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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) perm reject if you fail this state police poly (Read 19937 times)
Erik Gustafson
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perm reject if you fail this state police poly
May 20th, 2004 at 4:12pm
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IF YOU FAIL THE VERMONT STATE POLICE POLYGRAPH YOU WILL BE TOTALLY DISBARRED FROM EMPLOYMENT EVEN IF YOU ASK TO HAVE IT REVIEWED I WENT UP FOR A POLYGRAPH INTERVIEW AND THE POLYGRAPHER FAILED ME ON CONTROL QUESTIONS AND SAID HE WAS GOING TO MY INTERNAL AFFAIRS UNIT ABOUT IT{I AM A OUT OF STATE POLICE OFFICER] I WENT TO THE DIRECTOR OF THE STATE POLICE AND RECENTLY GOT A RESPONSE FOR THE HEAD OF THE POLYGRAPH UNIT THAT STATES THAT I AM PERMANTELY REJECTED FROM
EMPOLYMENT WITH THEM AND THE POLYGRAPHER DENIES EVER BRINGING UP I.A. WHAT GIVES????? E-MAIL ME AT snowstud98@hotmail.com  Erik :
  
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bildobaggins
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Re: perm reject if you fail this state police poly
Reply #1 - Jun 3rd, 2011 at 5:05am
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Same crap happened to me recently .I didn't fail but it was inconclusive and he didn't pass me. He said my breathing was to erratic and my bodies responses were not normal. Granted I was controlling my breathing and thinking crazy thoughts on control questions. It was funny he did everything I read in the book from the stim number test to the chair with wheels and even explaining the polygraph as a machine holyer than god. And when I signed the form at the end after I made a big stink becuaze he said I was controlling my blood presure...give me a break guy. But I didn't sign the part that said "I do not want a copy of the test" and he goes oh right here you forgot one." And then I explained the question to him. There tricky and even though I didn't pass I beat the asshole. They said that after review I may be able to re start the whole process next year..fuck them.im.never taking another one. Questions about sex with my girlfriend, personal questions about family.  Completely un needed if you can't judge someones character after a oral board what's the point..just do the poly first and save all the trouble..
  
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Bill_Brown
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Re: perm reject if you fail this state police poly
Reply #2 - Jun 3rd, 2011 at 9:23am
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He said my breathing was to erratic and my bodies responses were not normal. Granted I was controlling my breathing and thinking crazy thoughts on control questions.

There tricky and even though I didn't pass I beat the asshole.


You did not beat anything, you got caught using counter measures. 
  
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Sergeant1107
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Re: perm reject if you fail this state police poly
Reply #3 - Jun 3rd, 2011 at 3:01pm
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Bill_Brown wrote on Jun 3rd, 2011 at 9:23am:
You did not beat anything, you got caught using counter measures.†


I think if he had failed due to countermeasure usage then it could be accurately said that he was "caught" using countermeasures.

Since he was given an inconclusive, it seems much more likely that the polygraph operator simply guessed correctly that the subject was using countermeasures but was unable to prove it. 

That, of course, leads to the inevitable conclusion that countermeasure "detection" is often, if not always, simply a guess on the part of the polygraph operator.  How often do they guess correctly?  At least some of the time, as evidenced by the above-referenced post.  How often are they incorrect?

More importantly, why are they guessing at all if the polygraph procedure for detecting deception is purportedly a scientific process?
  

Lorsque vous utilisez un argumentum ad hominem, tout le monde sait que vous Ítes intellectuellement faillite.
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Bill_Brown
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Re: perm reject if you fail this state police poly
Reply #4 - Jun 3rd, 2011 at 5:47pm
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Sergeant,

As an examiner, I do assign the term Inconclusive to an examination where I have observed countermeasure usage.  The problem examinees have when using counter measures is the inability to stop reactions to relevant issue questions while creating reactions to control questions.  When scored the score is called inconclusive.  We generally do not say "Counter Measures were used", we simply say the exam is inconclusive and question the individual about breathing and blood pressure being out of the normal range.
  
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stefano
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Re: perm reject if you fail this state police poly
Reply #5 - Jun 3rd, 2011 at 6:37pm
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Bill_Brown wrote on Jun 3rd, 2011 at 5:47pm:
where I have observed countermeasure usage

Please step up to the countermeasure challenge and prove that you can do this. I say you have no idea when someone is properly using countermeasures.
  
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Bill_Brown
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Re: perm reject if you fail this state police poly
Reply #6 - Jun 3rd, 2011 at 6:52pm
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Bill_Brown wrote on Jun 3rd, 2011 at 5:47pm:
where I have observed countermeasure usage

Please step up to the countermeasure challenge and prove that you can do this. I say you have no idea when someone is properly using countermeasures.


The term "Properly using countermeasures" is the key.  If you have extensive knowledge regarding polygraph. physiology and psychology you may be able to "properly" use countermeasures and not be "detected".  Also practice with an examiner would be helpful.  Polygraph is not 100% accurate, it is about 86% on screening examinations IF the examiner is properly trained and experienced.  The 86% comes from field studies and lab studies. 

It is my personal opinion polygraph should never be used as a stand alone test that disqualifies an applicant.  There should always be other information developed after a failed polygraph to support disqualification. 

  
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stefano
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Re: perm reject if you fail this state police poly
Reply #7 - Jun 3rd, 2011 at 7:08pm
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BB

I agree that haphazard attempts at countermeasures would present as chart anomalies which an examiner could say invalidates the collected data. I would not term this activity as a countermeasure, but rather an attempt at sabotage.

Whenever I refer to countermeasures, I refer to properly deployed countermeasures; you are correct, it is a skill requiring refinement and practice.
  
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depressed
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Re: perm reject if you fail this state police poly
Reply #8 - Jun 3rd, 2011 at 11:31pm
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Bill_Brown wrote on Jun 3rd, 2011 at 6:52pm:
Quote:
Bill_Brown wrote on Jun 3rd, 2011 at 5:47pm:
where I have observed countermeasure usage

Please step up to the countermeasure challenge and prove that you can do this. I say you have no idea when someone is properly using countermeasures.


The term "Properly using countermeasures" is the key.† If you have extensive knowledge regarding polygraph. physiology and psychology you may be able to "properly" use countermeasures and not be "detected".† Also practice with an examiner would be helpful.† Polygraph is not 100% accurate, it is about 86% on screening examinations IF the examiner is properly trained and experienced.† The 86% comes from field studies and lab studies.

It is my personal opinion polygraph should never be used as a stand alone test that disqualifies an applicant.† There should always be other information developed after a failed polygraph to support disqualification.†





BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA- but you keep on believing that propaganda.
  
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Bill_Brown
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Re: perm reject if you fail this state police poly
Reply #9 - Jun 4th, 2011 at 1:45am
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Your command of the English language is impressive.  I am sure that came from the many degrees you obtained in collage.  Very logical and impressive.
  
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depressed
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Re: perm reject if you fail this state police poly
Reply #10 - Jun 4th, 2011 at 2:05am
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Bill_Brown wrote on Jun 4th, 2011 at 1:45am:
Your command of the English language is impressive.† I am sure that came from the many degrees you obtained in collage.† Very logical and impressive.†




Yes, it is - if that is the best you have, I really feel sorry for you. Your profession is a joke. I have seen people pass polys with flying colors, who later ADMITTED to committing said acts. Explain that one. I have also seen GOOD men, high ranking mil personnel be accused of terrorism by another agency, or during the hiring phase, when the this could be furthest from the truth.

Just because you believe in your "Never-Never Land" and Peter Pan doesn't mean the rest of us do, nor should we. Your narrow minded NON-LOGIC speaks volumes when you put your full faith and credit into a FALLIBLE machine and then try to ascertain "truth or false" from said machine, with the human error factor. Yep, I have plenty of ocean front property for sale in Arizona if your interested...†

By the way, the educated will always outweigh the lemmings such as you...
  
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stefano
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Re: perm reject if you fail this state police poly
Reply #11 - Jun 4th, 2011 at 5:35am
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depressed wrote on Jun 4th, 2011 at 2:05am:
By the way, the educated will always outweigh the lemmings such as you...

Depressed: back it down a couple notches. there are many others who deserve this kind of treatment, but bill_brown is among the most civil and open minded.
  
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Mr. Truth
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Re: perm reject if you fail this state police poly
Reply #12 - Jun 4th, 2011 at 7:40pm
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And besides, it's college, not collage.
  
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Bill_Brown
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Re: perm reject if you fail this state police poly
Reply #13 - Jun 4th, 2011 at 8:31pm
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Mr. Truth,

Sorry about the spelling error, I will be more attentive.
  
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Bill_Brown
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Re: perm reject if you fail this state police poly
Reply #14 - Jun 4th, 2011 at 9:41pm
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Depressed,

I am sorry for your experience.  We have errors in polygraph and it adversely affects the lives of those involved.  Many examiners do advise employers of this fact and encourage the employer to do a complete background and not rely on the polygraph as the final authority.  Not all employers listen. 

There will always be abuses of polygraph, this is true in all professions.  The polygraph community has made tremendous strides by changing many rules and guidelines with the American Polygraph Association and the American Association of Police Polygraphers.  We are continuing to work on research which will aid us in conducting examinations. 

I am sorry for your plight, and wish it were different for you. 

  
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