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AntiPolygraph.org Message Board › Polygraph and CVSA Forums › Polygraph Policy › Nick Savastano, R.I.P.

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Nick Savastano, R.I.P. (Read 15303 times)

T.M. Cullen God Member Offline Posts: 858 Location: Hawaii Joined: Dec 5^th, 2007 Gender:	Re: Nick Savastano, R.I.P. Reply #15 - Dec 23^rd, 2008 at 6:20pm	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	Quote: How would you account for this site's lack of false positive complaints under EPPA? Those employees receive 48 hour written notice, so we can assume they have time to search and become aware of this site and others. People don't want to rock the boat. Many have come to this board perplexed as to what to do. They submit to peer pressure. They don't want to be the only employee who "refuses to take the polygraph". So then, if you fail despite telling the truth, on a polygraph you volunteered to take, under what grounds would you complain? So here are you choices. Refuse to take the test claiming your right under EPPA, and get accused of hiding something. Or take the test voluntarily, submitting to peer pressure, and risk failing despite telling the truth. Most don't become aware of the latter until after the fact, and are totally blown away that they told the truth yet failed. Are employees made aware of the fact that the polygraph has been found to be of limited reliabilty and of questionable validity by the scientific community? Are they made aware of the risk of coming up "false positive". It seems they should be made aware of this to make an intelligent decision whether to submit to it. And not just be given some long government form to sign. Their employer should go over all of the above with the employee. They should specifically point out that the polygraph is of questionable reliability, and that they could possibly fail even if they tell the truth. A better question would be how do you account for all the false positives? Why had private sector polygraphs become restricted in the first place if they are 98% accurate as claimed by polygraph operators? Do employers realize that polygraph operators routinely lie to examinees during the test, FALSELY claiming 98%? They should be made aware of what they are subjecting their employees to. TC
	« Last Edit: Dec 24^th, 2008 at 1:00am by T.M. Cullen »
	"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)." Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
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pailryder Especially Senior User Offline Posts: 441 Joined: Jun 5^th, 2006	Re: Nick Savastano, R.I.P. Reply #16 - Dec 24^th, 2008 at 12:50am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	MR Cullen Polygraph was restricted because in the late 70's early 80's we (private examiners) refused to clean our own house and police our own. Abuses led to a public backlash and EPPA. Today employees receive 48 hour written notice, not including weekends or holidays, so they can do research or seek whatever advice they desire. No job related action can be taken based on their refusal. They are informed of their right to consult with a repersentative before each phase. At the test I am required to provide a copy of their rights and required to READ it to them and obtain their signature that I have done so. There are few complaints because employees are allowed to make well informed decesions and because with the addition of computer collection and scoring on single issue specific theft cases we get it right almost every time.

	No good social purpose can be served by inventing ways of beating the lie detector or deceiving polygraphers. David Thoreson Lykken
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T.M. Cullen God Member Offline Posts: 858 Location: Hawaii Joined: Dec 5^th, 2007 Gender:	Re: Nick Savastano, R.I.P. Reply #17 - Dec 24^th, 2008 at 1:09am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	Quote: Polygraph was restricted because in the late 70's early 80's we (private examiners) refused to clean our own house and police our own. Abuses led to a public backlash and EPPA. Also because of concern regarding THE RELIABILITY AND VALIDITY of the polygraph. IOW, concern over whether the polygraph can and does actually do what it is pro ported to do. Quote: Today employees receive 48 hour written notice, not including weekends or holidays, so they can do research or seek whatever advice they desire. Wow, a whole 48 HOURS! To research the polygraph and get advice. The average person could devour and comprehend the NAS report in that amount of time! Get serious, that isn't enough time. TC

	"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)." Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
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pailryder Especially Senior User Offline Posts: 441 Joined: Jun 5^th, 2006	Re: Nick Savastano, R.I.P. Reply #18 - Dec 29^th, 2008 at 1:58pm	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	Mr Cullen 48 hours, excluding weekends and holidays, seems like a fair balancing of the employees right to know and the employers need to resolve a matter of internal theft in a timely manner. Where are the EPPA false positives complaints?

	No good social purpose can be served by inventing ways of beating the lie detector or deceiving polygraphers. David Thoreson Lykken
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T.M. Cullen God Member Offline Posts: 858 Location: Hawaii Joined: Dec 5^th, 2007 Gender:	Re: Nick Savastano, R.I.P. Reply #19 - Dec 29^th, 2008 at 9:33pm	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	Quote: Where are the EPPA false positives complaints? Are you saying that simply because there aren't many formal EPPA complaints that there must not be many actual violations? That is absurd. One might just as well ask where were all the sexual harassment complaints years ago when most complaints went UNreported despite laws against it. Once employees were given more facts about that issue, and steps taken to help eliminate the fear of reporting abuses, formal complaints DID rise. I posit you'd see the same phenomenon if people were given all the facts about the polygraph, and not just told edjamacate themselves about it in the "next 48 hours". TC
	« Last Edit: Dec 29^th, 2008 at 10:39pm by T.M. Cullen »
	"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)." Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
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pailryder Especially Senior User Offline Posts: 441 Joined: Jun 5^th, 2006	Re: Nick Savastano, R.I.P. Reply #20 - Dec 30^th, 2008 at 2:15pm	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	Mr C Thank you for your reply, but you seem to have missed my point. I am not asking where are the complints about EPPA violations, those go to the DOL. For twenty years now, every private workplace must clearly display information informing all employees of their right to contact the Wage and Hour Division of the Dept of Labor to complain if their employer fails to follow the law. I am asking about complaints of FALSE POSITIVES from EPPA sanctioned tests. We see new allegations of false positives resulting from law enforcement and government polygraph use on this board every day, or at least every week. And yet, Mr Scalabrini cannot recall a single poster claiming they were falsely accused of theft following an EPPA test. Can you? Not one, not ever, in the history of this site?

	No good social purpose can be served by inventing ways of beating the lie detector or deceiving polygraphers. David Thoreson Lykken
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T.M. Cullen God Member Offline Posts: 858 Location: Hawaii Joined: Dec 5^th, 2007 Gender:	Re: Nick Savastano, R.I.P. Reply #21 - Dec 30^th, 2008 at 6:38pm	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	https://antipolygraph.org/cgi-bin/forums/YaBB.pl?num=1228976324 Maybe LE/GOV types are just more aware of this board. Most have to take the polygraph, there is more word of mouth in those circles. Give me a list of 100 EPPA polygraph examinees from a random sample and I'll interview them and see how many complain of being told they were deceptive when they weren't. TC

	"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)." Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
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Lethe Very Senior User Offline Posts: 233 Joined: Apr 15^th, 2007	Re: Nick Savastano, R.I.P. Reply #22 - Feb 7^th, 2009 at 6:29am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	G Scalabr wrote on Dec 19^th, 2008 at 6:02am: Lethe wrote on Dec 18^th, 2008 at 9:39pm: R.I.P.? I hope the worms make short work of him. And hopefully someone pees on his grave. And to think, I used to be a nice guy. Really, I did. Lethe, Such posts are not appropriate on this forum. Hateful speech like the celebration of a person's death is in violation of AntiPolygraph.org's Posting Policy. As much as I detest polygraphy, I do not feel that a vast majority of those who engage in it are evil people. As I have stated numerous times, I feel that most polygraph operators entered the field with good intentions. Many simply just lack enough understanding of science to realize the destructive value of what they are doing. Those who do understand often appear to settle into a "the ends justify the means" mentality. Regardless of the [false] justification, polygraphy needs to be abolished. Nonetheless, in working toward that goal, our strategy does not involve celebrating the death of any polygraph examiner. If you are going to continue to post on this forum, please do not make further classless, non-substantive posts like the one above. Your characterization of my previous post is correct. I apologize to the forum and to Mr. Savastano's family and friends. Nothing in this post shall constitute evidence that I am a nice guy.

	Is former APA President Skip Webb evil or just stupid? Is former APA President Ed Gelb an idiot or does the polygraph just not work? Did you know that polygrapher Sackett doesn't care about detecting deception to relevant questions?
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