LAPD Poly

[bushido71]

I have been reading the posts here with great interest as I am currently in the middle of the LAPD selection process. From what I can gather, most candidates seem to get disqualified through the background and subsequent polygraph phases.

Although I think it's easy for someone to get on a soapbox and say they were cheated, I personally think the polygraph has as much scientific credibility as drilling a hole in your head to let the demons out. Unfortunately, I'm a pawn in the process and must play by the rules.

I have just begun the BI phase. I actually underwent the process 8 years ago and was DQ'd on some credit issues. Back then, there was no polygraph step. I have since cleaned up the credit issues and was granted an appeal to re-enter the selection process.

My biggest concern is getting DQ'd because of someone's erroneous interpretation of random physiological responses during the poly. I have seen very differing opinions on the use of so-called countermeasures. My personal feeling is that I could not execute any of them with any degree of proficiency and would only alert an examiner to signs of deceit. Plus, it seems that any irregularity in the test is often interpreted as a countermeasure.

I am interested in hearing anyone else's recent personal experiences with the LAPD poly. What were some of the questions asked in the interview? What kind of environment was the interview held in? Maybe the best strategy is to have as much knowledge walking in the door as possible. Any thoughts on this?

I have no intention of lying about anything, but I also don't want to get penalized because I stress out trying to decipher if taking pens home constitutes stealing from your employer.

[Marty]

I have no intention of lying about anything, but I also don't want to get penalized because I stress out trying to decipher if taking pens home constitutes stealing from your employer.

bushido71,

You are currently an uninformed examinee to be.  If you read TLBTLD or other "sting" books this could change and you may well be more liklely to fail a poly if you then choose not to use countermeasures. If you are determined not to use countermeasures under any condition I suggest you consider not reading TLBTLD.

-Marty

[Kona]

Bushido,

I totally agree with Marty.  You are uninformed, and need to educate yourself on the entire process.  You must read TLBTLD, and Doug Williams' manual on "The Sting" if you want to be assured of passing this stupid test.  

I took my first polygraph with Police Dept X a year ago, and I passed it telling the truth, with no countermeasures.  I took another polygraph a couple of months ago with Police Dept Y, and had some "problems" with the drug questions.  Again, I didn't use any countermeasures (I didn't even know what they were) but the Detective did everything but accuse me of using countermeasures, and actually checked the insides of my shoes!  Because the Detective "liked" me, and he thought I would be an asset to the Dept, he allowed me the "rare chance" of retesting a week later.   That convinced me that this polygraph nonsense was just that.  I read this website, and Doug Williams manual, and retested a week later.  I used Doug's countermeasures this time, and I passed without any problems.  

It's your decision, but I think you're crazy if you step foot in the LAPD polygraph office without reading everything you can about this crackpot science, and employing countermeasures to assure that you pass.

Good luck to you,
Kona  

[bushido71]

Just so I'm clear, you are suggesting that it would be in my best interest to use these countermeasures as outlined both on this site and in Doug's book?

My only concern is that my execution would be flawed and therefore obvious to any examiner.

[Kona]

Bushido,

The information on this website is great, particularly TLBTLD.  However, in my personal opinion Doug's manual is written more in layman's terms, and easier to apply to the actual polygraph experience.  He really takes you step by step through the process and explains how to manipulate the pneumo and cardio reactions to a T.  He also does a great job explaining the differences between control, relevant, irrelevant, and shock type questions, and how to recognize them.  

As for your flawed execution, even Doug says that you must practice your breathing and cardio responses before your big day.  I practiced my breathing and cardio responses to tape recorded questions that I made up myself.  I did this for about two hours the day before, and for about an hour the morning of my polygraph.  I assure you that I didn't perform perfectly, but I did a good enough job to pass the polygraph, and the Detective had no idea he had been stung.  

Your alternative is going into the exam like the honest guy that you are, not using any countermeasures, and  hoping that everything comes out ok.  Ultimately, the choice will be yours to make.  

Best wishes,
Kona

[George W. Maschke]

bushido71,

Be sure to see the LAPD-related accounts on the Personal Statements page.

In addition, you can use the search feature of this message board to review the numerous past discussions of the LAPD's pre-employment polygraph process.

[bushido71]

George,

I have a question about the use of CMs on "control questions." I understand the principle of eliciting a stronger response to the controls rather than the relevant. But what should your reaction be when the same question is qualified and asked again?

For example, if an examiner asks "have you ever lied to someone you love,"  i answer yes and show a strong response. then i give him a specific instance where i lied to my mom about where i was on friday night back in junior high school. so he asks "other than what you have told me, have you ever lied..." do i answer "no" or "yes" and still try to elicit a strong response? if so, doesn't that tip off the examiner since it would seem odd to have a strong response to the same question asked twice?

[Poly-Cop]

George,

I have a question about the use of CMs on "control questions." I understand the principle of eliciting a stronger response to the controls rather than the relevant. But what should your reaction be when the same question is qualified and asked again?

For example, if an examiner asks "have you ever lied to someone you love,"  i answer yes and show a strong response. then i give him a specific instance where i lied to my mom about where i was on friday night back in junior high school. so he asks "other than what you have told me, have you ever lied..." do i answer "no" or "yes" and still try to elicit a strong response? if so, doesn't that tip off the examiner since it would seem odd to have a strong response to the same question asked twice?

These poor schmucks are sooo lost...  You're just confusing 'em George, that's all you are doing....

PolyCop

[Mr. Truth]

Not to worry, though. When you, as a polygrapher, are out of work once enough people realize what a sham the process is, we'll all pause a moment to cry a little tear for you.

[Drew Richardson]

Polycop,

Although Bushido71 is either confused or simply represents one more pro-poly disinformation post (I think less likely to be true in this case), your ill-directed jab at George does little to alleviate the confusion you correctly point out (surprise surprise).  Because the fraud you perpetrate with a CQT examination requires ignorance on the part of an examinee, I suppose we can expect little more from you than the meaningless post you offer.

Bushido71,

You write:

George,

I have a question about the use of CMs on "control questions." I understand the principle of eliciting a stronger response to the controls rather than the relevant. But what should your reaction be when the same question is qualified and asked again?

For example, if an examiner asks "have you ever lied to someone you love,"  i answer yes and show a strong response. then i give him a specific instance where i lied to my mom about where i was on friday night back in junior high school. so he asks "other than what you have told me, have you ever lied..." do i answer "no" or "yes" and still try to elicit a strong response? if so, doesn't that tip off the examiner since it would seem odd to have a strong response to the same question asked twice?

Although you are correct in stating that countermeasures involve (either through physical or mental means) producing chart responses to control questions and you have correctly identified a control question (Have you ever lied to someone you love?), you have confused how the qualification prefix is used in administering the exam.  Using your example, If in the pretest phase of the examination (before the test and before any polygraph components are attached to you), if you were to indicate to your examiner in response to the question "Have you ever lied to someone you love?" that no you had never lied under such a circumstance, he/she (the polygraph examiner) would say something like "That's great...we all know how important it is to tell the truth to those we love..." and then (assuming you had not said anything to require modifying/limiting other control questions) go ahead and prepare to administer the test.  

Had you stated (as you suggest) that yes, you had lied to your mother on such and such an occasion, he/she (the polygraph examiner) would say something like "Well, that's understandable...we've all lied about small things in our life, but you've never really lied about anything really important have you?  We all know how important it is too tell the truth and again... you wouldn't really lie about anything important would you?"  At this point he is trying to get you to limit the admissions that you make (you have already admitted to one area that you might be concerned with) and to say that "No, that is all that I can remember...I do really try to be honest with people and especially with those I love...yada yada"  Assuming that you say something to that effect, he will then say "How would you answer...'Other than what you told me, have you ever lied to someone you love?'"  

Assuming you do not then recall another incident (now that you understand the nonsense that goes on here, there is really no reason to offer whether you do or not), that you answer "No" to his last qualified question, then he will go on with administering the test.  If you were to admit to another such failing, this pre-test cycle would repeat with him further highlighting the importance of honesty and trying to get you to limit your admissions with further "Other than what you have already told me...." type questions.  It is important that you understand that in the case of the control question you mention, that all of the above occurs before the exam (in-test phase with polygraph charts rolling so to speak) is administered.  It is not until you finish with ALL of your admissions of control question infraction and will tell him that you are being honest in answering "No" to his rephrased question of "Other than what you have told me, have you ever lied to someone that you love?" that the in-test phase (the actual administration of the polygraph examination with sensors attached and data being recorded) will take place.  When you have ended your admissions to this and any other control questions within a given test, then the "test" will begin.

[George W. Maschke]

George,

I have a question about the use of CMs on "control questions." I understand the principle of eliciting a stronger response to the controls rather than the relevant. But what should your reaction be when the same question is qualified and asked again?

For example, if an examiner asks "have you ever lied to someone you love,"  i answer yes and show a strong response. then i give him a specific instance where i lied to my mom about where i was on friday night back in junior high school. so he asks "other than what you have told me, have you ever lied..." do i answer "no" or "yes" and still try to elicit a strong response? if so, doesn't that tip off the examiner since it would seem odd to have a strong response to the same question asked twice?

bushido71,

As alluded to by Poly Cop, you have misunderstood the polygraph process (and rather badly so).

"Control" questions are reviewed during the pre-test phase of the polygraph examination, well before the polygraph sensors are attached to the subject. The examiner will expect minor admissions to many of the "control" questions, so when you admit to having lied to a loved one, the polygrapher will probably go into a spiel about how important honesty is to the agency, etc., etc., and try to maneuver you into making a denial (for example, by expressing the hope that you haven't told any other lies to loved ones). Once you answer "no," the question will then be re-worded to, "Other than what you told me, did you ever lie to a loved one?"

Only after all the questions to be asked have been reviewed will you be connected to the polygraph instrument for the "in-test" phase, and at this point, it is important to react more strongly to the "control" questions than to the relevant questions.

See Chapter 3 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector for a much fuller description of the polygraph process.

[PolyCop]

Polycop,

Although you are correct in stating that countermeasures involve (either through physical or mental means) producing chart responses to control questions and you have correctly identified a control question (Have you ever lied to someone you love?), you have confused how the qualification prefix is used in administering the exam.  Using your example, If in the pretest phase of the examination (before the test and before any polygraph components are attached to you), if you were to indicate to your examiner in response to the question "Have you ever lied to someone you love?" that no you had never lied under such a circumstance, he/she (the polygraph examiner) would say something like "That's great...we all know how important it is to tell the truth to those we love..." and then (assuming you had not said anything to require modifying/limiting other control questions) go ahead and prepare to administer the test.  

Had you stated (as you suggest) that yes, you had lied to your mother on such and such an occasion, he/she (the polygraph examiner) would say something like "Well, that's understandable...we've all lied about small things in our life, but you've never really lied about anything really important have you?  We all know how important it is too tell the truth and again... you wouldn't really lie about anything important would you?"  At this point he is trying to get you to limit the admissions that you make (you have already admitted to one area that you might be concerned with) and to say that "No, that is all that I can remember...I do really try to be honest with people and especially with those I love...yada yada"  Assuming that you say something to that effect, he will then say "How would you answer...'Other than what you told me, have you ever lied to someone you love?'"  

Assuming you do not then recall another incident (now that you understand the nonsense that goes on here, there is really no reason to offer whether you do or not), that you answer "No" to his last qualified question, then he will go on with administering the test.  If you were to admit to another such failing, this pre-test cycle would repeat with him further highlighting the importance of honesty and trying to get you to limit your admissions with further "Other than what you have already told me...." type questions.  It is important that you understand that in the case of the control question you mention, that all of the above occurs before the exam (in-test phase with polygraph charts rolling so to speak) is administered.  It is not until you finish with ALL of your admissions of control question infraction and will tell him that you are being honest in answering "No" to his rephrased question of "Other than what you have told me, have you ever lied to someone that you love?" that the in-test phase (the actual administration of the polygraph examination with sensors attached and data being recorded) will take place.  When you have ended your admissions to this and any other control questions within a given test, then the "test" will begin.

Okay Drew, now that I have read the above, I am the one who is confused....   :-/  and I ADMINISTER polygraph examinations...!

Close your eyes, take a deep breath, and read the instructions above.  Haven't you figured it out yet?  All these convoluted, contradicting, complex orders that people like you, George, and others provide are WAY beyond the grasp of a whole lot of people out there...        You are giving folks WAY to much to try to do and are trying to explain at nausium a concept they don't quite get (and most never will).    

As a result the polygraph community is seeing with increasing frequency larger and larger numbers of confused, self occupied, worried people who are half assed trying things they don't really understand, and contrary to the stuff put out on this site, are usually caught.

Truly, you people are not doing anybody any favors, but keep doing it.  The entertainment value alone makes it all worth while...

PolyCop

[Mr. Truth]

Truly, you people are not doing anybody any favors, but keep doing it.  The entertainment value alone makes it all worth while...  

Yes, it is immensely satisfying knowing I can completely fool polygraphers - newbies up to and including very experienced DODPI-trained ones - with the use of countermeasures. What is amazing about the process is that it is so simple to use. It worked the first time, the last time, and every time in between, and I've taken a boat load of them. But I would be remiss in not recognizing my inspiration that led me to success, namely, polygraphers like you, arrogant in your power and control over the future of others, scoring me as deception indicated when I was telling the truth.  You and your like got me on board with the countermeasure program, and all I can really say at this point is, "Thank you." You showed me the love, and I am returning it, many times over, when and where I can.

[PolyCop]

Yes, it is immensely satisfying knowing I can completely fool polygraphers - newbies up to and including very experienced DODPI-trained ones - with the use of countermeasures. What is amazing about the process is that it is so simple to use. It worked the first time, the last time, and every time in between, and I've taken a boat load of them..

"The first one, ""the last one," a "boatload of them?"  Ah,  Mr. "Truth", you finally give away your deception.  I have been in polygraph for years, and I have YET to meet ANYONE who has taken a "boatload" of polygraph exams.  How big a boat?  A dingy?, a cabin cruiser?, maybe an aircraft carrier.  Maybe you have been buying them wholesale?  I understand they are cheaper by the dozen, or the gross.  Ah yes, if I were getting ready to be administered a polygraph exam, I would surely be listening to someone who has found himself in the position to have taken a "boatload" of polygraph examinations...    

PolyCop

[Mr. Truth]

Shows how little you know. As a sex offender, I was required to take one at least every six months. Which is how it turned out towards the end of my time. The first several years, when know-it-all arrogant polygraphers, some like you, I'm sure, were scoring me deceptive on monitoring exams regarding activities I did not engage in, using logically-constructed and related questions like "have you had sexual contact with anyone other than your wife?" (NDI) and "have you had sexual contact with anyone under the age of 18?" (DI) [explain how that can happen, if you don't mind, given that my wife is well over 18].

So, without a passing test, the frequency drops to at most every three months. Being eager to achieve success in treatment, and wanting to gain more privileges as a result of passing, at times I'd do them two weeks apart. Of course, the test being so reliable, and the testing so replicable, one could wonder why results would bounce around from all deceptive, all inconclusive, to two NDI/two inconclusive over the course of several weeks, with the questions covering the same time period. Gee, I'm thinking the polygraph is more screwed up than what I knew about it beforehand.

So a boat load is in the neighborhood of 40 tests in seven years. When I say countermeasures work, for anyone else reading this, believe me, they work. It was especially satisfying spoofing the DODPI-trained, ex-government employee-turned-into-money-grubbing-SO-polygrapher. Ironically, the first one I passed, after about three years into probation was with this gentleman, and I did it "naturally." Since the time period in question stayed the same, was I really lying all those other times when I was scored deceptive? Only three people know for sure: the Shadow, the polygrapher (never wrong in the "expert" opinions), and me. "Me" says, "no I wasn't lying," so you or anyone else who may think otherwise, well, that's just too damn bad. You want to apply junk science against certain people, then expect to get junk results in return. Put your faith into people like PolyCop and other arbiters and fact-finders of truth just like him.