Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5]  ReplyAdd Poll Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) FBI Polygraphed Nathan Johnson, Suspect/Informant in Possible Obama Assassination Plot (Read 39373 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box polytek
User
**
Offline



Posts: 28
Joined: Jul 30th, 2008
Re: FBI Polygraphed Nathan Johnson, Suspect/Informant in Possible Obama Assassination Plot
Reply #60 - Sep 1st, 2008 at 3:20pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
SanchoPanza wrote on Aug 30th, 2008 at 2:37pm:
Notguilty1  Choose to believe the APA if you want, OR Choose to believe the NAS findings. It doesn't really matter,but if you choose toi accept the NAS finding ACCEPT them read the whole thing get someone to explain it to you if you don't understand it and stop mis-interpreting their findings.Sancho Panza


Huh ?
Still trying to decipher the above..
Anyone else got a clue ?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box notguilty1
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 300
Joined: Feb 2nd, 2008
Re: FBI Polygraphed Nathan Johnson, Suspect/Informant in Possible Obama Assassination Plot
Reply #61 - Sep 1st, 2008 at 4:36pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
polytek wrote on Sep 1st, 2008 at 3:20pm:
SanchoPanza wrote on Aug 30th, 2008 at 2:37pm:
Notguilty1  Choose to believe the APA if you want, OR Choose to believe the NAS findings. It doesn't really matter,but if you choose toi accept the NAS finding ACCEPT them read the whole thing get someone to explain it to you if you don't understand it and stop mis-interpreting their findings.Sancho Panza


Huh ?
Still trying to decipher the above..
Anyone else got a clue ?


I can explain. Watch any shell game operator and you'll understand, cleaver yes, but informed educated people can see past the scam.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Lethe
Very Senior User
****
Offline



Posts: 233
Joined: Apr 15th, 2007
Re: FBI Polygraphed Nathan Johnson, Suspect/Informant in Possible Obama Assassination Plot
Reply #62 - Sep 4th, 2008 at 8:32pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
In addition to many other things that he is, SanchoPanza is a hypocrite.  He criticizes George for telling people how to lie on the polygraph but SanchoPanza knows that (1) one is supposed to lie on the polygraph; (2) Former APA President Skip Webb said that a person who refused to lie would be considered to be refusing the polygraph; and, most importantly, (3) most of the instructions that Polygraphers give to subjects are deliberate lies.

So, lying is good when SanchoPanza and Co. do it, but bad when others do it.  This is hypocrisy and special pleading.  Could we expect anything else?

BTW, I'm glad to see that some polygraphers are joining us again here!  I thought I'd scarred all of you off.
  

Is former APA President Skip Webb evil or just stupid?

Is former APA President Ed Gelb an idiot or does the polygraph just not work?

Did you know that polygrapher Sackett doesn't care about detecting deception to relevant questions?
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6220
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
New Details About Alleged Obama Assassination Plot
Reply #63 - Sep 4th, 2008 at 8:58pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
David Neiwert, managing editor of the left-leaning blog, FireDogLake.com, writes that the FBI wanted more serious charges filed against the alleged Obama assassination plotters. See FBI Wanted Obama Plotters Charged, But A Rove Appointee Said No.
  

George W. Maschke
I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time.
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box SanchoPanza
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 343
Joined: Dec 8th, 2007
Re: FBI Polygraphed Nathan Johnson, Suspect/Informant in Possible Obama Assassination Plot
Reply #64 - Sep 5th, 2008 at 8:44pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Lethe Wrote
Quote:
SanchoPanza is a hypocrite.  He criticizes George for telling people how to lie on the polygraph


Lethe,   Until you catch me in a lie, or catch me telling someone it is OK to lie, or quote from a book where I repeatedly tell the reader it is OK lie as well as offer advice on how to tell lies, or find some other material basis for your portentous claim concerning my hypocrisy, you should really just shut up. 

Your application of the word hypocrite pertaining to me is a deliberate ad hominum attack as well as a mischaracterization. 

But I'm not surprised at all. Many people, like yourself, who perpetuate wrongdoing, endorse and encourage amoral behavior, seem to always resort to the "everybody else does it" justification.
 
But thank you for finally admitting that George (Dr. Maschke) tells people how to lie.

Dr. Maschke is still in denial regarding that fact.

Sancho Panza
  

Quand vous citez des langues que vous ne parlez pas afin de sembler intellegent, vous vous avérez seulement que votre tête est gonflée mais videz.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box notguilty1
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 300
Joined: Feb 2nd, 2008
Re: FBI Polygraphed Nathan Johnson, Suspect/Informant in Possible Obama Assassination Plot
Reply #65 - Sep 5th, 2008 at 10:45pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
SanchoPanza wrote on Sep 5th, 2008 at 8:44pm:
Lethe Wrote
Quote:
SanchoPanza is a hypocrite.  He criticizes George for telling people how to lie on the polygraph


Lethe,   Until you catch me in a lie, or catch me telling someone it is OK to lie, or quote from a book where I repeatedly tell the reader it is OK lie as well as offer advice on how to tell lies, or find some other material basis for your portentous claim concerning my hypocrisy, you should really just shut up. 

Your application of the word hypocrite pertaining to me is a deliberate ad hominum attack as well as a mischaracterization. 

But I'm not surprised at all. Many people, like yourself, who perpetuate wrongdoing, endorse and encourage amoral behavior, seem to always resort to the "everybody else does it" justification.
 
But thank you for finally admitting that George (Dr. Maschke) tells people how to lie.

Dr. Maschke is still in denial regarding that fact.

Sancho Panza



Hey Sancho Panza welcome back! Was wondering where you've been.

Let me ask. So it is your opinion that it is OK for Poligraphers to lie like telling people that Polygraph is 98% accurate when they know that it is a lie? 
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box SanchoPanza
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 343
Joined: Dec 8th, 2007
Re: FBI Polygraphed Nathan Johnson, Suspect/Informant in Possible Obama Assassination Plot
Reply #66 - Sep 6th, 2008 at 12:41am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Notguilty1

Your question is actually a poorly disguised statement that presumes unsupportable generalizations' such as  #1 polygraphers lie and #2 there are not any research studies that support a claim of 98% accuracy. 

You cannot support either of those generalizations because, as generalizations, they fail if there is a single truthful polygrapher or a single study that supports 98% accuracy.  Frankly, you lack the motivation to do the reading involved to support your claims. You don't seem to be very clever either.

By the way Sgt. Nazario was found innocent. That makes him just one MORE guy with more proof that his polygraph was accurate than you have that yours was an error.

Sancho Panza
  

Quand vous citez des langues que vous ne parlez pas afin de sembler intellegent, vous vous avérez seulement que votre tête est gonflée mais videz.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box notguilty1
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 300
Joined: Feb 2nd, 2008
Re: FBI Polygraphed Nathan Johnson, Suspect/Informant in Possible Obama Assassination Plot
Reply #67 - Sep 6th, 2008 at 1:48am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
SanchoPanza wrote on Sep 6th, 2008 at 12:41am:
Notguilty1

Your question is actually a poorly disguised statement that presumes unsupportable generalizations' such as  #1 polygraphers lie and #2 there are not any research studies that support a claim of 98% accuracy. 

You cannot support either of those generalizations because, as generalizations, they fail if there is a single truthful polygrapher or a single study that supports 98% accuracy.  Frankly, you lack the motivation to do the reading involved to support your claims. You don't seem to be very clever either.

By the way Sgt. Nazario was found innocent. That makes him just one MORE guy with more proof that his polygraph was accurate than you have that yours was an error.

Sancho Panza


Sancho,
I will pass on responding in like to your personal assaults.
The only reason that my claim is "unsupported" in my persoanl case, is because Poligraphers like mine a former police officer mind you, tells his lies behind close doors and "off the record" but I am not the only one reporting that this claim has been made. There is ample public claims by the Polygraph industry that these are the accuracy rates.
Besides I have all the "proof" I need.
I took the test, told the truth and failed. I was told that the machine is 95-98% accurate and it detects deception. 
THESE ARE ALL LIES!!

If they are not, I would love to have you direct me to the proven scientific literature that substantiates the accuracy claims and the claim that Polygraph detects deception.
THERE ARE NONE!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6220
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: FBI Polygraphed Nathan Johnson, Suspect/Informant in Possible Obama Assassination Plot
Reply #68 - Sep 6th, 2008 at 7:47am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
SanchoPanza wrote on Sep 6th, 2008 at 12:41am:
Notguilty1

Your question is actually a poorly disguised statement that presumes unsupportable generalizations' such as  #1 polygraphers lie and #2 there are not any research studies that support a claim of 98% accuracy. 

You cannot support either of those generalizations because, as generalizations, they fail if there is a single truthful polygrapher or a single study that supports 98% accuracy.  Frankly, you lack the motivation to do the reading involved to support your claims. You don't seem to be very clever either.


Get real! Polygraph "testing" is fundamentally dependent upon the examiner lying to and otherwise deceiving the person being "tested" (and the naivety and gullibility of the latter). It's no stretch to say that polygraphers lie. As Dr. Richardson pointed out in an earlier thread:

Quote:
...Deceptions for the average examiner would include (but not necessarily be limited to) intentional oversimplification, confuscation, misrepresentation, misstatement, exaggeration, and known false statement.  Amongst the areas and activities that such deceptions will occur within a given polygraph exam and on a continual basis are the following:

(1)      A discussion of the autonomic nervous system, its anatomy and physiology, its role in the conduct of a polygraph examination, and the examiner’s background as it supports his pontifications regarding said subjects.  In general, an examiner has no or little educational background that would qualify him to lead such a discussion and his discussion contains the likely error that gross oversimplification often leads to.

(2)      The discussion, conduct of, and post-test explanations of the “stim” test, more recently referred to as an “acquaintance” test.

(3)      Examiner representations about the function of irrelevant questions in a control question test (CQT) polygraph exam.

(4)      Examiner representations about the function of control questions and their relationship to relevant questions in a CQT exam.

(5)      Examiner representations about any recognized validity of the CQT (or other exam formats) in a screening application and about what conclusions can reasonably be drawn from the exam at hand, i.e. the one principally of concern to the examinee.

(6)      A host of misrepresentations that are made as “themes” and spun to examinees during a post-test interrogation.

(7)      The notion that polygraphy merits consideration as a scientific discipline, forensic psychophysiology or other…


The deceptions involved in polygraph "testing" are also outlined, using primary source materials, in Chapter 3 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.

The polygraph community's claim that polygraphy has a 98% (or thereabouts) accuracy rate doesn't pass the giggle test. Polygraph "testing" has no scientific basis to begin with. Not surprisingly, it hasn't been proven through peer-reviewed research to reliably operate at better-than-chance levels under field conditions. On the contrary as Dr. Alan Zelicoff has shown, the polygraph community's best field studies suggest that under field conditions, a truthful person has roughly a 50-50 chance of failing a polygraph.
  

George W. Maschke
I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time.
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box SanchoPanza
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 343
Joined: Dec 8th, 2007
Re: FBI Polygraphed Nathan Johnson, Suspect/Informant in Possible Obama Assassination Plot
Reply #69 - Sep 6th, 2008 at 12:05pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Quote:
Deceptions for the average examiner would include
It is very clear that Dr. Richardson's choice of the word "would" is a statement of possibility. 
If it were probable why didn't he say so? 
If he believed that all polygraphers lie, why didn't he say so?
If he I and other scientists believed that there is a role for the use of polygraph to support criminal investigations, why didn't he say so?   OH WAIT A MINUTE, HE DID SAY THAT. Didn't he?

I see that Dr. Zellicoff is a physician, board certified in internal medicine, and a physicist. This makes him only slightly more qualified to discuss polygraph and statistical analysis that you are. His marginally researched monograph cites YOU as an authority on polygraph.   

You're trying to make me laugh aren't you?

Sancho Panza
  

Quand vous citez des langues que vous ne parlez pas afin de sembler intellegent, vous vous avérez seulement que votre tête est gonflée mais videz.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6220
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: FBI Polygraphed Nathan Johnson, Suspect/Informant in Possible Obama Assassination Plot
Reply #70 - Sep 6th, 2008 at 1:19pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
SanchoPanza wrote on Sep 6th, 2008 at 12:05pm:
Quote:
Deceptions for the average examiner would include
It is very clear that Dr. Richardson's choice of the word "would" is a statement of possibility. 
If it were probable why didn't he say so? 
If he believed that all polygraphers lie, why didn't he say so?
If he I and other scientists believed that there is a role for the use of polygraph to support criminal investigations, why didn't he say so?   OH WAIT A MINUTE, HE DID SAY THAT. Didn't he?


Sancho Panza,

You're being argumentative. That polygraphic lie detection tests involve examiner deception is a well-documented fact -- a fact documented by the polygraph literature itself (which again is explained at length in The Lie Behind the Lie Detector). Your unwillingness to acknowledge this fact betrays a lack of intellectual honesty.

Do you disagree? If so, please explain how to administer a probable-lie control question test (CQT) without lying to or otherwise deceiving the examinee.

Quote:
I see that Dr. Zellicoff is a physician, board certified in internal medicine, and a physicist. This makes him only slightly more qualified to discuss polygraph and statistical analysis that you are. His marginally researched monograph cites YOU as an authority on polygraph.


Dr. Zelicoff is well qualified to discuss the statistical analysis he presents in his paper, "Positive and Negative Predictive Values of Polygraphs: Results from published 'field' studies." If you have any substantive disagreement with his conclusions, please feel free to explain.

Quote:
You're trying to make me laugh aren't you?


No. I'm trying to make you think.
  

George W. Maschke
I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time.
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box SanchoPanza
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 343
Joined: Dec 8th, 2007
Re: FBI Polygraphed Nathan Johnson, Suspect/Informant in Possible Obama Assassination Plot
Reply #71 - Sep 6th, 2008 at 2:10pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Why should I address any of your questions when you choose to ignore mine?

Quote:
"Deceptions for the average examiner would include..."
It is very clear that Dr. Richardson's choice of the word "would" is a statement of possibility. 
If it were probable why didn't he say so? 
If he believed that all polygraphers lie, why didn't he say so?
If he I and other scientists believed that there is a role for the use of polygraph to support criminal investigations, why didn't he say so?
 OH WAIT A MINUTE, HE DID SAY THAT. Didn't he?



Also, has Dr. Zelicoff's monograph ever been published in a peer reviewed scientific journal or did he write it just for his web site and yours?

Do you deny that if Nazario had been convicted you would have used that conviction to support your contention that polygraph doesn't work?

Sancho Panza
  

Quand vous citez des langues que vous ne parlez pas afin de sembler intellegent, vous vous avérez seulement que votre tête est gonflée mais videz.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6220
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: FBI Polygraphed Nathan Johnson, Suspect/Informant in Possible Obama Assassination Plot
Reply #72 - Sep 6th, 2008 at 3:28pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
SanchoPanza wrote on Sep 6th, 2008 at 2:10pm:
Why should I address any of your questions when you choose to ignore mine?

Quote:
"Deceptions for the average examiner would include..."
It is very clear that Dr. Richardson's choice of the word "would" is a statement of possibility. 
If it were probable why didn't he say so? 
If he believed that all polygraphers lie, why didn't he say so?
If he I and other scientists believed that there is a role for the use of polygraph to support criminal investigations, why didn't he say so?
 OH WAIT A MINUTE, HE DID SAY THAT. Didn't he?


Sancho Panza,

I cannot presume to speak for Dr. Richardson, but I think it's reasonably clear from the context of his remarks that the examiner deceptions associated with polygraphic lie tests that he enumerates are commonplace.

To the extent that Dr. Richardson may agree that there is a legitimate role for the use of polygraphs in criminal investigations, I think you'd find such a role constrained to concealed information tests, although based on past discussions I think that he'd agree -- as I do -- that admissions/confessions obtained in the course of traditional lie "tests" (such as the CQT or I&R techniques) may have probative value to the extent that they can be independently corroborated.

Quote:
Also, has Dr. Zelicoff's monograph ever been published in a peer reviewed scientific journal or did he write it just for his web site and yours?


No. And to the best of my knowledge, Dr. Zelicoff has not submitted this article to any journal for publication, either. However, he has had his statistical analysis reviewed by a well qualified statistician. Again, if you have any substantive disagreement with his analysis, please feel free to explain.

Quote:
Do you deny that if Nazario had been convicted you would have used that conviction to support your contention that polygraph doesn't work?


That polygraph testing doesn't work is already about as well established as it could possibly be. There's no raging debate amongst scientists. The only ones claiming 90+ percentile accuracy rates for polygraphy are those with vested interests in this pseudoscience.
  

George W. Maschke
I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time.
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6220
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: FBI Polygraphed Nathan Johnson, Suspect/Informant in Possible Obama Assassination Plot
Reply #73 - Oct 31st, 2008 at 6:10pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
For more on the alleged plot to assassinate U.S. Senator and Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama, see RawStory.com reporter Brad Jacobson's article, "Legal experts question US Attorney's decision not to prosecute Obama 'assassination plot'." The matter of the polygraph "tests" administered to Nathan Johnson and Shawn Adolf is not, however, mentioned:

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Legal_experts_question_Colorado_US_Attorneys_1031....
  

George W. Maschke
I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time.
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 
ReplyAdd Poll Send TopicPrint
FBI Polygraphed Nathan Johnson, Suspect/Informant in Possible Obama Assassination Plot

Please type the characters that appear in the image. The characters must be typed in the same order, and they are case-sensitive.
Open Preview Preview

You can resize the textbox by dragging the right or bottom border.
Insert Hyperlink Insert FTP Link Insert Image Insert E-mail Insert Media Insert Table Insert Table Row Insert Table Column Insert Horizontal Rule Insert Teletype Insert Code Insert Quote Edited Superscript Subscript Insert List /me - my name Insert Marquee Insert Timestamp No Parse
Bold Italicized Underline Insert Strikethrough Highlight
                       
Change Text Color
Insert Preformatted Text Left Align Centered Right Align
resize_wb
resize_hb







Max 200000 characters. Remaining characters:
Text size: pt
More Smilies
View All Smilies
Collapse additional features Collapse/Expand additional features Smiley Wink Cheesy Grin Angry Sad Shocked Cool Huh Roll Eyes Tongue Embarrassed Lips Sealed Undecided Kiss Cry
Attachments More Attachments Allowed file types: txt doc docx ics psd pdf bmp jpe jpg jpeg gif png swf zip rar tar gz 7z odt ods mp3 mp4 wav avi mov 3gp html maff pgp gpg
Maximum Attachment size: 500000 KB
Attachment 1:
X