Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) It don't make no sense! (Read 12926 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box T.M. Cullen
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It don't make no sense!
Mar 3rd, 2008 at 6:29pm
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If an ANS (autonomic nervous system) response, detected by the polygraph thing-a-bob after a "no" answer to a relevant question, is a "visceral" response and not subject to conscious thought (which might well be true), how could it be a "lie"?

A "lie" is a deliberate act produced with ones conscious faculties.  I hear the question, I understand the question, and I will now KNOWINGLY produce a false answer.  For example,  "NO! (I did not have sex with that woman, Monica Lewinski)"

The polygraph can not get into the CONSCIOUS MIND of the test subject, and thus, can not measure a lie which by definition is a conscious act.

But polygraphers will claim the machine is detecting "DECEPTION".  Well, if it's "deception", that would presume the subject is consciously aware he/she is being deceptive.  But the machine doesn't measure conscious mentation.  Just visceral reactions.

Some polygraphers will just claim that something is "bothering" you about the question.  Which, with a reaction, is by definition is true.  Something is bothering YOUR UNconscious MIND.  But there are lot of things that could be bothering the unconscious which is the seat of one's fantasies.  The unconscious does not know reality from fantasy.   

  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
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Re: It don't make no sense!
Reply #1 - Mar 9th, 2008 at 2:09pm
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"Polyf"

just because you present your same question in a new format doesn't mean you don't "get it."

Now, go to your room and give yourself an ANS response... Grin
  
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Re: It don't make no sense!
Reply #2 - Mar 17th, 2008 at 2:07pm
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The "subconscious" aspect you mention is one thing that I also have a problem with.  What can one do, imagine a brick wall or try to keep your mind blank during the test?  They ask about drugs and I think of the show "Cops."  They ask about espionage and I think of Tom Clancy films.   "Have you ever lied?"  What kind of question is that???  EVERYONE has lied at one time or another!
  
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Re: It don't make no sense!
Reply #3 - Mar 17th, 2008 at 3:25pm
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Indiana73 wrote on Mar 17th, 2008 at 2:07pm:
The "subconscious" aspect you mention is one thing that I also have a problem with.  What can one do, imagine a brick wall or try to keep your mind blank during the test?  They ask about drugs and I think of the show "Cops."  They ask about espionage and I think of Tom Clancy films.   "Have you ever lied?"  What kind of question is that???  EVERYONE has lied at one time or another!


It doesn't matter what questions they ask because you "reaction" to any particular question as well as the lack of a reaction because your reaction to the questions can be due to several factors least of which is a lie. 
POLYGRAPHS DO NOT DETECT LIES AS THE TEST PROCLAIMS !!!!
The poly examiners on here can go on and on talking in circles defending what they do but the above statement IS a FACT.
The test is primarily used to get you to admit things that you may or may not have done. So it is vital for the examiners that the general public belive that this machine can in fact do what it's commonly used name implies "lie detector test". 
So much so has this name been attached to the machine, the examiners have convinced themselves that even though the machine cannot detect lies somehow because soem have done this for so long they can magically detect lies.
What a joke!!
  
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Re: It don't make no sense!
Reply #4 - Mar 17th, 2008 at 3:45pm
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The opinion of the polygrapher as to whether or not one is being deceptive in regards to the question asked, relies upon the assumption that a physiological response, (blood pressure, heart rate, galvanic skin response and breathing rate) is due to the examinees falsely answering the question asked.
  

"Although the degree of reliability of polygraph evidence may depend upon a variety of identifiable factors, there is simply no way to know in a particular case whether a polygraph examiner's Conclusion is accurate, because certain doubts and uncertainties plague even the best polygraph exams."  (Justice Clarence Thomas writing in United States v. Scheffer, 523 U.S. 303, 118 S.Ct. 1261, 140 L.Ed.2d 413, 1998.)
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Re: It don't make no sense!
Reply #5 - Mar 18th, 2008 at 3:17am
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nopolycop wrote on Mar 17th, 2008 at 3:45pm:
The opinion of the polygrapher as to whether or not one is being deceptive in regards to the question asked, relies upon the assumption that a physiological response, (blood pressure, heart rate, galvanic skin response and breathing rate) is due to the examinees falsely answering the question asked.


I like that the "opinion" of the poligrapher and the "assumption" 
These words have no place in facts.
We all have many opinions and assumptions .......
  
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Re: It don't make no sense!
Reply #6 - Mar 18th, 2008 at 3:30am
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     Hi NotGuilty1,

  Food for thought !   Isn't fingerprint evidence "Opinion" evidence ?  They need eleven points of reference to say they have met statistical significance ?  Isn't hair and fiber evidence "Opinion" evidence as well.  In most cases, Medical evidence is that of "Opinion" evidence, as each side has an Doctor with an opposing "opinion" view.   

  You mentioned "Assumptions".  Tell me this then.  Since polygraphs are done in a vacuum, that is an environment free of artificial stimuli, and the questions are reviewed in advance with no surprise questions in a test (No poster here I have read said anything was a surprise), then why the reactivity if not the lie.  What is the other stimulus internally which is not otherwise a constant variable present in the sequence ?  If you say it could be "He's just nervous" that is a worn out rag of an excuse, and would be again a consistent variable.  So identify for me what new variable is it that the test has not accounted for since the commitment to the questions was made in advance and already processed prior to any charts.   


  
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Re: It don't make no sense!
Reply #7 - Mar 18th, 2008 at 3:39am
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       T.M.,

   What I know of polygraph is that it ONLY deals with the concious mind given the examinee has to commit to something which is in his/ her memmory or not.  They don't test the subconcious mind at all.  The measured reactions are not from the subconcious mind, but rather the denial of truth known to the concious mind as reality / history experienced.  By the way, you only speak of half of the equation when you mention an ANS reacation, as there is PNS which provides relief in human physiology.  Shall we say then that deception is occurring in the time frame wherein lack of relief is not occurring as the stimulus takes root / the deception moment is processed.  It is amazing how many experts there are here without a real job, or who screwed themselves out of the one they really wanted with such wonderful knowledge / half knowledge.      
  
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Re: It don't make no sense!
Reply #8 - Mar 18th, 2008 at 3:59am
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TheNoLieGuy4U wrote on Mar 18th, 2008 at 3:30am:
     Hi NotGuilty1,

 Food for thought !   Isn't fingerprint evidence "Opinion" evidence ?  They need eleven points of reference to say they have met statistical significance ?  Isn't hair and fiber evidence "Opinion" evidence as well.  In most cases, Medical evidence is that of "Opinion" evidence, as each side has an Doctor with an opposing "opinion" view.  

 You mentioned "Assumptions".  Tell me this then.  Since polygraphs are done in a vacuum, that is an environment free of artificial stimuli, and the questions are reviewed in advance with no surprise questions in a test (No poster here I have read said anything was a surprise), then why the reactivity if not the lie.  What is the other stimulus internally which is not otherwise a constant variable present in the sequence ?  If you say it could be "He's just nervous" that is a worn out rag of an excuse, and would be again a consistent variable.  So identify for me what new variable is it that the test has not accounted for since the commitment to the questions was made in advance and already processed prior to any charts.  



Well, I am here as many others are, to say that we failed despite being truthfull. 
You are the ones claiming the tests works so don't ask me why the reactions are what they are. You push the test you should be showing the proof that it works.

I am here to say I failed and was truthfull. So I must be crazy because according to you my subconcious mind does not agree with what I know to be truth. I must be really messed up and so are all the others on here that say the same.

OH PLEASE GET OFF IT ALREADY
  
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Re: It don't make no sense!
Reply #9 - Mar 18th, 2008 at 11:07pm
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"notguilty1",

You wrote, "Well, I am here as many others are, to say that we failed despite being truthfull." 

Exactly how many are there on this post who espouse that view?  So far I have experienced about 4 or 5, so called false positives.  Out of the thousands of readers and posters, that is a VERY small percentage...

Further, you wrote, "You are the ones claiming the tests works so don't ask me why the reactions are what they are. You push the test you should be showing the proof that it works."

We do not have to prove anything to YOU.  I and others have gone out of our way to explain how the polygraph works and still, we are demanded to "answer the questions!"  Just because we're not answering questions to your satisfaction in no way proves we are not answering the questions.

Finally, you wrote, "I am here to say I failed and was truthfull. So I must be crazy because according to you my subconcious mind does not agree with what I know to be truth. I must be really messed up and so are all the others on here that say the same."

Yes!  I agree.

Sackett
  
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Re: It don't make no sense!
Reply #10 - Mar 19th, 2008 at 12:43am
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Sackett

There may only 4 or 5 false positives posting at this time. If you care to find out the numbers who have actually posted of their false positives, which I doubt, search all through the boards. There is quite a number. There was quite a number who posted on the website that preceeded this one. The older posters just don't want to read or debate the same old stuff over and over. Polygraphers nor false positives will ever change their minds no matter what proof either side may presents. They probably feel like - why beat a dead horse.

My opinion is polygraphers come hear now solely to discredit George, Gino and this site. They are not presenting anything new. If the information in this site is not presenting any problems to the poly industry, as most of you say, then why continue to be redundant? I believe this has been asked of all of you, many times, and I don't remember reading a straight forward answer. If you remember one, then point me to it. I sometimes suffer from Halfhimers.

There was one polygrapher years ago that I really liked. He posted under the name of Public Servant. I liked him so well that I offered him a moose hunt in Alaska. He stayed so busy he couldn't accept. This guy was a square shooter. However, this was before you guys realized that CMs were a pain in the ass. Sure wish I knew how he was getting along. If you're out there Public Servant, PM me.
  
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Re: It don't make no sense!
Reply #11 - Mar 19th, 2008 at 1:04am
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Twoblock wrote on Mar 19th, 2008 at 12:43am:
Sackett

There may only 4 or 5 false positives posting at this time. If you care to find out the numbers who have actually posted of their false positives, which I doubt, search all through the boards. There is quite a number. There was quite a number who posted on the website that preceeded this one. The older posters just don't want to read or debate the same old stuff over and over. Polygraphers nor false positives will ever change their minds no matter what proof either side may presents. They probably feel like - why beat a dead horse.

My opinion is polygraphers come hear now solely to discredit George, Gino and this site. They are not presenting anything new. If the information in this site is not presenting any problems to the poly industry, as most of you say, then why continue to be redundant? I believe this has been asked of all of you, many times, and I don't remember reading a straight forward answer. If you remember one, then point me to it. I sometimes suffer from Halfhimers.

There was one polygrapher years ago that I really liked. He posted under the name of Public Servant. I liked him so well that I offered him a moose hunt in Alaska. He stayed so busy he couldn't accept. This guy was a square shooter. However, this was before you guys realized that CMs were a pain in the ass. Sure wish I knew how he was getting along. If you're out there Public Servant, PM me.


Of course I agree with you. But as you point out there is no use using logic with these people they will continue thier mantras so that they can continue their "trade".
I simply don't know of any other "profession" that has to come on a web site to defend thier actions.(
I know first hand and so do many others regardless what Sackett says) that poly's do not detect lies. It didn't with me.
Sackett continues to point out that there are so few of us on here. Then why does he spend so much time here.... I think that answer is obvious don't you? Wink

  
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Re: It don't make no sense!
Reply #12 - Mar 19th, 2008 at 6:11am
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notguilty1 wrote on Mar 19th, 2008 at 1:04am:
Twoblock wrote on Mar 19th, 2008 at 12:43am:
Sackett

There may only 4 or 5 false positives posting at this time. If you care to find out the numbers who have actually posted of their false positives, which I doubt, search all through the boards. There is quite a number. There was quite a number who posted on the website that preceeded this one. The older posters just don't want to read or debate the same old stuff over and over. Polygraphers nor false positives will ever change their minds no matter what proof either side may presents. They probably feel like - why beat a dead horse.

My opinion is polygraphers come hear now solely to discredit George, Gino and this site. They are not presenting anything new. If the information in this site is not presenting any problems to the poly industry, as most of you say, then why continue to be redundant? I believe this has been asked of all of you, many times, and I don't remember reading a straight forward answer. If you remember one, then point me to it. I sometimes suffer from Halfhimers.

There was one polygrapher years ago that I really liked. He posted under the name of Public Servant. I liked him so well that I offered him a moose hunt in Alaska. He stayed so busy he couldn't accept. This guy was a square shooter. However, this was before you guys realized that CMs were a pain in the ass. Sure wish I knew how he was getting along. If you're out there Public Servant, PM me.


Of course I agree with you. But as you point out there is no use using logic with these people they will continue thier mantras so that they can continue their "trade".
I simply don't know of any other "profession" that has to come on a web site to defend thier actions.(
I know first hand and so do many others regardless what Sackett says) that poly's do not detect lies. It didn't with me.
Sackett continues to point out that there are so few of us on here. Then why does he spend so much time here.... I think that answer is obvious don't you? Wink



Well, if I could get twoblock and notguilty1 to stop taking warm showers together and looking for a third for their three-some, maybe your attention could be directed to the facts.

I am not here to discredit George, but to add an examiner's perspective to his statements and thoughts. Some of what George reports is true.  I can not deny that.  Some of what he reports and suggests is disinformation and willl get an examinee into trouble during an examination.  I am trying to make the difference clear.

In other words, and repeating myself, I am trying to put a ??? where George and his minions would put an !!!

Your suggestion that we examiner's do not answer your questions, I suggest, you simply do not want to accept the answers we give you. We are not here to give you the answers YOU want, but what is accurate and true, related to polygraph.  You said, "I simply don't know of any other "profession" that has to come on a web site to defend thier actions."  As an explanation, there are few sites which attack a well established profession, then give suggestions as to how to beat it when subjected to it... Why am I here? it IS obvious...

I am not defending polygraph, I'm simply trying to explain and povide free education.  The fact is, you simply do not want to learn.  Don't blame the teacher for the student's ignorance and testing failure, when they want to ignore the text.   

Finally, I am not suggesting that false positives do not occur, they simply do not occur at the rate you and the others posting here would want other, more naive readers to believe.

Sackett
  
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Re: It don't make no sense!
Reply #13 - Mar 19th, 2008 at 2:41pm
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sackett wrote on Mar 19th, 2008 at 6:11am:
[
Your suggestion that we examiner's do not answer your questions, I suggest, you simply do not want to accept the answers we give you. We are not here to give you the answers YOU want, but what is accurate and true, related to polygraph. 
Sackett


Sackett, my ol buddy...

A direct question deserves a direct answer.  For example, if one is interviewing a suspect in the murder of "Fred" and he is asked "Did you murder Fred", and the suspect goes on to say:  "It would have been impossible for me to murder Fred, because first off, I know nothing about guns.  Secondly, my car doesn't run at the moment, and third, I don't even know Fred!"

He never acutally says he didn't murder Fred, and that's a big ol fat CLUE for the investigators.

When a question is asked of a polygrapher on this forum, and the polygrapher won't answer the question directly, that is a CLUE also.  A CLUE that the polygrapher doesn't want to answer the direct question, so he wanders off into a discussion of f-f-f and ANS and whatnot, without actually answering the question.
  

"Although the degree of reliability of polygraph evidence may depend upon a variety of identifiable factors, there is simply no way to know in a particular case whether a polygraph examiner's Conclusion is accurate, because certain doubts and uncertainties plague even the best polygraph exams."  (Justice Clarence Thomas writing in United States v. Scheffer, 523 U.S. 303, 118 S.Ct. 1261, 140 L.Ed.2d 413, 1998.)
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Re: It don't make no sense!
Reply #14 - Mar 19th, 2008 at 3:38pm
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"n.p.c.",

I believe I provided an earlier posting in which I informed "you guys" that while I personally will try to answer most questions given me, there will be some questions that I will not answer.  Reason?  As I stated before, I am not here to help George write a better book or modify his mistakes.  I'm simply trying to offer an alternative, truer account of polygraph than those of fanatical distortions may present to the unsuspecting examinees who review these pages.

Sackett

P.S.  Statement analysis indicates Fred's guilty and I didn't even need to test him... Grin
  
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It don't make no sense!

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