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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by T.M. Cullen
- Feb 17, 2009, 10:15 PMSo what brilliant comments did your attorney have to say about your polygraph experience? Or did you get a different attorney?
TC
TC
Posted by Destroyed Family
- Feb 17, 2009, 08:04 PMHad the preliminary exam today. The PA of course learned that I failed the polygraph (results weren't acutally given to her, however...). What a complete waste of time! I had to miss yet another day of work, drive 5 hours each way to appear in court so the PA can tell us the charges are not going to be dropped and the case is moving on. I had to show up why??? 
Pre-trial is set for March 4.
Pre-trial is set for March 4. Posted by Twoblock
- Feb 11, 2009, 03:55 AMJC
Forget about the polygraph. It's a non-factor. It can't be intered as evidence unless both sides agree to it. Surely you attorney would do that, though he did (unwisely) advise you to take it. Tell him/her to get educated to this flim-flam proceedure. I will say this for him, he is wise to hold a trump card.
Sometimes it is difficult to collect money judgements but, it is sometimes true that if they don't pay up they go to jail. There will be no necessity for a second trial if the original action states you are demanding atty. fees, your monotary losses plus punitive damages if you win. From what you say, you should have a slam dunk win
Forget about the polygraph. It's a non-factor. It can't be intered as evidence unless both sides agree to it. Surely you attorney would do that, though he did (unwisely) advise you to take it. Tell him/her to get educated to this flim-flam proceedure. I will say this for him, he is wise to hold a trump card.
Sometimes it is difficult to collect money judgements but, it is sometimes true that if they don't pay up they go to jail. There will be no necessity for a second trial if the original action states you are demanding atty. fees, your monotary losses plus punitive damages if you win. From what you say, you should have a slam dunk win
Posted by T.M. Cullen
- Feb 10, 2009, 10:30 PMQuoteHe also had me deliberatly lie on all the questions during one part of the session. He asked each question twice. The first time I was to tell the truth, then I was supposed to lie. Didn't make a whole lot of sense to me. What's the point if I know he knows I'm lying because I'm being asked to?
Polygraph operators do that to try to get you to BELIEVE the machine actually detects lies. Probablem is, what you did was not really a lie (except in the bizarro world of polygraphy). A true lie must be deceptive. But he TOLD YOU to say something not true, or incorrect. You did not attempt to deceive by following his instructions.
TC
Posted by Destroyed Family
- Feb 10, 2009, 10:16 PMThank you for the videos George. Wow, learned something. I did talk to the police over the phone a couple of times before finally getting an attorney. I basically just told him I wasn't there and gave him my friend's name and number. The last time he called me was to tell me that he was going to pull the records on my cell phone for my whereabouts during the time period. I told him to go ahead. This information was in the police report, which completely supports what I told him, which is why I was completely surprised when I learned I was still going to be arraigned. I was never actually called in for questioning. It was interesting because on the police report it mentions the reason for me not getting called in was because I had retained an attorney. Makes sense now.
It also now makes sense why my attorney doesn't want to lay out all the evidence on my side just yet as well. They have my cell phone records and my witness (thanks to me talking to the police
), however do not have my landline records or my reciept or the couple of other witnesses I have to show I was the only one that could have made the landline call. He keeps saying that he doesn't want to lay all the cards on the table right away, not until he knows if they have anything more than her saying she saw me.
My attorney recommended that I take the polygraph as a possible way to avoid the expense of a trial. I just never thought that I'd actually fail it. Based on what you all have said here, the mear fact that I was completely honest, probably coupled with the fact that I didn't get to bed until the wee hours of the morning (I had to drive from where I am living now to there after work, which is normally about a 5 hr drive, took me almost 7 hrs that night) and I hadn't eaten anything since lunch the day before probably did me in. Yes, there were some of those control questions in there. A couple were "have I ever stolen anything before" and "have I ever lied to anyone before". He also had me deliberatly lie on all the questions during one part of the session. He asked each question twice. The first time I was to tell the truth, then I was supposed to lie. Didn't make a whole lot of sense to me. What's the point if I know he knows I'm lying because I'm being asked to?
I would love to take them to court to re-coup the money I have spent ($3K so far, and that's just legal fees, it doesn't include all the back and forth and time off work). I'm told those cases are extremely difficult to win though. I would have to PROVE they completely made this up to target me. How do I do that? How do I prove that she didn't see someone in her driveway, or that I never wrote that letter, or that a pillow case wasn't stolen, or that no one boke into their house?
It also now makes sense why my attorney doesn't want to lay out all the evidence on my side just yet as well. They have my cell phone records and my witness (thanks to me talking to the police
), however do not have my landline records or my reciept or the couple of other witnesses I have to show I was the only one that could have made the landline call. He keeps saying that he doesn't want to lay all the cards on the table right away, not until he knows if they have anything more than her saying she saw me.My attorney recommended that I take the polygraph as a possible way to avoid the expense of a trial. I just never thought that I'd actually fail it. Based on what you all have said here, the mear fact that I was completely honest, probably coupled with the fact that I didn't get to bed until the wee hours of the morning (I had to drive from where I am living now to there after work, which is normally about a 5 hr drive, took me almost 7 hrs that night) and I hadn't eaten anything since lunch the day before probably did me in. Yes, there were some of those control questions in there. A couple were "have I ever stolen anything before" and "have I ever lied to anyone before". He also had me deliberatly lie on all the questions during one part of the session. He asked each question twice. The first time I was to tell the truth, then I was supposed to lie. Didn't make a whole lot of sense to me. What's the point if I know he knows I'm lying because I'm being asked to?
I would love to take them to court to re-coup the money I have spent ($3K so far, and that's just legal fees, it doesn't include all the back and forth and time off work). I'm told those cases are extremely difficult to win though. I would have to PROVE they completely made this up to target me. How do I do that? How do I prove that she didn't see someone in her driveway, or that I never wrote that letter, or that a pillow case wasn't stolen, or that no one boke into their house?
Posted by Twoblock
- Feb 10, 2009, 11:11 AMJC
Go ahead and fight this thing. Apparently you can prove your where-abouts at he time. Polygraph results cannot be intered as evidence.
they cannot prove their case. You can recover your costs from them when you win. Teach them a lesson.
Go ahead and fight this thing. Apparently you can prove your where-abouts at he time. Polygraph results cannot be intered as evidence.
they cannot prove their case. You can recover your costs from them when you win. Teach them a lesson.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Feb 10, 2009, 05:16 AMJC,
I'm sorry to learn of your unfortunate polygraph experience. Polygraphy has no scientific basis and is inherently biased against the truthful. False positives are quite common. On the other hand, liars can pass the polygraph using simple countermeasures that polygraphers have no demonstrated ability to detect. The fact that the prosecutor offered to drop charges if you could "pass" this ridiculous test is strong evidence that she knows her case against you is quite weak.
At this point, I think you need a good criminal defense lawyer. If a lawyer advised you to submit to a lie detector test, then I suggest that you fire that lawyer and seek out a more competent one. Martindale's free Lawyer Locator service might be helpful in this regard:
http://www.martindale.com
Moreover, I think you would be well advised not to speak further with any police officers or the prosecutor regarding your case without a competent lawyer by your side. For more on why it is unwise to talk with the police, see these lectures by law professor James Duane and police interrogator George Bruch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE&feature=channel_page
I'm sorry to learn of your unfortunate polygraph experience. Polygraphy has no scientific basis and is inherently biased against the truthful. False positives are quite common. On the other hand, liars can pass the polygraph using simple countermeasures that polygraphers have no demonstrated ability to detect. The fact that the prosecutor offered to drop charges if you could "pass" this ridiculous test is strong evidence that she knows her case against you is quite weak.
At this point, I think you need a good criminal defense lawyer. If a lawyer advised you to submit to a lie detector test, then I suggest that you fire that lawyer and seek out a more competent one. Martindale's free Lawyer Locator service might be helpful in this regard:
http://www.martindale.com
Moreover, I think you would be well advised not to speak further with any police officers or the prosecutor regarding your case without a competent lawyer by your side. For more on why it is unwise to talk with the police, see these lectures by law professor James Duane and police interrogator George Bruch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE&feature=channel_page
Posted by T.M. Cullen
- Feb 10, 2009, 12:56 AMQuoteSo basically I'm out another $500 and right back to where I started from, except now the PA will know I failed a polygraph.
Did your attorney recommend you take the polygraph? You DO have an attorney, don't you?!! Is he/she a PD or private attorney? If so, and if there was NO evidence against you, then WHY would YOUR attorney want you to take it? What explanation did they (your legal counsel) give you? At any rate, if all they have is a "failed" polygraph, but no evidence (and that why they want you to take it) they don't have a very good case.
QuoteI made sure that I was completely open and honest throughout the whole procedure. Didn't hide anything. I was even completely honest with the "association" type questions.
This actually makes you more likely to fail, depending on what format they used (if control questions used). Were there any general type questions like "Have you ever lied to an authority figure?" Versus more specific questions relevant to your case like "Did you write that letter to your ex?"
QuoteI am so upset right now about this whole thing. Being accused of something I didn't do, and worse, knowing that they are completely making it up. Knowing that our system allows for this kind of thing without any repercussions to them. Being treated like a criminal throughout this whole thing. Then being asked to take a completely boggus test. I have quickly learned that there is no such thing as "innocent until proven guilty". It's the other way around. I'm having to prove my innocence, and spending a ton of money in the process
Join the club. Polygraphs are not accurate and have NO scientific validity. A polygraph is actually an interrogation disguised as a test. The actual machine is more a prop used to intimidate you into saying something. Maybe they should have sent you to see a psychic instead.
Posted by Destroyed Family
- Feb 09, 2009, 09:35 PMOk, here's my experience. I'll start with some background of the issue first.
I got a divorce about 3 1/2 years ago. As far as divorces go, ours was quite civil. No fighting over anything, no kids, etc. He kept the house, I kept the vacant land next door. We pretty much signed the papers and went our separate ways. Since then we may have traded a half dozen e-mails or so, all very civil. Things like "could you look to see if you have this or that", he let me know when our last dog died, etc. The last communication I had with him was a year and a half ago. I sent him a quick e-mail letting him know my grandmother died, just thought he'd like to know. I hadn't even been over to check on my land in over a year.
Then I got a call from a police officer asking me for my whereabouts on 29Oct08. Normally I would have been at work, however I had been let go from that job and was in the process of re-locating for a new job that I was lucky enough to land right away. I had arranged to have a late lunch with a friend of mine that afternoon and told the officer this. Apparently my ex had re-married and his new wife claimed that she saw me drive past her in their driveway that afternoon. She claimed that she was "100%" sure it was me based on pics she had seen of me. She described my car, which wouldn't have been difficult because it's the same car I was driving when my ex and I divorced. I gave the officer my friends name and number, which he called right away. Her story and time matched mine exactly. I thought this would be the end of it, however it wasn't. I finally got a hold of the police report 23Dec08 after numerous requests. This report was a joke. My ex and his wife claimed that I stole a letter (that I never wrote) and a pillow case (bizarre I know). The officer tried to get finger prints from the closet I supposedly went though and was unsuccessful.
I have actually been arraigned on this thing! I have both land line phone records, cell phone records, a reciept and a witness that all match up with my story. All they have is a new wife claiming that I was there. The prosecuting attorney (PA) said that if I could pass a polygraph she would drop the charges. I agreed to do so. I have always been skeptical of them, but figured that I should be able to pass it since I had nothing to hide. I made sure that I was completely open and honest throughout the whole procedure. Didn't hide anything. I was even completely honest with the "association" type questions. This was on 31Jan09. On 05Feb09 I learned that I failed it. I couldn't believe it. Apparently we don't have to give the PA the results, however the mear fact that we are not tells her that I failed the thing. So basically I'm out another $500 and right back to where I started from, except now the PA will know I failed a polygraph.
I am so upset right now about this whole thing. Being accused of something I didn't do, and worse, knowing that they are completely making it up. Knowing that our system allows for this kind of thing without any repercussions to them. Being treated like a criminal throughout this whole thing. Then being asked to take a completely boggus test. I have quickly learned that there is no such thing as "innocent until proven guilty". It's the other way around. I'm having to prove my innocence, and spending a ton of money in the process.
I got a divorce about 3 1/2 years ago. As far as divorces go, ours was quite civil. No fighting over anything, no kids, etc. He kept the house, I kept the vacant land next door. We pretty much signed the papers and went our separate ways. Since then we may have traded a half dozen e-mails or so, all very civil. Things like "could you look to see if you have this or that", he let me know when our last dog died, etc. The last communication I had with him was a year and a half ago. I sent him a quick e-mail letting him know my grandmother died, just thought he'd like to know. I hadn't even been over to check on my land in over a year.
Then I got a call from a police officer asking me for my whereabouts on 29Oct08. Normally I would have been at work, however I had been let go from that job and was in the process of re-locating for a new job that I was lucky enough to land right away. I had arranged to have a late lunch with a friend of mine that afternoon and told the officer this. Apparently my ex had re-married and his new wife claimed that she saw me drive past her in their driveway that afternoon. She claimed that she was "100%" sure it was me based on pics she had seen of me. She described my car, which wouldn't have been difficult because it's the same car I was driving when my ex and I divorced. I gave the officer my friends name and number, which he called right away. Her story and time matched mine exactly. I thought this would be the end of it, however it wasn't. I finally got a hold of the police report 23Dec08 after numerous requests. This report was a joke. My ex and his wife claimed that I stole a letter (that I never wrote) and a pillow case (bizarre I know). The officer tried to get finger prints from the closet I supposedly went though and was unsuccessful.
I have actually been arraigned on this thing! I have both land line phone records, cell phone records, a reciept and a witness that all match up with my story. All they have is a new wife claiming that I was there. The prosecuting attorney (PA) said that if I could pass a polygraph she would drop the charges. I agreed to do so. I have always been skeptical of them, but figured that I should be able to pass it since I had nothing to hide. I made sure that I was completely open and honest throughout the whole procedure. Didn't hide anything. I was even completely honest with the "association" type questions. This was on 31Jan09. On 05Feb09 I learned that I failed it. I couldn't believe it. Apparently we don't have to give the PA the results, however the mear fact that we are not tells her that I failed the thing. So basically I'm out another $500 and right back to where I started from, except now the PA will know I failed a polygraph.
I am so upset right now about this whole thing. Being accused of something I didn't do, and worse, knowing that they are completely making it up. Knowing that our system allows for this kind of thing without any repercussions to them. Being treated like a criminal throughout this whole thing. Then being asked to take a completely boggus test. I have quickly learned that there is no such thing as "innocent until proven guilty". It's the other way around. I'm having to prove my innocence, and spending a ton of money in the process.