "keep clean." Continue to uphold your integrity and honor. I know stories just like yours. Military men have been told to lie of their drug use. They lie on the polygraph examination and are disqualifed due to the lie, not the actual drug use. So my suggestion is DO NOT LIE ON THE POLYGRAPH EXAMINATION. You have a good chance of being hired as you are with your prior drug use if that is all you have used and not used any since high school. Nationally 50% do fail polygraph examinations due to the little lies. They withold information from the examiner and fail. Once you are hired as an officer, there are laws and regulations whch keep you protected from polygraph examinations. Once hired, chances are you will never have another examination. (Research Employment Polygraph Protection Act online) Take a look at the California Peace Officer Standards and Training Manual online. Look at the table of contents and take a look at what the agencies look for and at. I think you are judging yourself to hard and wanting to lie when it may not be necessary. Apply for more than one agency at a time. The process can take more than 6 months to get through. Good luck to you and I hope this information helps you on the way to becoming a POLICE OFFICER. The truth will set you free.  

[DippityShurff]

Marine,

Good to see you are more qualified than almost 100% of those of us currently in the field.  I wish you well, and the best of luck.

[alterego1]

Do people not know how to divide their thoughts into paragraphs anymore?  Reading this shit gives me a headache.

[polysuck]

Gunny,
Good luck brother...regardless of what this site says, tell the truth and do NOT try countermeasures....do NOT.  I was accused yesterday of trying them, so today is my first day researching CM's...to see WTF they were talking about.

[dimas]

MarineToCop,

I am not sure whether or not you are even going to read this as the post is dated in October, however, I will reply anyway and perhaps some other LE hopefuls will read it.

First, off I do not mean to be a spelling or word usage Nazi, however since you felt that you were more qualified than 95% of us doing this job then I have to point these things out.  The words are as follows  Advice NOT advise,  Losing NOT Loosing and finally Than NOT Then.  If in fact you do want to become a detective then you will need to work on this as any good defense attorney will rip apart your report and make you look like an idiot.  Also, there is this great thing called "Paragraphs", you may want to look into it.

Second, 40-50 times of use is quite a bit.  It really is, unless of course you mean you puffed 40-50 times.  But getting high 40-50 times means that over the course of high school you were getting high every 2-3 weeks.  Not recreational, not experimental, just bad over all.  If you lived LA when this happened it is even worse.  Your credibility as a police officer on the stand may take a hit if one of the guys you had to arrest is one of the guys who saw you getting high every weekend.  

Third, on the plus side I really do not think that you have to disclose the psych history.  I believe that since you were a juvenile that may be confidential and pretty much none of their business.  This does vary from state to state, but in most I have worked it holds true.  Also, if I am not mistaken you are also protected federally by the Americans with Disabilities Act, because mental health is classified as a disability.  HIPPA also would prevent the police from accessing your prior mental health records without a warrant, which a judge would definitely not grant a background investigator.  

Finally, if in fact you were so successful in the military, then perhaps you should have just stayed in.  Honestly, why risk it?  Law Enforcement is NOT like it is in the movies.  Lots of paperwork, law suits, complaints, crappy management, low morale, overworked DA's that ALWAYS drop cases and then you arrest the slime bag all over again as he laughs at you knowing he'll get a slap on the wrist.  Don't get me wrong it is a great job, but in the decade I have worked in it, it has changed drastically for the worse.  I have seen many people who led great careers in the military come to LE and suck at it and regret having left in the first place.

Either way, good luck with whatever choice you make or made.

[LieBabyCryBaby]

 

Finally, if in fact you were so successful in the military, then perhaps you should have just stayed in.  Honestly, why risk it?  Law Enforcement is NOT like it is in the movies.  Lots of paperwork, law suits, complaints, crappy management, low morale, overworked DA's that ALWAYS drop cases and then you arrest the slime bag all over again as he laughs at you knowing he'll get a slap on the wrist.  Don't get me wrong it is a great job, but in the decade I have worked in it, it has changed drastically for the worse.  I have seen many people who led great careers in the military come to LE and suck at it and regret having left in the first place.

Excellent advice, Dimas. You summed up law enforcement careers very well.

[polysuck]

Gunny, one more recommendation from a former Career Counselor...STAY IN...yes, the HET is deploying more than anyone, but go WO program or something....take it from me, active duty is not a bad gig, especially for someone making rank as fast as you.

[TANSTAAFL7]

Why in gods name do you feel you have to use "countermeasures" (i.e. cheat!) to pass this test? Gunny, with a BRONZE STAR they'd have to be crazy NOT to hire you! And you were HET, not some pog MOS! I'm a boot compared to you Gunny, but I've done my three tours in the ranks too, in the infantry (C 1/5, 1st Mardiv) and now I'm out after 4 years with my Honorable. I've already taken 2 Polys and I'm TELLING you, theres NO substitute for just TELLING THE TRUTH! Seriously, the poly has its negatives just like everything else, but if you go there with the intent to lie you WON'T pass! Just tell the truth! ANd what kind of sick jerk would disqualify a vet with a Bronze Star for being devastated by your dad's death when you were a kid? Hope I see you at the academy!

God Bless Gunny!

P.S. - You didn't know a Sgt. Edmonds by chance did you Gunny?

[DippityShurff]

While I wish you well in your quest, I personally have had zero cases in which someone was in a psych hospital (undisclosed) and I didn't find out.  Of course, that does not include the ones who slid under the RADAR LOL.  Be careful but follow your conscience.

Dip

[MarineToCop]

Just too randomly follow up, I ended up going the officer route and am now a commissioned Marine HUMINT Officer. Using PAST marijuana use as a means of professional screening is utter bullshit, especially considering the current drug climate in medical marijuana states and America in general.

I also believe current polygraphists are disgracing themselves and are a disgrace to this country. They knowingly masquerade their inadequate personal opinion as a science and have ended the careers of countless better Americans. I'm sure they enjoy the respect, confidence, and sense of patriotism they receive from their joke of a profession. I hope they realize it is completely undeserved.

Sincerely,

A Real American Hero

[MarineToCop]

MarineToCop,

First, off I do not mean to be a spelling or word usage Nazi, however since you felt that you were more qualified than 95% of us doing this job then I have to point these things out.  The words are as follows  Advice NOT advise,  Losing NOT Loosing and finally Than NOT Then.  If in fact you do want to become a detective then you will need to work on this as any good defense attorney will rip apart your report and make you look like an idiot.  Also, there is this great thing called "Paragraphs", you may want to look into it.

That you very much for taking the time to obnoxiously call out and correct my minor grammar mistakes. Clearly, the intent behind this forum was to establish a community of Spelling Bee Champions and not to address the fact that a small group of unqualified old white men,  The American Polygraph Association, hold the keys to some of our country's highest offices.

And just so you know, while you were in college writing hundreds of essay's on the Harry Potter series, I was commanding a fire team of Marines in a foreign war.

Your ignorant elitist opinion is not welcome in my post.

[stefano]

while you were in college writing hundreds of essay's on the Harry Potter series, I was commanding a fire team of Marines in a foreign war.

Awesome response. Gotta love them Marines--they are the masters of no B.S. God Bless you fella--oorah!