Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) I haveread the book and just need to tie up some loose ends (Read 10463 times)
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I haveread the book and just need to tie up some loose ends
Mar 20th, 2008 at 3:35pm
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My pre-employement poly is next week and I just need to tie up a few loose ends I am still confused on.  I know I employ CM's on the control questions but what if I don't lie on the control questions.  Do I still use CMs if I tell the truth or what?  For example if he asked if i have ever lied to someone in authority and I say yes.....what do I do?  Do I need to lie on purpose for the CM's to work or what?
  
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Re: I haveread the book and just need to tie up some loose ends
Reply #1 - Mar 20th, 2008 at 3:43pm
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If you answer "yes" to a control that is supposed to be answered "no," the polygrapher will ask you for an explanation and try to preclude further admissions and get you to answer "no." For example, if you admit having lied to someone in a position of authority, after asking for a full explanation, your polygrapher might say something like, "We have zero tolerance for lying to a superior officer. I hope this was a one-time occurrence and that you're not in that habit of doing such things. Other than what you told me, did you ever lie to a person in a position of authority?"

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter whether your answer to a control question is truthful or not. The key to passing is to exhibit stronger reactions to the control questions than to the relevant questions. You might want to review Chapters 3 & 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector, which cover these points.
  

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Re: I haveread the book and just need to tie up some loose ends
Reply #2 - Mar 21st, 2008 at 6:51pm
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sniper5252 wrote on Mar 20th, 2008 at 3:35pm:
My pre-employement poly is next week and I just need to tie up a few loose ends I am still confused on.  I know I employ CM's on the control questions but what if I don't lie on the control questions.  Do I still use CMs if I tell the truth or what?  For example if he asked if i have ever lied to someone in authority and I say yes.....what do I do?  Do I need to lie on purpose for the CM's to work or what?


sniper5252,

You want a position of responsibility and authority yet you come here, before your test, to learn how to "beat" the examiner?  Not much integrity being displayed by that decision.

OK, so after you follow George's suggestions (BTW, he's never employed any of the techniques he espouses in order to pass an examination) come on back and advise us how you fared.  BUT, if you fail or are caught trying to embellish your responses, don't bother!  We'll know by the silence...

Try just being truthful, you may actually pass the examination and get the job...

Sackett
  
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Re: I haveread the book and just need to tie up some loose ends
Reply #3 - Mar 21st, 2008 at 9:30pm
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You want a position of responsibility and authority yet you come here, before your test, to learn how to "beat" the examiner?  Not much integrity being displayed by that decision.


It doesn't show any less integrity than polygraphers who knowingly lie, and depend on convincing the test subject of the lie behind the polygraph, and that it is 95-98% accurate.

There is nothing wrong with lying to a LIAR.  Especially, when your career and reputation is on the line.

Incidently, add to the list the polygrapher who tested Gene Simmons on TV the other night.  She boldly claimed the test is "95% accurate".

  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
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Re: I haveread the book and just need to tie up some loose ends
Reply #4 - Mar 21st, 2008 at 10:32pm
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Remember, passing a polygraph means that it is the OPINION of the polygrapher that you are not being deceptive, based upon the ASSUMPTION that your physiological reactions to the relevant questions (or lack there of) are because you told the truth, as compared to the ASSUMPTION that on the control questions, you LIKELY told a little white lie, and exhibited physiological responses to those control questions which exceeded in magnitude the physiological reactions to either the non-relevant or relevant questions.

And, based upon these variables, they claim 95% accuracy?

Sniper, take what Sackett says with a grain of salt.  He refuses to answer direct questions posed to him, but will try to baffle you with psychobabble instead.
  

"Although the degree of reliability of polygraph evidence may depend upon a variety of identifiable factors, there is simply no way to know in a particular case whether a polygraph examiner's Conclusion is accurate, because certain doubts and uncertainties plague even the best polygraph exams."  (Justice Clarence Thomas writing in United States v. Scheffer, 523 U.S. 303, 118 S.Ct. 1261, 140 L.Ed.2d 413, 1998.)
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Re: I haveread the book and just need to tie up some loose ends
Reply #5 - Mar 21st, 2008 at 10:59pm
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First, Sackett.....it isn't that i don't want to tell the truth its that I can't.  If I do then I will be disqualified.  I am pursuing a long time dream and am very close to obtaining it.  So this is the only avenue I have left.  If I could just tell the truth then I would.   

Second,

Thanks to everyone else who responded.  I am going to put to use the CM's I have learned and try my best to pass this "test".  My final question....When I get to the releavant question where I must lie when I answer I will breath as normal as possible but what should my mind be doing.  Thinking about my wife, have a clear mind, what?  Should I try to imagine another question instead....thanks guys.

I only need to lie on one question but should I use Cm's on every control question I recognize?  And with tounge biting should I ease into the bite or just start hard and hold.  I have heard that I don't want to make a huge sudden spike....any thoughts??
  
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Re: I haveread the book and just need to tie up some loose ends
Reply #6 - Mar 22nd, 2008 at 1:07am
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When I get to the relavant question where I must lie ....


You are going to lie to the relevant questions?  For example, "have you ever knowingly disclosed classified information?"  Then you would be a LIAR!  I don't advocate anyone lying to relevant questions.  If you have violated anything the counter intelligence questions test for, then you should not be hired unless you tell them and they hire you anyway!  My beef with the test is that INNOCENT people fail.

My whole problem with the preemployment test is that you can TRUTHFULLY answer the relevant questions, yet fail the test.  If they say you are being "deceptive", even though you answered a relevant question truthfully, do not believe it.  If you answer truthfully, you answered truthfully.  End of argument.

What do you think about.?  Think about anything!   Think about what a joke it all is.   

Your mind speak might go something like this:  "What a joke!  Yeah right dude, I'm telling the truth yet you say I'm lying. Then maybe you should be in a carnival or something!  You're just trying to get me to say something stupid.  Your stupid machine can't tell if I'm lying.  A polygrapher (Wolf) even said so!  Keep on pressing junior, cuz I ain't done nothin!   Gee, I wonder what I'll have for lunch today. That receptionist sure is good looking, wonder if she is free for lunch.  Wish this test would be over soon, I gotta piss.  This polygrapher reminds me of Kramer on Seinfeld.  What a dork!  I wonder if Obama would really pull the troops if elected.  My butt itches!"

« Last Edit: Mar 22nd, 2008 at 1:23am by T.M. Cullen »  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
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Re: I haveread the book and just need to tie up some loose ends
Reply #7 - Mar 22nd, 2008 at 3:30am
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          Sniper5252,

    In reading your posting I have to say that yours appears to be one of the most up front and honest I have seen here.  Rather than being a winer after the fact, you are facing a long wanted promotion or goal, and know that you may in fact not be qualified for it.  My I recommend that you look at whatever it is that you are holding back and deciding to lie about in the concept of time.  If the event(s) are clearly from a different chapter of your life then it may not be held against you as strongly as you perceive.  Second, you may wish to consider if such an admission would ruin your credibility on the witness stand should you have to testify later on a witness stand.  If the answer is NO, then it may be better to take the bull by the horns.  If the answer is YES, then do not be upset or angry if the Examiner does his or her job in Detecting you as such, and be a man about it.  At least you will know you gave it your best shot, and that the Examiner had to do their job as well.  It's not personal, just professional.  Also, please report back in later after your test.  Thanks !!!      
  
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Re: I haveread the book and just need to tie up some loose ends
Reply #8 - Mar 22nd, 2008 at 3:49am
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      NoPolyCop,

   Lately you seem like a hamster in a wheel.  You seem to be hung up on the word OPINION, ART, and ASSUMPTION.  Let me see if I can be of some help.  For example doesn't a cadiologist physician render their medical opinion based quite often on an EKG chart as the person having a certain condition?  Isn't medicine known both as an "Art "and a Science  ?  Might that Doctor, in the best interest of both the patient and the hospital, render such an "opinion"  based on their training, and assume that what they see in their charts leads them to a conclusion. Don't Doctors, Coroners, and others testify to their professional Opinions based on the evidence presented to them as someone trained in that speciality.  Why should polygraph be any different.  You have assumed bias where none can be shown to exist.  Mathamatically polygraph clears more people than it ever fails in the elimination of suspects.  Further, in the pre-employment arena, most people clearly pass their tests.  Doing so does not guarentee a job, but rather has them move into a more well defined pool from which hirings take place after a complete background.   
    From what you write it would seem you are so biased that you can't place common sense definitions of words as they apply to other professions on the polygraph profession, so are you really capable of having a "Discussion" on it.  Get the emotion out of it, reduce it down to real world concepts, and judge them on that.
  
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Re: I haveread the book and just need to tie up some loose ends
Reply #9 - Mar 22nd, 2008 at 3:57am
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sniper5252 wrote on Mar 21st, 2008 at 10:59pm:
First, Sackett.....it isn't that i don't want to tell the truth its that I can't.  If I do then I will be disqualified.  I am pursuing a long time dream and am very close to obtaining it.  So this is the only avenue I have left.  If I could just tell the truth then I would.  

Second,

Thanks to everyone else who responded.  I am going to put to use the CM's I have learned and try my best to pass this "test".  My final question....When I get to the releavant question where I must lie when I answer I will breath as normal as possible but what should my mind be doing.  Thinking about my wife, have a clear mind, what?  Should I try to imagine another question instead....thanks guys.

I only need to lie on one question but should I use Cm's on every control question I recognize?  And with tounge biting should I ease into the bite or just start hard and hold.  I have heard that I don't want to make a huge sudden spike....any thoughts??


sniper,

withdraw now before you screw yourself forever and find yourself a full fledged member of this board, repeatedly harping about the ills of polygraph.  The very test that will more than likely prevent you from getting your dream job.  You sir, are entitled to nothing.  

If you are attempting to enter a field of law enforcement or intelligence, then all I have to say is you are not qualified (by your own admission) and you are rationalizing your means to obtain an end.  That very rationalizing indicates clearly to me that you do not deserve the position you believe youself to be entitled to.  

You do whatever your low ethical standards dictate; however, if you are successful in getting past your examiner and hiring board and based on what you have said here, I predict your career will be short and repeatedly plagued with many problems.  All of which will no doubt, be someone else's fault.  Reason?  You do not have the ethicals or morality to maintain a position of trust.  Your co-workers will see it immediately and so will your supervisory chain of command.  Sorry, with your attitude your failure is forthcoming. 

Sackett
  
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Re: I haveread the book and just need to tie up some loose ends
Reply #10 - Mar 22nd, 2008 at 4:05am
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"n.p.c.",

well, there you go again...!

What question have I refused to answer?  

Stop the hyperbole rhetoric... What psychobabble?   

Your postings make you look weak and ignorant. Embarrassed

Sackett
  
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Re: I haveread the book and just need to tie up some loose ends
Reply #11 - Mar 22nd, 2008 at 4:13am
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T.M. Cullen wrote on Mar 21st, 2008 at 9:30pm:
Quote:
You want a position of responsibility and authority yet you come here, before your test, to learn how to "beat" the examiner?  Not much integrity being displayed by that decision.


It doesn't show any less integrity than polygraphers who knowingly lie, and depend on convincing the test subject of the lie behind the polygraph, and that it is 95-98% accurate.

There is nothing wrong with lying to a LIAR.  Especially, when your career and reputation is on the line.

Incidently, add to the list the polygrapher who tested Gene Simmons on TV the other night.  She boldly claimed the test is "95% accurate".



Mr Cullen,

when "sniper" fails to get the job, and I believe he will if applying with a professional agency with professional examiners, either due to noncooperation or outright failure, and since he's planning on lying about his past, I hope you will feel the same self-righteousness you espouse here.  Because, all you will have done is to convince another person (albeit unethical in nature) to screw himself, when he could possibly work his way into what he wants through hard work and honesty.

Sleep well,

Sackett

P.S.  Make sure you get sniper's address.  He'll need an application for the Anti-Polygraph Whiney Ass Club real soon.
  
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Re: I haveread the book and just need to tie up some loose ends
Reply #12 - Mar 22nd, 2008 at 9:32am
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....when he could possibly work his way into what he wants through hard work and honesty.


Honesty?  If he comes up false positive, he would have been honest, yet failed, like many who have attested on this board.

If the examiner tries to assure him the machine is detecting "deception", even though he/she knows the machine can't do that, then the examiner is being a liar and dishonest.   

Honesty should be a two-way street.

TC
  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
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Re: I haveread the book and just need to tie up some loose ends
Reply #13 - Mar 22nd, 2008 at 9:38am
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Quote:
Your postings make you look weak and ignorant.


As opposed to yours, which make you look pompous and idiotic.
  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
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Re: I haveread the book and just need to tie up some loose ends
Reply #14 - Mar 22nd, 2008 at 9:39am
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I meant that as a compliment.
  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
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I haveread the book and just need to tie up some loose ends

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