employing countermeasures

[Thomas_Delacy]

  Ok from, what I have studied and known the correct way to employ a counter measure is during a control question. Preferably the tongue biting technique.  
 
My question is. YOU HAVE to LIE IN A CONTROL QUESTION?
 
2nd Question. Is tongue biting more effective than mental' countermeasures??
 
3rd question. MENTAL COUNTERMEASURES ARE USED DURING RELATIVE QUESTIONS? Of course with controlled breathing.  Also, can they be mixed with tounge biting technique?
 
 Whoever has gone through and passed polygraph's using these methods' please post here; and fulfill me with any information imp missing. My poly is coming in two week's. And actually imp quite excited to take it and see if I can employ these countermeasures efficiently.!  

[underlyingtruth]

Have you read TLBTD?

The CQs are by nature questions to which you lie.  
"Have you ever committed a crime?"  Jaywalking is a crime, yet you are directed to say "No" to this question unless it is "serious."  What does serious mean?

I don't know how to answer your 2nd question, I think it is subjective.

I always mix tounge biting with controlled breathing AND sphinctor tension.

Is there a need to use CMs on RQs if you're not lying?  I never have and I forgot what TLBTD says about it... but I'll look.

I have passed many polygraphs using CMs.
  

[Mr. Mystery]

 
3rd question. MENTAL COUNTERMEASURES ARE USED DURING RELATIVE (sic) QUESTIONS? 3rd question.  Of course with controlled breathing.  Also, can they be mixed with tounge biting technique?  

Read the TBTLD again.  Why in god's name would you want to increase your reaction to a relevant question?

[Thomas_Delacy]

  alright, i understand that' you can't deploy CM's during a revelant question.. but as far is controlled breathing.. is there any thing different in revelvant questions? What if one of the revelant questions is something i don't wanna answer truthfully? FOr example experimenting with pot..? do i employ a different breathing patternn. or do i TRY MY BEST to make reactions in controlled questions!
 

[underlyingtruth]

That's what I was getting at!  I figured you were hinting that you didn't want to be completely honest on a RQ.  When you asked about using CMs on RQ, I assumed you were asking about ways to lower your reaction to a RQ. It is your reaction  as it relates to the CQs that determines if you pass or fail.  So, you need your CQ reaction to be slightly greater than your RQ reactions.  
Lowering your reaction to RQs? It's nearly, if not, impossible to not think about something when it is mentioned.  Don't think about your mother!  See, you just did.  You could try thinking about "nothing" when asked a RQ, but I'm not sure how effective that will be.  I'm sure there are many differing opinions regarding this topic.
I've always been successful using CMs, maybe I'm just lucky.  Never-the-less, I'm going to keep doing what I do everytime until it doesn't work anymore.
Perhaps some of the senior users would like to comment...

[alterego1]

That's what I was getting at!  I figured you were hinting that you didn't want to be completely honest on a RQ.  When you asked about using CMs on RQ, I assumed you were asking about ways to lower your reaction to a RQ. It is your reaction  as it relates to the CQs that determines if you pass or fail.  So, you need your CQ reaction to be slightly greater than your RQ reactions.  
Lowering your reaction to RQs? It's nearly, if not, impossible to not think about something when it is mentioned.  Don't think about your mother!  See, you just did.  You could try thinking about "nothing" when asked a RQ, but I'm not sure how effective that will be.  I'm sure there are many differing opinions regarding this topic.
I've always been successful using CMs, maybe I'm just lucky.  Never-the-less, I'm going to keep doing what I do everytime until it doesn't work anymore.
Perhaps some of the senior users would like to comment...

Underlyingtruth.....you always seem to have some good info and advice, but I am curious.  Why do you take so many polygraphs if you have had so much success in employing countermeasures and passing them all?

Also, if you are going to lie on one of the RQs, then is it best to lie on ALL of the CQs??  Or just lie on maybe one or two of them?  I figure if one lies on ALL of the CQs, then it will look pretty suspicious that the person is using countermeasures.

[underlyingtruth]

My situation requires me to take 1-2 polygraphs a year. The details would be "off-topic," but I'll be happy to explain further if you'll send me a private message.  

All CQs require you to tell a lie; that's part of trickery that polygraphers use - they convince you to lie to the question and will badger you until you do (of course, I think YOU may already know that). I use CMs on ALL the CQs whether I'm being completely honest on the RQs or not. I've never been accused of using CMs.

Don't you understand that being completely honest doesn't work?!  The times that I decided to be completely honest and spent lots of time with the polygrapher trying to justify my "lies" to the CQs were the times that I failed.  That's what tee'd me off!  The more honest I was, the more I failed!

[alterego1]

I always mix tounge biting with controlled breathing AND sphinctor tension.


 

What have you found to work well for "controlled breathing?"  Do you do the "pause" in your breathing right after you say yes or no, as described in TLBTLD?

[underlyingtruth]

I count to help maintain a constant breathing pattern.  On RQs, I pause (naturally) after answering "yes" or "no," finish the exhalation of my remaining breath, and return to the normal pattern (counting).  When employing CMs, I add a "catch-breath" after answering and cycle the pattern one less count (1,2,3 as opposed to 1,2,3,4), breath deeper/more shallow, than usual, tighten my sphincter, bite my tongue slightly, and think "OMG, I'm going to get caught using CMs."  Yes, I do use all of those CMs at once.

[cesium_133]

Underlying, if you can use them all at once, you're a wiser (and braver) man than I.  TLBTLD tends to suggest using 1 or at most 2 CM's, but I guess if you can monkey about more than that with your BFB, more power to you.

IMHO, I would use the mental CM's first.  While it can't be shown that a polygrapher can accurately diagnose the butt-clench CM, they might try to accuse you if presented with a repetitive sudden or gradual spike.  I caution on this because controlling your anal sphincter is a voluntary act in the poly setting, unlike after you went to the bathroom when sick or constipated.  Then, after you're done, the sphincter will often want to contract involuntarily and inconsistently in response to the physical discomfort it just experienced (sorry if this is gross, folks, but I'm being strictly clinical).

That brings me to the breathing CM.  I guess I am in a minority here, but I don't agree with the use of respiratory CM's on a general basis, or throughout a test.  In the interrogation setting, respiration is the one thing that is 100% voluntary, even more so than the sphincter.  When you breathe and think about it, as you would in a ploygraph, er, polygraph, you choose to breathe x amount in and y amount out (amplitude) on the r_t and r_d channels with varying, visible frequency.  This is the -one- thing the interrogator might (coin-flip chance) look at and say, "Why are you breathing Beethoven's 5th?  I see a pattern."  Unless you can come up with a very convoluted pattern, or breathe totally randomly, I foresee a risk in this CM.  You might try it on one CQ, but as your first line of defense, I would respectfully suggest mental CM's.

Why?  Poly-Man can't out you on a mental CM.  I don't believe polygraphers can find CM's with any more accuracy than George or Eos does, but supposing you just get too bloody involved with the breathing.  Your pattern is too good.  You present the conman with one more excuse to fail you.  If they've read TLBTLD, remember, they know the breathing patterns, too.

Myself, I have tested my physiological reactions to mental arithmetic, mental math (a difference exists), exciting/racy/provocative thoughts, and essentially trying to tense myself from the inside.  On the last, imagine trying to contract an adductor muscle without moving.  Start with the pit of your stomach and focus on different muscles, especially in the arms and legs.  "Feel" the tension and nervousness.  It created a slow-burn rise in my GSR, good for alternating with mental arithmetic (counting back by sevens), math (trying to resolve the quadratic formula from terms of 0 to terms of x... wonderful CM), and thinking of jumping off a cliff.

Hope all this helps some...

[underlyingtruth]

Underlying, if you can use them all at once, you're a wiser (and braver) man than I.  TLBTLD tends to suggest using 1 or at most 2 CM's, but I guess if you can monkey about more than that with your BFB, more power to you.

Well, I'm not going to argue with you because I agree.  
The first time I ever used CMs, I hadn't fully read the TLBTLD and just hit the highlights.  I knew just enough to be dangerous.  I used all of those CMs I listed above and I was told that my chart was "very truthful."  Since then, I've thought about only using 1 or 2 CMs because I was afraid of spiking the CQs too much. But, I changed my mind and did the same thing I did before.  Ever since, I've done the same thing every time and haven't had a problem or been accused of using CMs.  So, until I fail or get accused of using CMs, I'm not going to change anything.  

[alterego1]

Definitely some great dialogue going on here.  I'd be curious to see what George has to say about all of this.  I'm thinking it might be best just to altogether avoid trying to breath in a particular pattern or rhythm, and instead just concentrate on doing the pause (supression) after answering "yes" or "no".  Combine this with the mental countermeasures as described earlier, and I would think this would suffice.

[EosJupiter]

Alterego1,

I for one will never use a physical type countermeasure. Though workable on a novice polygrapher, with the exception if I notice that there is no piezio-electric pads or sensors in the chair, an experieced one is not so easily blinded.  I will always go with the Mental countermeasures. The breathing and sphincter types are not worth the risk. Like anything that works, the less moving parts the better. ANd again they can't read your mind, especially since you know there game plan and can read the signals and questions. I can't speak for George, nor would I, anyone I would ever train to use countermeasures would use the mental ones. Its this fact that is why the Feds are trying to use the new FMRI and those technologies, as we can beat them. Brains beat pseudo-science everytime.

Regards ...

[Thomas_Delacy]

Ok, great thx for the help and comments.. afta further researchh of counter measures i concluded that i will use biting toung technique on the Control questions and control my breathing in variations. After a revelant question i will mantain my breating to normal rate.                                       What im confused about  is   mental counter measures.... such as multiplyin ur numbas in ur head..  that is used during a RQ or CQ... I dont understand how it helps in a CQ by raising ur response.... rather i see it in RQ as bypassing a question that you are "lying" such as not admitting to and keeping your mind off the subject.. Xplainn tat? sorry for the typing spelling hehehe im typing on a laptop which is really iritating cause i cant type well on it! lol  BTW.. my poly is in a week i will LET EVERYone know the results of my 2nd poly. MY first 1 i passed by being honest  but they had sensed alot of "high responses in few questions , which really wasnt high enuf to fail me

[cesium_133]

What I'm confused about is mental countermeasures... such as multiplying your numbers in your head...  that is used during an RQ or CQ... I don't understand how it helps in a CQ by raising your response... rather, I see it in RQ as bypassing a question that you are "lying" [about]... and keeping your mind off the subject...

(Edited for syntax)

You never want to raise your level of response on a relevant.  Never, ever.  By saying that you "bypass" a question, you're saying that the machine can tell that the self-produced spike comes from your physiology, not from a lie.  It cannot do that.  If it could, it would start bleeping "Countermeasure Alert!".  All you'd be doing would be to change the source of the biofeedback, not the reading, and that's what important.  You want the RQ readings to be as muted as possible, whether you're lying or truthful.

The reason you use CM's on CQ's is precisely to get peaking results.  Why?  The CQ's are the independent/dependent hybrid variable upon which your test is scored.  That means the results of the test depend on how much the response BFB of the independent CQ's tallies above or below the RQ's.  If the response is higher, you pass; if not, you fail; if they're equal, it's inconclusive.

However, in a sick form of symbiosis, the efficacy of the results of the CQ's themselves depends somewhat on how well you can suppress RQ responses, or at least not aggravate them, the latter of which should be your goal.  In other words, if you react more on RQ's, you're going to need higher and higher spikes on the CQ's to compensate and make the CQ's outdo the RQ's.

It's kind of funny how this relationship renders the RQ's independent of both meaningful variables (pass/fail overall and CQ response adequacy relative to RQ's).  RQ responses thus, to my mind, take a logical 3rd place even as the interrogator tells you how important they are.  Everyone following me here?  Good  You thus are left with the RQ's in this form of poly test almost being irrelevant    Almost.

Remember, the polyman doesn't care per se about the CQ's.  He's not worried whether you've lied, stolen, committed adultery, broken the Sabbath, or driven drunk.  He only cares about trying to get you to lie to some or all of the CQ's so that, in his mind, he can compare the CQ lies to the RQ baseline.  That's what he does, period.  Thus, spike those CQ's.  Do what you must, be it lying or a form of CM.  It'll outshine the RQ reading, and you'll have a positive result.

Expansion hereon welcome...