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[quote author=George W. Maschke link=msg=31516 date=1225177794]
[quote author=SanchoPanza link=topic=0.0 date=1225149919]Excuse me the complete quote should be
[quote]Some examinees who have not committed crimes, security breaches, or related offenses, or who have little to hide, might nevertheless engage in countermeasures with the intent to minimize their chances of false positive test results (Maschke and Scalabrini, no date). This strategy is not risk-free for innocent examinees. There is evidence that some countermeasures used by innocent examinees can in fact increase their chances of appearing deceptive (Dawson, 1980; Honts, Amato, and Gordon, 2001). Also, several agencies that use the polygraph in screening job applicants or current employees have indicated that examinees who are judged to be using countermeasures may, on these grounds alone, be subject to the same personnel actions that would result from a test that indicated deception The Polygraph and Lie Detection (2003) National Academy of Sciences
Board on Behavioral, Cognitive, and Sensory Sciences and Education (BCSSE)
Committee on National Statistics (CNSTAT)  PG 140[/quote][/quote]

It is dishonest to cite the NAS report to support the notion that the kinds of countermeasures outlined in [url=https://antipolygraph.org/lie-behind-the-lie-detector.pdf][i]The Lie Behind the Lie Detector[/i][/url] increase the risk of a truthful person being wrongly found deceptive. As [url=https://antipolygraph.org/forum/index.php?topic=3696.msg25991#msg25991]discussed previously[/url] on this board, the foregoing passage refers to a study by Honts and Amato of the use of [i]spontaneous[/i] (that is, untrained) countermeasures. See, Honts, C.R., S.L. Amato, and A.K. Gordon, "Effects of spontaneous countermeasures used against the comparison question test." [i]Polygraph[/i] Vol. 30 (2001), No. 1, pp. 1-9.

In this study, the "countermeasures" were things that subjects [i]ignorant of polygraph procedure[/i] did [i]on their own[/i] in the belief that it might help them pass the polygraph. Such countermeasures are not comparable to those suggested in [i]The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.[/i]

With regard to the 1980 study by Michael E. Dawson ("Physiological Detection of Deception: Measurement of Responses to Questions and Answers During Countermeasure Maneuvers," [i]Psychophysiology[/i] 17 (1), 8–17), as explained in the article abstract: "All subjects were trained in the Stanislavsky method of acting and were instructed to use this method to appear innocent on the polygraph test." Again, this is nothing at all like the countermeasures suggested in [i]The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.[/i]

Simply put, there is no evidence to support the counterintuitive notion that countermeasure use as a rule increases the risk of a false positive outcome.

[quote]Authors such as Maschke and Williams suggest that effective countermeasure strategies can be easily learned and that a small amount of practice is enough to give examinees an excellent chance of “beating” the polygraph. Because the effective application of mental or physical countermeasures on the part of examinees would require skill in distinguishing between relevant and comparison questions, skill in regulating physiological response, and skill in concealing countermeasures from trained examiners, claims that it is easy to train examinees to “beat” both the polygraph and trained examiners require scientific supporting evidence to be credible. However, we are not aware of any such research.  The Polygraph and Lie Detection (2003) National Academy of Sciences. Board on Behavioral, Cognitive, and Sensory Sciences and Education (BCSSE) Committee on National Statistics (CNSTAT)  PG 147  [/quote]

While research into the [i]ease[/i] with which countermeasures may be learned is scarce, the existing peer-reviewed research (by Charles Honts and others, see citations and article abstracts in the bibliography of [i]The Lie Behind the Lie Detector)[/i] shows that half of programmed guilty subjects passed the polygraph after receiving [i]no more than 30 minutes[/i] of training. Those facing polygraphic interrogation in the real world typically have considerably more time and much greater motivation to learn countermeasures.
[/quote]

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Topic summary

Posted by George W. Maschke

- Nov 18, 2008, 01:09 PM

Quote from: 0D22202B2C430 on Nov 17, 2008, 04:49 PMI am applying for Custody Assistant with the Los Angeles Sheriff Department and am currently waiting for my background to clear. Next Iwill be applying for border Patrol are you familar with the test procedure either one employs?

I believe that both LASD and Border Patrol use a probable-lie control question test (CQT) for pre-employment screening. The Border Patrol's specific polygraph technique is likely some variation of the Law Enforcement Pre-Employment Test, the examiner's guide for which you'll find here:

https://antipolygraph.org/documents/dodpi-lepet.pdf

And you'll find a pamphlet produced by the LASD polygraph section here:

https://antipolygraph.org/documents/lasd-polygraph-pamphlet.pdf

The pamphlet's sample polygraph report features check boxes with, presumably, the section's most commonly used polygraph techniques: ZCT (Zone Comparison Test), MGQT (Modified General Question Test), AFMGQT (Air Force Modified General Question Test), and POT (Peak of Tension). Of these, the most likely techniques that would be used in a screening situation are the MGQT and AFMGQT. Regarding these techniques, see p. 364 ff. of James Allan Matte's Forensic Psychophysiology Using the Polygraph.

Posted by Conquistador

- Nov 17, 2008, 04:49 PM

Quote from: PhilGainey on Nov 06, 2008, 01:44 PMConquistador,

If you disclosed that you accidently took a been on your application of course you should NOT use CM on that.

Just admit to it, and move on.

For what purpose are you taking the polygraph? Criminal suspect? Job applicant? Which agency?

You DO NOT use CM on relevant questions! If this is a LE agency, stealing would probably be a RELEVANT issue. So admit to taking the pen, BY MISTAKE< but don't admit to anything else!

Don't sign anything, and do not volunteer anything of a self incriminating nature concerning RELEVANT questions, NO MATTER how INSIGNIFICANT you may think it is. Except for the pen which you've already discclosed, and they probably don't give a shit about!

TC

I am applying for Custody Assistant with the Los Angeles Sheriff Department and am currently waiting for my background to clear. Next I will be applying for border Patrol are you familar with the test procedure either one employs?

Posted by Sergeant1107

- Nov 09, 2008, 05:25 AM

Quote from: Phillip_F_Queeg on Nov 06, 2008, 11:44 PMDon't people change wikis all the time? My college professor banned using them for research because they change all the time and they aren't very accurate.

I think thats one of the base rules for wikihow is that anyone is supposed to be able to change them right?

I don't think you understand. No one is claiming that people cannot change wikis, or that wikis are not changed frequently.

George's post was simply pointing out that the wiki article was changed, either by a person who believes the polygraph is a valid test or by a person who doesn't want correct information on the polygraph to be publicly available.

Posted by George W. Maschke

- Nov 07, 2008, 11:54 AM

Quote from: PhilGainey on Oct 28, 2008, 09:20 PM
QuoteThe last Question I have is should I use counter measures on irrelevant questions? or just the Control?....I apologize if that has been asked a million times I just want to make sure...

You employ CM on the CONTROL questions only! If and only if there are control questions. They compare your reaction to the control questions and relevant questions. If you react more to the control questions you pass.

DO NOT USE CMs ON IRRELEVANT QUESTIONS! That is, questions like ("Is your name...?" "Were you born in ...?"...etc.

Note: With some test formats, you don't need to use CMs. For example, in 2000 I took the polygraph at the NSA. They used a format in which there were NO CONTROL QUESTIONS. There were only relevant questions (4 counter intelligence questions), and then some filler questions ("Is your name...?", "Were you born in....?"). In that format, if you react (above a certain threshold) more on one RQ, versus the other RQs, you fail.

TC

Indeed, the NSA's standby polygraph technique is the Relevant/Irrelevant one. However, most law enforcement agencies use some variant of the Control Question Test to screen applicants. One of the most commonly used probable-lie control questions involves theft from an employer. If a law enforcement applicant admits to pilfering a pen or two when asked, "Did you ever take anything from an employer?" the question will be re-phrased, "Other than what you told me, did you ever take anything from an employer?" The question is still a control question, and the examinee's denial is still expected to be less than fully truthful. And an examinee using countermeasures would still want to show a reaction to this question.

It should be borne in mind, however, that some agencies use a relevant question about major theft from an employer. For example, a relevant question reportedly used by the LAPD is, "Have you stolen more than four hundred dollars in cash or property from an employer?" If a question about theft from an employer involves theft beyond a significant dollar threshold, it's safe to assume that it is a relevant question.

Posted by T.M. Cullen

- Nov 07, 2008, 01:27 AM

In case anyone doesn't already know, J.B. Books was a character in the movie THE SHOOTIST with John Wayne.

Later Pilgrims!

TC

Posted by Phillip F Queeg

- Nov 06, 2008, 11:44 PM

Don't people change wikis all the time? My college professor banned using them for research because they change all the time and they aren't very accurate.

I think thats one of the base rules for wikihow is that anyone is supposed to be able to change them right?

Posted by George W. Maschke

- Nov 06, 2008, 11:32 PM

The wikiHow article was heavily vandalized, evidently by a polygrapher using the screen name JBBOOKS, on 22 October 2008:

http://www.wikihow.com/index.php?title=Cheat-a-Polygraph-Test-(Lie-Detector)&diff=2666910&oldid=2532424

This was one week after I posted an observation on the article's popularity here:

https://antipolygraph.org/forum/index.php?topic=3256.msg31273#msg31273

Posted by T.M. Cullen

- Nov 06, 2008, 04:59 PM

YIKES!!

That guy is desperate to keep the truth from being exposed.

TC

Posted by G Scalabr

- Nov 06, 2008, 03:45 PM

TC,

You make want to look at the Wiki link again--it appears to have been edited by a polygraph operator.

By the references to "Dr. George Maschke," it would be reasonable to conclude that the editing may have been done by the same polygraph operator recently ejected from this site.

Posted by T.M. Cullen

- Nov 06, 2008, 01:44 PM

Conquistador,

If you disclosed that you accidently took a been on your application of course you should NOT use CM on that.

Just admit to it, and move on.

For what purpose are you taking the polygraph? Criminal suspect? Job applicant? Which agency?

You DO NOT use CM on relevant questions! If this is a LE agency, stealing would probably be a RELEVANT issue. So admit to taking the pen, BY MISTAKE< but don't admit to anything else!

Don't sign anything, and do not volunteer anything of a self incriminating nature concerning RELEVANT questions, NO MATTER how INSIGNIFICANT you may think it is. Except for the pen which you've already discclosed, and they probably don't give a shit about!

TC

Posted by Conquistador

- Nov 06, 2008, 04:50 AM

lol..alrightee I have another one that popped into my head and I again thank you for you knowledge this matter....
But as I recall I asked you about the using the counter measure if they asked me have I ever stolen anything?...even though on my background packet I filled out that I have mistakenly took a pen from work in the past...

You agreed that I should use counter measure on it..

When I fess up to the fact that I have....you said if I got a dickhead examiner it would be a problem..
what would happen if he asked me to write down that I have stolen a pen?..would this situation realistically happen?...(signed comfession)

Because I remember reading the book and it saying never to sign such a thing..but I am confused on this one because it is on my background packet..

sorry if I seem a bit worried over catious

I still see the polygrapher as an escaped mental patient who had tied me up to a card board box which can detect my lies LOL

Posted by T.M. Cullen

- Oct 29, 2008, 10:23 PM

QuoteThank you for your reply I still have one another lingering question though about doing mental math as a counter measure.
Does it raise your physical responses or shifts your physical respones to a some what neutral state?..

You do difficult math in your head (like counting backwards by 3 from 2317 as fast as you can). It raises your response, unless you're a math geek, in which case it gives you a hard-on!

TC

Posted by Conquistador

- Oct 29, 2008, 08:21 PM

Quote from: PhilGainey on Oct 28, 2008, 09:20 PMYou employ CM on the CONTROL questions only!If and only if there are controlquestions.They compare your reaction to the control questions and relevant questions.If you react more to the control questions you pass.

Thank you for your reply I still have one another lingering question though about doing mental math as a counter measure.
Does it raise your physical responses or shifts your physical respones to a some what neutral state?..

Posted by T.M. Cullen

- Oct 28, 2008, 09:20 PM

QuoteThe last Question I have is should I use counter measures on irrelevant questions? or just the Control?....I apologize if that has been asked a million times I just want to make sure...

You employ CM on the CONTROL questions only! If and only if there are control questions. They compare your reaction to the control questions and relevant questions. If you react more to the control questions you pass.

DO NOT USE CMs ON IRRELEVANT QUESTIONS! That is, questions like ("Is your name...?" "Were you born in ...?"...etc.

Note: With some test formats, you don't need to use CMs. For example, in 2000 I took the polygraph at the NSA. They used a format in which there were NO CONTROL QUESTIONS. There were only relevant questions (4 counter intelligence questions), and then some filler questions ("Is your name...?", "Were you born in....?"). In that format, if you react (above a certain threshold) more on one RQ, versus the other RQs, you fail.

TC

Posted by Conquistador

- Oct 28, 2008, 05:44 PM

Well I thank all of you for the clarification and for those of you who tried to throw me off I just want to say I am pro countermeasures because I have novice knowledge about the polygraph and with just using common sense if counter measures did not work then why would they need to use pressure sensitive pads to try to detect such measures?...

Another Question I have is when they ask you to do a math problem in your head does that raise your physical responses?..or does it keep them neutral?..because a family friend of mine said she did mental math during the whole process of the polygraph and passed?...

The last Question I have is should I use counter measures on irrelevant questions? or just the Control?....I apologize if that has been asked a million times I just want to make sure...

I again thank you for your time responding...