PD applicant has a question...

[Ray]

Drew and Marty,

You both failed to answer my original question.  Let me repeat it.  

We all know the anti-poly crowd questions examiner integrity based on the procedures of an examination.  With this in mind, is it fair that we should question George's integrity when he suggests that an applicant should "not volunteer" (lie by omission) specific information in the course of one's law enforcement application.  A simple yes or no will do.

[I-SMELL-BS-2]

Drew and Marty,

You both failed to answer my original question.  Let me repeat it.  

We all know the anti-poly crowd questions examiner integrity based on the procedures of an examination.  With this in mind, is it fair that we should question George's integrity when he suggests that an applicant should "not volunteer" (lie by omission) specific information in the course of one's law enforcement application.  A simple yes or no will do.

George has no integrity.  He is a liar.  And his one claim to fame is that he encourages other to be liars also.  He is also one of the biggest crybabies around.  Those who have been caught in their lies rally round him and together they form the howl-we-liars chorus of fools.

[Marty]

Drew and Marty,

You both failed to answer my original question.  Let me repeat it.  

We all know the anti-poly crowd questions examiner integrity based on the procedures of an examination.  With this in mind, is it fair that we should question George's integrity when he suggests that an applicant should "not volunteer" (lie by omission) specific information in the course of one's law enforcement application.  A simple yes or no will do.

In the very specific context George answered, I would say no. However, if I agreed with your assessment, that he was suggesting a lie  by omission of specific information asked I would have said yes.

-Marty

[I-SMELL-BS-2]

In the very specific context George answered, I would say no. However, if I agreed with your assessment, that he was suggesting a lie  by omission of specific information asked I would have said yes.

-Marty

Farty, he asked for a yes OR no, not a yes AND no.

[Marty]

Farty, he asked for a yes OR no, not a yes AND no.

ISBS,

You have a problem reading? The answer was no, but I went further and described the circumstances under which it would be yes. I did this because of the way the question was phrased.

Tell me ISBS. Are you as clueless as you seem? Please just answer yes or no.

-Marty

[I-SMELL-BS-2]

OK Farty, sounds like you are warmed up.  Now you and George give us a rendition of the howl-we-liars chorus.

[tito]

I hate to break the news to ya I-smell-BS-2,  but I personally know cops who have and still do use injectable steroids, ephedrine,clenbuterol, GHB, excessive amounts of alcohol(bordering on alcoholism)Growth Hormone, Injectable vitamins, and so on. I have even heard of some cops using cocaine, speed, pot, and even worse, sleeping with prostitutes....etc.I don't condone any of it. If you're a police officer, you should'nt be using drugs period, or getting drunk in public, as a matter of fact you should'nt be addicted to anything except a healthy vigorous life style.

The bottom line is, these cops who do this are fantastic police officers. It's just unfortunate they have to participate in such unhealthy lifestyles.

George is right, the polygraph is a joke. It eliminates tons of people who are telling the truth. The only reason for the polygraph is to intimidate you into disclosing IRRELEVANT confidential info that you would never tell another soul.

Please don't call people names I-smell-BS-2, it only shows that you're losing the arguement. In philosophy they call this an ADD-HOMONYM. We're all adults here, or at least some of us are.

Keep up the good work George, at least you treat people with respect and don't call people childish names like LIAR or Farty.

[I-SMELL-BS-2]

You are right titty.  Georgie is a real sweeheart.  Why don't you join him and Farty in a trio and give us another song, here we go....howl-we-liars, howl-we-liars, howl-we-liars, howl-we-liars, howl-weeee-liars, oh how we lie and shoot the steroooooids, howl-we-liars...... Very good!  But titty, you are a little flat - perhaps a push up bra.......

[stud]

You are right titty.  Georgie is a real sweeheart.  Why don't you join him and Farty in a trio and give us another song, here we go....howl-we-liars, howl-we-liars, howl-we-liars, howl-we-liars, howl-weeee-liars, oh how we lie and shoot the steroooooids, howl-we-liars...... Very good!  But titty, you are a little flat - perhaps a push up bra.......

If you're in law enforcement, I pitty the dept that has to put up with your pathetic excuse of a human being.

[I-SMELL-BS-2]

If you're in law enforcement, I pitty the dept that has to put up with your pathetic excuse of a human being.

Hey Dud, I PITY you too, you illiterate ignoramus.

[stud]

Hey Dud, I PITY you too, you illiterate ignoramus.

Talk about an illiterate ignoramus, you freaken moron, you can't even spell "dude" right. It's dude, not dud idiot. Look it up in the dictionary, or do you even own one dork. You are a dunce, and a disgrace to everyone on this web site. If you are in law enforcement, get out, you are a danger not only to yourself, but everyone around you.

P.S. I apologize to everyone else on this web site, for the immature level I have descended to regarding this member. I have had enough of this criticizing bafoon.

Good by

[I-SMELL-BS-2]

Talk about an illiterate ignoramus, you freaken moron, you can't even spell "dude" right. It's dude, not dud idiot. Look it up in the dictionary, or do you even own one dork. You are a dunce, and a disgrace to everyone on this web site. If you are in law enforcement, get out, you are a danger not only to yourself, but everyone around you.

P.S. I apologize to everyone else on this web site, for the immature level I have descended to regarding this member. I have had enough of this criticizing bafoon.

Good by

I said DUD, rhymes with STUD, and that is exactly what I meant - you simply show your abysmal profound ignorance with every post.  DUD - of little or no worth, one that is ineffectual, failure, misfit..... a perfect description of you you fucking idiot.

[Administrator]

To All,

Please be aware of AntiPolygraph.org's new posting policy. All are requested to abide by it.

[Drew Richardson]

Ray,

I am quite happy to discuss examinee deception, what it is and what it is not, and the propriety (or lack thereof) of any recommendations for it, but with regard to that or any other commentary I make on this board, I do it according to my own dictates and not those of others.  If you are interested in such dialogue (and I do believe there are several things/issues to discuss which have not previously been addressed on this message board), please read or reread the last paragraph of my last post and respond accordingly.  That post in its entirety:

Ray,
 
You write in part:
 

...We all know George questions the integrity of  polygraph examiners....

 
If the issue is deception (versus generalized integrity), the issue is well beyond George's personal belief. Several years ago now (how time flies when you're having fun), while part of an exchange with a polygraph examiner, I offered the following thoughts on this message board regarding deception on the part of a polygraph examiner who conducts probable lie control question tests.  I believe those considerations to be true today as I did then.
 

Examiner:  
 
You say in part:  
 
"...Yes, an examiner lies during the conduct of an interview.  Every investigator I have ever known or heard of, from law enforcement to insurance to private lies during the interview process.  The United States Supreme Court sanctioned this type of activity decades ago.  This is an appropriate and accepted aspect of law enforcement.  Its not like its any secret, I fail to understand why this is such a significant issue here..."  
 
     You are to be congratulated for your candor and thanked for furthering these on-going discussions.  For the present, without much elaboration (I plan to start a new thread regarding polygraph "examiner" deception), I would like to simply characterize that which you describe as "...examiner lies during the conduct of an interview..." and list certain of those deceptions.  Deceptions for the average examiner would include (but not necessarily be limited to) intentional oversimplification, confuscation, misrepresentation, misstatement, exaggeration, and known false statement.  Amongst the areas and activities that such deceptions will occur within a given polygraph exam and on a continual basis are the following:  
 
(1)      A discussion of the autonomic nervous system, its anatomy and physiology, its role in the conduct of a polygraph examination, and the examiner's background as it supports his pontifications regarding said subjects.  In general, an examiner has no or little educational background that would qualify him to lead such a discussion and his discussion contains the likely error that gross oversimplification often leads to.  
 
(2)      The discussion, conduct of, and post-test explanations of the "stim" test, more recently referred to as an "acquaintance" test.  
 
 
(3)      Examiner representations about the function of irrelevant questions in a control question test (CQT) polygraph exam.  
 
(4)      Examiner representations about the function of control questions and their relationship to relevant questions in a CQT exam.  
 
 
(5)      Examiner representations about any recognized validity of the CQT (or other exam formats) in a screening application and about what conclusions can reasonably be drawn from the exam at hand, i.e. the one principally of concern to the examinee.  
 
(6)      A host of misrepresentations that are made as "themes" and spun to examinees during a post-test interrogation.  
 
 
(7)      The notion that polygraphy merits consideration as a scientific discipline, forensic psychophysiology or other...  
 
This listing is not offered as complete (nor in any way are the surrounding thoughts fully developed) but merely as a starting point for the following commentary and recommendation.   You have stated that court opinions have been written which sanction the use of deception on the part of law enforcement officers.  Agreed.  I would suggest for your consideration the following points:  
 
(1)      The deceptions cited in such decisions are generally isolated to specific actions/conversations occurring within specific investigations, not pandemic and not necessary to the day-to-day general and routine practices of law enforcement officers.  
 
(2)      The decisions you might cite clearly refer to law enforcement officers.  On what basis would you extend this "license to lie" to civilian polygraph examiners conducting polygraph exams related to purely administrative, commercial, or domestic subjects or even to polygraphers hired by the accused in a criminal matter?  
...

 
You raise the issue of examinee deception and perhaps allude to the ethics of countermeasure use.  I would be happy to discuss those issues with you if you will first address point by point the issues I raise about examiner deception in the aforementioned quote.  I maintain that examiner deception is first (occurs in the pretest before an examinee is likely to be deceptive), occurs most frequently (each and every time a probable lie control question test is administered independent of whether an examinee is deceptive), is not trivial but quite substantive (the test outcome depends upon it), and lastly but surely is quite comical (requires widespread public ignorance and universal bluff to carry out--perhaps the most important function of this site is not to provide a venue for complaint but to diminish such ignorance.)  

[Fair Chance]

Dear Drew,

Emotional outbursts aside,  this website is by far the most complete public source of total polygraph information both PRO and CON.

The reader has enough information to make their own opinions based upon many scientific articles and spirited discussions.

Many postings are more concerned with examinees who have complete ignorance of the subject.  They assumed it was 100% accurate and somehow disagree with its findings.

After now being exposed to many of the inner workings of government, I cannot dispute that the government has an almost obsessive-compulsive desire for the polygraph to be valid.  The polygraph does provide a secretive wall to hide behind and releases individuals from liability should a security breach occur.

Regards.