Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3  ReplyAdd Poll Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) perm reject if you fail this state police poly (Read 30279 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Sergeant1107
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 730
Location: Connecticut, USA
Joined: May 21st, 2005
Gender: Male
Re: perm reject if you fail this state police poly
Reply #15 - Jun 5th, 2011 at 5:14pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Bill_Brown wrote on Jun 3rd, 2011 at 5:47pm:
Sergeant,

As an examiner, I do assign the term Inconclusive to an examination where I have observed countermeasure usage.   


Can you explain why you do this?  It seems counterintuitive...

If I arrest someone for DUI and see them jamming their tongue into the tube of the Intoxilyzer, I am not going to score that as anything other than a refusal.  I wouldn't score it as "could not complete test for some unknown reason" or anything like that.

If I was a polygraph examiner and I detected countermeasures, why would I score that as inconclusive?  The most logical reason, in my opinion, is that the examiner is guessing about countermeasure usage, rather than definitively detecting countermeasure usage.  I could see some examiners in that instance scoring the test as inconclusive in that case, knowing there is a chance they have guessed incorrectly.
  

Lorsque vous utilisez un argumentum ad hominem, tout le monde sait que vous êtes intellectuellement faillite.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Bill_Brown
Very Senior User
****
Offline



Posts: 227
Joined: Apr 8th, 2011
Re: perm reject if you fail this state police poly
Reply #16 - Jun 6th, 2011 at 12:10am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Sergeant,

If I observe a physical countermeasure, I would call it a movement, which is an artifact on polygraph and note it as such. 

With intoxilyzer you don't "Score" you get a print out, noting to score.  Polygraph gets numerical scores for each component on each question.  If the score falls between certain numbers, it is inconclusive.  I may observe tracings that are indicative of countermeasures.  I would mention this in my report.  Physical countermeasures are observable in most cases and are also mentioned in the report.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Sergeant1107
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 730
Location: Connecticut, USA
Joined: May 21st, 2005
Gender: Male
Re: perm reject if you fail this state police poly
Reply #17 - Jun 6th, 2011 at 3:38am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Bill_Brown wrote on Jun 6th, 2011 at 12:10am:
Sergeant,

If I observe a physical countermeasure, I would call it a movement, which is an artifact on polygraph and note it as such. 

With intoxilyzer you don't "Score" you get a print out, noting to score.  Polygraph gets numerical scores for each component on each question.  If the score falls between certain numbers, it is inconclusive.  I may observe tracings that are indicative of countermeasures.  I would mention this in my report.  Physical countermeasures are observable in most cases and are also mentioned in the report. 


With regards to the Intoxilyzer, that’s not really correct.  If the subject cooperates with the Intoxilyzer there is nothing to “score” because the instrument does the analysis.  However, if the subject is playing games, such as pretending to not be able to exhale, or blocking the tube with his tongue, or inhaling rather than exhaling, the officer conducting the test is required to make a judgment call as to whether the test subject is truly confused or is willfully refusing to go along with the test.  In the latter case, the officer considers the subject’s actions a refusal and processes the remainder of the case as such.

It would seem to me that if polygraph operators could indeed reliably detect countermeasure use they would certainly “fail” any subject caught using them.  I do not see any logical reason why that would not happen, if in fact polygraph operators can positively detect countermeasures and are not just guessing.

In the case of a DUI arrest, if the subject wanted to fight the “refusal” in court, it would be very easy to simply show the judge the video recording of the arrest processing and point out something like, “Here is where he is pressing his tongue against the tube.  Here’s where I told him not to do that again or it would be a refusal.  Here’s where he is once again jamming his tongue against the tube.”  And the judge would then agree that the subject refused.  I’ve done that (in various forms) many, many times.

If countermeasures could be detected there is no reason why the polygraph industry, which clearly considers countermeasures to be cheating, would not fail anyone they could show was using countermeasures. 

Of course, if the "detection" of countermeasures consists of the "instinct" or the "feeling" of the polygraph examiner, that might be a bit tough to stand behind.  I wouldn't want to arrest someone after an interview even if I was sure they were lying unless I had some evidence to back it up.  I can imagine that polygraph operators don't want to mark someone as "failed due to countermeasure usage" unless they can back it up with more than a gut feeling or a "movement" on a polygraph chart.
  

Lorsque vous utilisez un argumentum ad hominem, tout le monde sait que vous êtes intellectuellement faillite.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Bill_Brown
Very Senior User
****
Offline



Posts: 227
Joined: Apr 8th, 2011
Re: perm reject if you fail this state police poly
Reply #18 - Jun 6th, 2011 at 11:58am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Sergeant,

With intoxalyzer it does the calculations.  With polygraph I do the calculations.  If I observe a person manipulating the tracings by physical movements, I do get a score which indicates "Inconclusive" in most cases.  I do mention in the report that countermeasures were used and elaborate on what I observed.

If the subject is using mental countermeasures, I cannot see, hear or know for sure.  There are attributes in the tracings which indicate countermeasures were used, and I will articulate this in the report also.  I am not positive they used countermeasures, I suspect it based on the tracings I am observing. 

Certain anomalies in the tracings are present on persons using mental countermeasures that are consistent with mental countermeasures.  I cannot, in all good faith, tell you that we catch all persons that are using these tactics, we do catch some.

If you are very educated in polygraph and have practiced with an examiner or with an instrument, and are able to produce "normal" charts, I cannot detect the countermeasures. 

I don't recall in my long career anyone being arrested based only on a polygraph result.    I never make a WAG on polygraph, I use chart interpretation and the resultant score to make any decision. 

With polygraph the score (numerical) determines the outcome.  A Significant Response indicates deception, No Significant Response indicates truthful, and anything in between is considered Inconclusive.  When countermeasures are used, we "generally" have an Inconclusive score.  Therefore I call it Inconclusive.  The observation of countermeasures are placed in the report. 

« Last Edit: Jun 6th, 2011 at 1:34pm by Bill_Brown »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box stefano
Ex Member


Re: perm reject if you fail this state police poly
Reply #19 - Jun 6th, 2011 at 9:14pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Bill_Brown wrote on Jun 6th, 2011 at 11:58am:
There are attributes in the tracings which indicate countermeasures were used

This is speculative and arrogant. You cannot detect mental countermeasures and it's folly for you to put such in a report.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Bill_Brown
Very Senior User
****
Offline



Posts: 227
Joined: Apr 8th, 2011
Re: perm reject if you fail this state police poly
Reply #20 - Jun 6th, 2011 at 11:16pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
I am not positive they used countermeasures, I suspect it based on the tracings I am observing.


Stefano,

I said it is suspected and that is what I put in the report.  I try not to be arrogant.  The tracings I have observed when persons use mental countermeasures are distinctive in some aspects, and remember these individuals are not "trained" in their usage.  The term "Haphazard" would apply.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Fair Chance
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 551
Joined: Oct 10th, 2002
Re: perm reject if you fail this state police poly
Reply #21 - Jun 7th, 2011 at 1:33am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Dear Bill_Brown,

You are straightforward in your presentations and your confidence in your craft. I do not agree with you or your representations but I do appreciate your effort to describe why you believe in your results.

We will let the readers decide for themselves.

I do think that the the polygraph exam used in applicant prescreening is counterproductive and inefficient.  Time will tell.  The federal applicants were astronomical a few years ago which made any collateral damage to failed applicants inconsequential. I believe this country will no longer find that the case in the future.

Nice to joust with you. We can agree to disagree, we would not probably share a barbecue this weekend. A discussion can be had in this country without people calling each other an idiot just because they believe in what they believe in.

Regards.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Bill_Brown
Very Senior User
****
Offline



Posts: 227
Joined: Apr 8th, 2011
Re: perm reject if you fail this state police poly
Reply #22 - Jun 7th, 2011 at 4:31pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Fair Chance,

Thank you for being open minded.  I do try to be straight forward and honest.  I do agree with your statement regarding employment screening. 

Screening is the least accurate testing we do, and if employers make decisions based solely on polygraph results, we loose good candidates.  I advocate using background investigators to discover new information if an applicant shows deception and there are no admissions.

We may be able to attend a weekend BBQ, I'm not oppositional.  I enjoy learning from the postings on this web site.  It causes me to be careful and use caution before labeling anyone as untruthful.  I am sure I do make errors on occasion.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box depressed
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 8
Joined: Jun 30th, 2010
Re: perm reject if you fail this state police poly
Reply #23 - Jun 9th, 2011 at 5:13am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Bill_Brown wrote on Jun 7th, 2011 at 4:31pm:
Fair Chance,

Thank you for being open minded.  I do try to be straight forward and honest.  I do agree with your statement regarding employment screening. 

Screening is the least accurate testing we do, and if employers make decisions based solely on polygraph results, we loose good candidates.  I advocate using background investigators to discover new information if an applicant shows deception and there are no admissions.

We may be able to attend a weekend BBQ, I'm not oppositional.  I enjoy learning from the postings on this web site.  It causes me to be careful and use caution before labeling anyone as untruthful.  I am sure I do make errors on occasion. 



Unfortunately, we all know that that is not the case. The poly is used as the say all be all, and once you fail, regardless if you were Jesus Christ himself, it's over. So why then do agencies use this failed means of determining the future of individuals who, in most cases, are extremely qualified? This only results in taking the bottom of the barrel candidates...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Bill_Brown
Very Senior User
****
Offline



Posts: 227
Joined: Apr 8th, 2011
Re: perm reject if you fail this state police poly
Reply #24 - Jun 9th, 2011 at 7:40pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
depressed wrote on Jun 9th, 2011 at 5:13am:
Bill_Brown wrote on Jun 7th, 2011 at 4:31pm:
Fair Chance,

Thank you for being open minded.  I do try to be straight forward and honest.  I do agree with your statement regarding employment screening. 

Screening is the least accurate testing we do, and if employers make decisions based solely on polygraph results, we loose good candidates.  I advocate using background investigators to discover new information if an applicant shows deception and there are no admissions.

We may be able to attend a weekend BBQ, I'm not oppositional.  I enjoy learning from the postings on this web site.  It causes me to be careful and use caution before labeling anyone as untruthful.  I am sure I do make errors on occasion. 



Unfortunately, we all know that that is not the case. The poly is used as the say all be all, and once you fail, regardless if you were Jesus Christ himself, it's over. So why then do agencies use this failed means of determining the future of individuals who, in most cases, are extremely qualified? This only results in taking the bottom of the barrel candidates...



I cannot answer for "all agencies".  I do not agree with your statement regarding only taking bottom of the barrel candidates.  The ones selected are actually top notch individuals in most cases.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Jon
Guest


Re:
Reply #25 - Jan 5th, 2017 at 8:41pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Plain and simple, it is a pseudoscience. I am permanently banned from employment in Missouri and who knows where else, because I failed a test. It is true, I tried to control my breathing because it spiked. What makes it ridiculous is that it spiked because of a perception I had in my mind, not related to the question. I answered the questions honestly. I was so honest with these people, by the time they had written down everything I had done I looked like a Somalian pirate. I had nothing left to hide. I think my tester knew this too, he tried to work with me. He asked me the set of questions 5 times. The question I failed on, "have you ever committed a serious crime"? I haven't. What makes this deal so much sweater is one of the guys who I can assume passed said something in the waiting room. "I don't really care if I get this job or not, if I don't, I will just go back to working at the jail. I suspect only a punk would say something like that while in the application process of a job, it sounded so juvenile. Future Missouri State Trooper, right there.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box quickfix
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 345
Joined: Jan 15th, 2006
Re: perm reject if you fail this state police poly
Reply #26 - Jan 6th, 2017 at 6:39pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Quote:
Plain and simple, it is a pseudoscience. I am permanently banned from employment in Missouri and who knows where else, because I failed a test.

The circus always needs someone to walk behind the elephants with the big shovel.
Quote:
It is true, I tried to control my breathing because it spiked.

And you got caught..you got what you deserved.
Quote:
I answered the questions honestly.

Then why did you feel it necessary to control your breathing?  Oh wait, I already know...because you're stupid!
Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Wandersmann
Very Senior User
****
Offline



Posts: 228
Joined: Jun 2nd, 2015
Re: perm reject if you fail this state police poly
Reply #27 - Jan 11th, 2017 at 3:05am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
quickfix wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 6:39pm:
Quote:
Plain and simple, it is a pseudoscience. I am permanently banned from employment in Missouri and who knows where else, because I failed a test.

The circus always needs someone to walk behind the elephants with the big shovel.
Quote:
It is true, I tried to control my breathing because it spiked.

And you got caught..you got what you deserved.
Quote:
I answered the questions honestly.

Then why did you feel it necessary to control your breathing?  Oh wait, I already know...because you're stupid!
Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin


How heartless.  Here's a guy who probably has mouths to feed and worked hard to get where he is and Quickfix thinks that ruining a man's life is funny.  These miscreants in the polygraph field are despicable.
Quickfix, let me ask you a simple yes or no question that I doubt you are capable of answering......

Is it possible for a person who is telling the truth to fail a polygraph exam?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Aunty Agony
Very Senior User
****
Offline



Posts: 137
Joined: Aug 15th, 2011
Re: perm reject if you fail this state police poly
Reply #28 - Jan 11th, 2017 at 1:40pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Wandersmann wrote on Jan 11th, 2017 at 3:05am:
Is it possible for a person who is telling the truth to fail a polygraph exam?

This is a clear question. Aunty would also like to know your answer.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box quickfix
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 345
Joined: Jan 15th, 2006
Re: perm reject if you fail this state police poly
Reply #29 - Jan 11th, 2017 at 8:11pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
"Failure" is a broad term, and can mean any result other than "NSR/NDI", so allow me to reword your question to "can a truthful person not favorably complete an exam?" to account for the inconclusive as well as the significant response/deception indicated.

The polygraph is not a "lie detector".  It is a diagnostic instrument which monitors and records physiological responses to applied stimuli.  The are several reasons why someone's exam results may not be favorable.  When significant and specific responses are noted at a particular relevant question, it means that the examinee is thinking about something specific every time examinee hears that question.  It might be relevant, it might not be relevant, but what for whatever the reaon, it is significant to that examinee.  It might be because the examinee is indeed lying to the relevant issue, or has some concern that examinee thinks is relevant but may not be to the examiner.  If examinee chooses not to discuss why that question is significant, then it ends there.  It is examinee's responsibility to discuss any and all concerns, regardless of relevance.  It's called  "cooperate and graduate".

With that said, when someone comes to the polygraph room with the intent to engage in countermeasures, does not successfully complete the polygraph, then comes on this site to piss and moan about it, they get NO SYMPATHY from me.  They are indeed stupid;  stupid for believing that could pull one over on us.  I will continue to mock them at every opportunity.  I couldn't give a rat's ass how many mouths they have to feed, or whether their dream is shattered.  They came into the polygraph room with eyes open and aware of the consequences of getting caught using CMs.  If they were lying about the relevant questions, then they "failed" anyway.  If they were indeed truthful (primarily in premployment) and tried to "help themselves" pass, they have no one to blame but themselves.  Period.

BTW, no one's life is "ruined".  There is no shortage of jobs out there that don't require the passing of a polygraph;  and quite frankly, anyone who has to resort to cheating on a polygraph (that's what usings CMs is, cheating), displays a lack honesty and integrity that SHOULD disqualify them from the job sought.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 
ReplyAdd Poll Send TopicPrint
perm reject if you fail this state police poly

Please type the characters that appear in the image. The characters must be typed in the same order, and they are case-sensitive.
Open Preview Preview

You can resize the textbox by dragging the right or bottom border.
Insert Hyperlink Insert FTP Link Insert Image Insert E-mail Insert Media Insert Table Insert Table Row Insert Table Column Insert Horizontal Rule Insert Teletype Insert Code Insert Quote Edited Superscript Subscript Insert List /me - my name Insert Marquee Insert Timestamp No Parse
Bold Italicized Underline Insert Strikethrough Highlight
                       
Insert Preformatted Text Left Align Centered Right Align
resize_wb
resize_hb







Max 200000 characters. Remaining characters:
Text size: pt
More Smilies
View All Smilies
Collapse additional features Collapse/Expand additional features Smiley Wink Cheesy Grin Angry Sad Shocked Cool Huh Roll Eyes Tongue Embarrassed Lips Sealed Undecided Kiss Cry
Attachments More Attachments Allowed file types: txt doc docx ics psd pdf bmp jpe jpg jpeg gif png swf zip rar tar gz 7z odt ods mp3 mp4 wav avi mov 3gp html maff pgp gpg
Maximum Attachment size: 500000 KB
Attachment 1:
X