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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) took the test (Read 72764 times)
Skeptic
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Re: took the test
Reply #60 - Dec 9th, 2005 at 7:16am
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ODIN wrote on Dec 9th, 2005 at 2:18am:


EXELENT POST!

I like this guy.

Well one state down in proving my statments, a few more to go.


You seem rather selective in your evidence, Odin.  I'll note that Twoblock also mentioned Louisiana, which does polygraph LE and (from the anecdotal evidence, which seems to be all anyone has come up with thus far) has serious corruption problems.

But if you can't prove your claims, just say so.  Others have already demonstrated more honesty by admitting they can't prove whether or not they lied about their polygraph experiences--and frankly, you should have a far easier time of proving your claims, if you can.  By your own standards, it's time for you to "put up or shut up".

How about it, Odin?  Going to come clean?
« Last Edit: Dec 9th, 2005 at 7:35am by Skeptic »  
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Re: took the test
Reply #61 - Dec 9th, 2005 at 8:19am
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It's your turn, Odin.
  
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Re: took the test
Reply #62 - Dec 9th, 2005 at 8:55am
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Odin,

  what i find is that you want us to believe you, but when asked any kind of question you get hostile in answering us.  should we just take every thing you say without question?   
  you being an examiner puts most of us on the defensive, we need for you to prove to us that polygraphy works as you tout.   
   the majority of posts here are anti-polygraph as you well know.  the majority of posts come from an eye opening view of how the polygraph have, has, or about to ruin a career, even someone's life.   
  so its really your turn to run with the ball, we just look for proof of what you say, not just a one sided emotional view.  its your floor now.
  
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Re: took the test
Reply #63 - Dec 9th, 2005 at 10:03am
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ODIN, 

I must say never have I seen a message thread go from 1 to 5 pages in such a short time. Congrats on setting some kind of record.  I am kinda miffed that you didn't see fit enough to mention me as one who has been more than gracious and fair. But then agian you have been up to your neck in Alligators looking to have you for dinner. Again I did say beware in an earlier message. I have been being civil and reading your posts because you have been up front and honest. 

Now lets get down to business.

1. THe polygraph is not voluntary !! either in Law Enforcement or Pre-employment. In law enforcement using your molester model. ANd believe me I have no love of these lowlife bottom feeders. But none the less all are entitled to far treatment under the law. IF he refuses the test, bang,  back to jail, if he is found DI, bang, back to jail, if he is hung with a false positive for what ever reason, its (you guessed it) bang,  back to jail.
This person is left very little room for error. Now if you get him to admit to doing something again, then he is more than welcome to (you guessed it) bang,  back to jail.Hence why this person looks to alternatives to beat the box. BUt if you do get him, feel free to screw him  over as much as possible, Lock him up and throw away the key, staking this scumbag to a red ant mound might be highly entertaining too. 

And refuse to take a polygraph in a criminal investigation is like branding yourself, guilty even though your not.

For employment, if you don't take the polygraph, you don't get the job. And the consequences of dealing with a false positive by a Federal or State agency has lifelong consequences. You say your fair, and I will give you the benefit of the doubt. But I have little or no want to gamble with my intergrity and honor at the hands of a polygrapher, that considers him/herself as judge, jury and executioner.  Had too many of my people denied there jobs because of polygraphy. Smart people need to be filling the jobs watching out and defending  this country. And not being reclassified because a polygraph branded them for the rest of there life. Every time we lose a person to a machine that has no scientific basis is truly wrong, all the money, training, and potential benefits are gone. And I hate wasting money. 

2. You have said that you have caught countermeasure users, I can understand why with the Doug Williams rag. But how many have you caught with the book from this website ? And interesting number based on your work record. And how do you deal with folks, that are trained in counter interrogation techniques. If you have ever even run into anyone like that. THere are quite a few of us out here by the way. 

3. You have your own rules and tests that you follow for each situation. How do you handle those folks that are even above countermeasure training. Who know deep down in there souls that the machine doesn't work without the big three stimulators being used. SUch as a) No Fear or Anxiety b) No buy in to the accuracy of the polygraph  c) no consequences .
With out these three stimulators the box just produces a bunch of lines.  Because I do believe that no matter how you may want to try various stim tests. They simply can't be reached because in their minds they are in control and the polygraph is a non entity.

Psychology works again as a double edged sword.

Regards
  
Theory into Reality !!
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Re: took the test
Reply #64 - Dec 9th, 2005 at 10:54am
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Quote:
Smokey,

Note also that the experience of states such as Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, New Jersey, and Oregon, where law enforcement agencies are prohibited by law from giving lie detector "tests" to applicants, demonstrates that the polygraph is not a necessity.

 
I agree 110%, but since it appearently serves as a wonderful pre-employment tool for the other states, ploygraph screening should be emplied for every elected official and government worker (especially public school employees).  Quote from TLBTLD: "After all, our national security is at stake"

Quote:
ODIN WROTE:       Lets also note that most of those states, have high rates of police officers abusing their power, alchoholisim, corruption and drug addiction when compaired against some states that do alow it.   


I am currently working in the private sector and in my state, most, if not all, LE agencies use some form of "lie detector."  I know a numerous amout of respectable cops who drink like sailors during a hurricane.  As long as it don't interfere with their jobs or behavior on/off duty, who gives a rats ass? Last time I checked, drinking was legal.   
 
  As for the abuse of power, the only power abusers I see are the polygraphers (not all, but a good many) who are branding honest potential LE officers liars and the background investigators who are too lazy to do REAL investigatory work and want to depend on a BOX to appraise the honesty of applicants..............And after all, who really gives a crap if someone took a hit from a joint 5-10 years ago...............If they want to find out who has done drugs, they can pluck a hair and check it for any drug in the past 7 years.

  As for PO's who are "stoners, " thats the point of Random Drug Testing in the work place.  There are many realistic ways of getting to the truth without use of a pottygraph

  Specify what "Abuse of Power" is.  Is it maliciously activating blue lights to get through a crowded intersection for the purpose of pulling into a 7-11 to get a coke and a can of skoal?  I'VE SEEN THAT, AND MY STATE PLOYGRAPHS!!   
  Is it stopping an attractive law-abiting motorist just to see some titties?  I'VE SEEN THAT OCCUR TOO, AND MY STATE PLOYGRAPHS!!!
  OR, is it when an off-duty officer goes out to a bar, has 20 beers and gets behind the wheel of a car and drives home (or elsewhere) the same day or day before he locks up someone for DWI who has had less than 7 beers, but happens to be a little tipsy???   WOW. THAT HAPPENS IN MY STATE TOO!!!!!....................................AND MY STATE PLOYGRAPHS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  
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Re: took the test
Reply #65 - Dec 9th, 2005 at 1:41pm
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ODIN wrote on Dec 9th, 2005 at 9:39am:


OK I will say this only one more time and then I am done with you.

Politics, does have a part in this converstation, because you want to out law polygraph.

I don't know if you know this, but they make the laws. Don't say you want to out law polygraph if you don't want to discuss the personal motivations self serving elected officals that you count on to pass the law.

Political quips are only insulting if they are true and you guys make claims that you were telling the truth with no fact to back it up.


Sigh.  Well, I really did try.  The administrator of the site has the final say, after all, as to whether or not what you're posting is relevant to the subject at hand.  To my mind it's clearly not, and it's obvious that you lack the courage to carry on a discussion of the polygraph without straying into side issues and ad hominems.

As for me, well, if I wanted to argue with the "leading lights" of right wing extremism, I'd go to Free Republic.  In fact, it's how I've spent the majority of my time online for the last decade or so.  However, I'll note that:

- Promoting effective security measures, and eschewing wasteful, snake-oil efforts are conservative values
- Promoting individual liberties and opposing an overbearing, intrusive government are conservative values.

These values argue for the elimination of the polygraph.  But then, conservatism ain't what it used to be, so I can understand why you'd not get this.

Quote:
The Drug test thing doesn't fly. It is so much more easy to beat a drug test than a polygraph. I am not saying there is not false positives.


The main difference, of course, is that drug tests actually measure what they're supposed to measure, and are used as such.  Polygraphs don't measure lies, yet they're used that way.

Quote:
One of these days I hope to be experianced enough to take the so called challenge. But how would I be assured that if I do catch countermeasures Gorge won't lie and say "I did not", and golly gee I guess I will just have to take his word for it.


This can easily be controlled-for.  Typical scientific study stuff -- you don't have to "just trust him".

Quote:
On top of that if someone were to take the challenge I would hope that one condition would be if the person gets caught in counter measures, ownership of antipolygraph.org and all rights should be surendered to that examiner and Gorge should offer a press release that he got caught by polygraph and it is valid.


To my mind, that's a bit extreme, given the overall weight of scientific evidence that says the polygraph isn't reliable. However, I would expect the results to be posted here for all to see.  I suppose it's up to Mr. Maschke as to how he would handle that.

Thus far, no polygrapher has had the guts to even try the challenge, despite it being outstanding for more than two years.  I'd guessing you guys have more to lose than Mr. Maschke, and wouldn't be surprised if, upon deciding to take up the challenge, other polygraphers discourage you from doing so.

Quote:
I am discussing an issue you just want to twist words, insult, yell and throw fits because I won't blindly follow, and don't expect you to blindly follow me.


So you say.  Yet, you can't resist the ad hominems, it seems.

Quote:
I have shown I am willing to listen. only you have show your unwillingness of inablity to to keep an open mind.


Saying it doesn't make it so.  Your posts speak eloquently enough as to your approach to this discussion.

Quote:
I wonder is the 3 cops I helped put on the streets today feel I ruined their lives?


Congratulations to them.  I hope they told you the truth, and I hope the ones you haven't passed actually lied.  But I wouldn't bet on either, without outside evidence.
« Last Edit: Dec 9th, 2005 at 6:42pm by Skeptic »  
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Re: took the test
Reply #66 - Dec 9th, 2005 at 6:38pm
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Odin,

   these threads seems to have answered all the things you don't want to tell us.  in the future, know that what sustains a debate are facts, not just feelings.  you've told us you are fair and good and to trust you, but you haven't given us anything to go by.  trust is to be built, not given.
  
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Re: took the test
Reply #67 - Dec 9th, 2005 at 6:45pm
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Odin,

   these threads seems to have answered all the things you don't want to tell us.  in the future, know that what sustains a debate are facts, not just feelings.  you've told us you are fair and good and to trust you, but you haven't given us anything to go by.  trust is to be built, not given.


GD,
Well put.  I'll readily admit that all my contact with polygraphers (both on this board and off) has greatly colored my views of them as a whole.  I think I could count the number of known-honest (and not proven dishonest) ones on one hand and without using four of five fingers.

Rather, the vast majority of the time they seem to have absolutely no problem with bald-faced lies.  It almost seems a preferred method for dealing with others.

The entire polygraph profession is built on the idea of "just trusting" polygraphers, from the polygraph session itself to whether or not polygraphs work in general and should be used.  And so far, what I've seen has solidly convinced me that such trust, to say the least, isn't warranted.

Perhaps, instead of challenging others to "prove" their honesty, Odin should consider how he can do the same.  Considering his colleagues, he's starting from a bit of a deficit.
  
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Re: took the test
Reply #68 - Dec 10th, 2005 at 1:12am
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Skeptic wrote:
Quote:
Thus far, no polygrapher has had the guts to even try the challenge, despite it being outstanding for more than two years.  I'd guessing you guys have more to lose than Mr. Maschke, and wouldn't be surprised if, upon deciding to take up the challenge, other polygraphers discourage you from doing so.


I agree. Moreover, if the challenge is done with just any polygrapher, and he goes down in flames, the polygraph community will surely attempt to hang its hat on the weak “examiner inexperience” argument. 

For this reason, Drew was very careful in the structure of his challenge. Please note the second to last sentence:
Quote:
  I would suggest that the polygraph examiners participating come from the ranks of federal polygraph instructors or operators, leading civilian polygraphers or any other group whose credentials and experience would be deemed impeccable in polygraph circles.


Quote:
All the psychological experts I see being quoted in the reading room, have never even run a test. They know nothing of polygraph other than what they get from a book.


John Furedy has never conducted a test? Drew Richardson has never conducted a test? David Lykken has never conducted a test? There may be places that you can structure your arguments upon made-up facts. This is not one of them.

You admit that you need to get more experience before taking the challenge—I’d say that it’s safe from that to say that all three of these esteemed individuals have each conducted more polygraph “tests” than you have. 

Quote:
There are many points that I have made that have gone unreplied to because you focus on only what you can attack, rather than a good point.


If anyone is guilty of this behavior, it is you. For example, you were called out numerous times to support the statement that you made that cops in states that polygraph are less corrupt than those in states that do not. 

Numerous posters asked you to back that up with some facts. We’re still waiting.
  
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Re: took the test
Reply #69 - Dec 10th, 2005 at 1:41am
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ODIN wrote on Dec 10th, 2005 at 12:46am:


You give yourself away.

You calling me a lier is like the pot calling the kettel black.

I have been trying to prove my honesty and integraty. However at every turn I am attacked and forced to defend myself. I don't respond emotionaly to "yea, how does it feel", because you made me care less that you were branded a lier. I am willing to bet you did lie and are just made because you got caught.

The only lier between the two of us is you. I pass all my polygraphs and I had to take two before I even went to the school. You failed yours, and your bitter.

You let these emotions bleed over, had project your hostility onto others you don't even know as a result.


"The entire polygraph profession is built on the idea of "just trusting" polygraphers, from the polygraph session itself to whether or not polygraphs work in general and should be used.  And so far, what I've seen has solidly convinced me that such trust, to say the least, isn't warranted.

Perhaps, instead of challenging others to "prove" their honesty, Odin should consider how he can do the same.  Considering his colleagues, he's starting from a bit of a deficit"

This has made it clear to me that I am waisting my time here. Anything I say no matter how well researched or right will ever be thought about.

There are many points that I have made that have gone unreplied to because you focus on only what you can attack, rather than a good point. 

I haven't seen a response from Gorge either, I am willing to bet if an examiner steps up to his so called challenge he would never risk his crusade. If you all are so very conifident that what you use works the step up to the first examiner that steps up and offer up antipolygraph.org and all the rights up as a prize. I am willing to be someone will.

After my reseach in counter measures is done and I have more experaince, I will step up. Only to stop this jibber jabber.

Don't tell me the results will be posted on the sight, because they either won't be posted or will be posted with coments about it being "invalid Voo Doo" any way. I know when I am ready and step up. I will put My license on the table and Gorge should put everything on the table, then we will see who comes up with a royal flush.

In the mean time I see that I'm waisting energy here. I will reply to a few mesages that I haven't gotten around to and after that you won't hear from me untill I am ready to call your guru out on the carpet. I will delete my profile and watch these boards to learn.

To the Gentlemen on this board I hold no ill will and it has been a pleasure. I won't have my words or intentions manipulated by people how have become below me.

To the others, I won't be responding to any fits of rage about this post. It is not worth my time. Your next posts are going to be telling.

I know you will say 'see we made him run away, he is just another one of them" 

I am not running away, I am walking away from a conversation from the deaf, blind and dumb that has yeilded and aparently will yeild nothing. 

The old addage is true. It takes more a man to walk away from a fight.

In the end there is only the truth, and the truth will set you free.

The gauntlet has been thrown down. It will be intresting to see the back stepping. Put antipolygraph.org and the rights up. Put up or shut up.

peace out



As I have said in the past.  The polygraph is a good interrogation "tool" in criminal specific settings.  However, it is my belief that is has no place in an employment setting.  The type of test is too broad based leaving the very real possiblity for the examinee to continue to think on a particular subject while answering completely unrelated questions thusly "tweeking" the needles.  Do I believe the polygraph works as proposed?  Yes, but only for those examinees who believe it does and subsequently provide an admission or confirmation deceit.  I do not believe polygraphs work for even slightly informed examinees.  Do I believe in countermeasures?  Not for myself, especially without the ability to attempt them while "hooked-up" and working with a polygraph examiner. Do I think polygraph has a place in monitoring of convicted sex offenders?  No, it is my opinion that there is no need for such if laws were in place which dealt fair justice to such persons (life, no parole).

In all honesty I am not sure quite what to make of your motivations in posting.  The first posts seem genuine to find out what it is that makes the anti-polgraph community tick in an attempt to better your methods for administering exams.  The later posts appear as though you decided to take your ball and go home when your writings were not readily agreed with and taken at face value.  I will give you this, you held back for quite a while on some of the less than polite and extremely inappropriate replies.  I too wish some of those rants could be ignored and I understand your frustration.  However, you must acknowledge that a great many of the posts in your direction were civil even though they were not in agreement with your position.  I hope you will come back despite some of the more rantful posters.

regards
  
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Re: took the test
Reply #70 - Dec 10th, 2005 at 3:27am
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ODIN wrote on Dec 10th, 2005 at 12:46am:


You give yourself away.

You calling me a lier is like the pot calling the kettel black.


I haven't called you, in particular, a liar, and you have no evidence, nor even any reason to suspect, that I've lied to you or anyone on this board.

I did say I felt you weren't being honest, however, when you said you were here with an open mind, then proceeded to attack those around your for disagreeing with you and make irrelevant, insulting comments.  I also noted that in my experience, polygraphers don't tend to be honest.

If you're going to quote me, at least quote me accurately.

Quote:
I have been trying to prove my honesty and integraty. However at every turn I am attacked and forced to defend myself. I don't respond emotionaly to "yea, how does it feel", because you made me care less that you were branded a lier. I am willing to bet you did lie and are just made because you got caught.


I also haven't made any claims to you regarding my polygraph experiences, and am very willing to bet (based upon your statements) that you haven't bothered to go back and read what I've written about them in prior posts.

Quote:
The only lier between the two of us is you. I pass all my polygraphs and I had to take two before I even went to the school. You failed yours, and your bitter.


So now you're inventing stuff about me out of whole cloth (now I allegedly failed a polygraph, according to you) and yet you say I'm a liar?

I've never claimed, to you or anyone else, that I've ever "failed" a polygraph.

Quote:
You let these emotions bleed over, had project your hostility onto others you don't even know as a result.


I have a personal dislike of polygraphers thanks to my experiences with them.  My main sentiment, though, is that I dislike illogic and dishonesty, and that's basically all I've seen from polygraphers--with a very few notable exceptions.

Quote:
This has made it clear to me that I am waisting my time here. Anything I say no matter how well researched or right will ever be thought about.


You've said this several times, and yet you keep posting.  Are you waiting for people to beg you to stay?

Here's an idea: quit attacking others, quit reacting to disagreement like you've been insulted, and debate people honestly.
« Last Edit: Dec 10th, 2005 at 3:49am by Skeptic »  
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Re: took the test
Reply #71 - Dec 10th, 2005 at 4:04am
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Thought this might go nicely with the conversation concerning polygraph use in the employment selection process for law enforcement.   

A Virginia state trooper on the job for a little over two months is locked up in a Newport News jail, accused of having sex with two fourteen-year old girls. 25 year-old Juan Carlos Zaragoza was arrested at his home yesterday morning in Fredericksburg. He's charged with three felony counts of illegal carnal knowledge with a fourteen-year old. The alleged incidents occurred before he joined the agency. Zaragoza graduated from the state police basic training session in October and was in the final phases of on  the job training while assigned to the department's Fredericksburg office. He faces up to thirty years in prison if convicted of the charges. Zaragoza has been suspended from his job without pay until the cases are resolved.

The full story can be found on dailypress.com, click on  "News" and then "Peninsula."         

***It's important to note that all Virginia state trooper candidates must submit to a polygraph test BEFORE moving on to the background investigation phase in the hiring process.
  
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Re: took the test
Reply #72 - Dec 10th, 2005 at 4:27am
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Skeptic wrote on Dec 10th, 2005 at 3:27am:


I haven't called you, in particular, a liar, and you have no evidence, nor even any reason to suspect, that I've lied to you or anyone on this board.

I did say I felt you weren't being honest, however, when you said you were here with an open mind, then proceeded to attack those around your for disagreeing with you.  I also noted that in my experience, polygraphers don't tend to be honest.

If you're going to quote me, at least quote me accurately.


I also haven't made any claims to you regarding my polygraph experiences, and am very willing to bet (based upon your statements) that you haven't bothered to go back and read what I've written about them in prior posts.


So now you're inventing stuff about me out of whole cloth (now I allegedly failed a polygraph, according to you) and yet you say I'm a liar?

I've never claimed, to you or anyone else, that I've ever "failed" a polygraph.


I have a personal dislike of polygraphers thanks to my experiences with them.  My main sentiment, though, is that I dislike illogic and dishonesty, and that's basically all I've seen from polygraphers--with a very few notable exceptions.


You've said this several times, and yet you keep posting.  Are you waiting for people to beg you to stay?

Here's an idea: quit attacking others, quit reacting to disagreement like you've been insulted, and debate people honestly.


You have no intent to debate honestly yourself. I can only think of two persons who have taken an honest debate.

Your dislike is more like hate my little friend, and no I can care less now if people want me to stay or go. 

I can't believe that most of you wouldn't even advocate polygraphing child molesters (with a few exceptions).
That made me sick. That is also when I relized there is no logic amoung the ones who defending the rights of people that attack children.

I am willing to bet you would not feel that way if some one the diddled your children was going on probation.

By the way, the convicted sex offender does have the choice when he sings the probation terms agreement at conviction. 

Polygraph 
Sex Offender Treatment
Register
Stay away from all children

or 

Go to Prison

see there are two options. what do you call two options?

AH a choice.

Pre employment

take the poly and phych

or

get a job some where else

or find another vocation.

wow three choices


persons charged with a crime

take the test with a police examiner (bad idea to do first)

Take the test with a private examiner (good idea)

take a test with both private examiner / police examiner in that order. (Exelent Idea if you pass the first test, and may very well save your hide)

Fight the case based on the facts. The Cops and the DA will make sure to have the cards stacked against you there.

wow
1
2
3
4
choices AH AH AH

Bottom line some have said there is no chioce in taking a polygraph.

I have laid out the choices. Debate that one has no choices. I will enjoy your response

OK you never failed a poly, so you say, something I'll just have to take you on your word I guess, as your word is all I have. So take your "dislike" and stop projecting it on me. 

You are one of the people in here that set me on a war path, and I bet that is what you wanted all along.

You say debate fair, OK tell me what you think is fair debate so I can play by your rules that you live by.

Better yet don't, you'll only change them once I make a point you will have to agree with.

I don't see anyone step up to the plate with the chalenge for antipolygraph.org and its rights.

guess the counter mesures don't work good emough to risk it all.

I see alot of excuses and double talk. I see alot of stone walling, I see alot of misdirection.

I have intended on responding to each well intended question, and have responded some. Others I can't get to because i am forced to respond to verbal masterbation like yours. (take it how you want)

I am amazed how one sided everything is in here.

I have answered questions.

I have even agreed to a few of your views.

I have been Far more open minded then most in here. I have been warned when I came in here that it was going to be like this, both in public forum and private message by someone I know.

I was hoping these warnings would be wrong, they weren't. OK, well now I am responding to what I am given. Clearly you can't handle it, because I bet no one ever told some of you that you were as closed minded as I did and prove it.

Go/stay, I can do either or. The only begging I will hear some day is "Please don't take my web site". Because it is my mission now to not only make polygraph commonly admissable, but to take that chalenge and take this web site. If I don't I will give up my license and by then I will be bigger than Backster or Reid. That is my Goal.
  
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Re: took the test
Reply #73 - Dec 10th, 2005 at 4:30am
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polyfool wrote on Dec 10th, 2005 at 4:04am:
Thought this might go nicely with the conversation concerning polygraph use in the employment selection process for law enforcement.  

A Virginia state trooper on the job for a little over two months is locked up in a Newport News jail, accused of having sex with two fourteen-year old girls. 25 year-old Juan Carlos Zaragoza was arrested at his home yesterday morning in Fredericksburg. He's charged with three felony counts of illegal carnal knowledge with a fourteen-year old. The alleged incidents occurred before he joined the agency. Zaragoza graduated from the state police basic training session in October and was in the final phases of on  the job training while assigned to the department's Fredericksburg office. He faces up to thirty years in prison if convicted of the charges. Zaragoza has been suspended from his job without pay until the cases are resolved.

The full story can be found on dailypress.com, click on  "News" and then "Peninsula."        

***It's important to note that all Virginia state trooper candidates must submit to a polygraph test BEFORE moving on to the background investigation phase in the hiring process.


I would like to see the applicant packet, chart and video of the polygraph before I make judgement. I want to see all the FACTS before I judge. Something went wrong somewhere or he didn't do it. There is no way something like that would have gotten past me.
  
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mustbaliar
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Re: took the test
Reply #74 - Dec 10th, 2005 at 4:33am
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ODIN wrote on Dec 10th, 2005 at 4:30am:


I would like to see the applicant packet, chart and video of the polygraph before I make judgement. I want to see all the FACTS before I judge. Something went wrong somewhere or he didn't do it. There is no way something like that would have gotten past me.


LOL.  Good luck to you, Odin.
  
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