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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Polygraph Counter-countermeasure Techniques (Read 132420 times)
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Re: Counter-countermeasure Techniques
Reply #75 - Dec 2nd, 2006 at 5:55pm
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anythingformoney wrote on Feb 15th, 2005 at 4:29pm:
I can't really comment on Loopy unless my suspicions are confirmed.  Community computers certainly have their drawbacks . . .

Community computer?  You are not dealing with simpletons and mouth-breathers here.  Your preposterous claim that you are using a community computer within minutes of another person, back and forth and on the same site is just too much.

Let me tell you why you are a liar (aside from the fact that you are in the polygraph field):

Anal posted on Feb 10th, 2005, 2:38pm
Loopy replied on Feb 10th, 2005, 3:38pm
Anal replied on Feb 10th, 2005, 3:46pm
Loopy replied on Feb 10th, 2005, 4:12pm
Anal replied on Feb 10th, 2005, 4:19pm
Loopy replied on Feb 10th, 2005, 4:48pm
Anal replied on Feb 10th, 2005, 4:54pm
Loopy replied on Feb 11th, 2005, 11:49am
Anal replied on Feb 11th, 2005, 12:22pm

You are maintaining the position that during a 2.5 hour period on Feb 10 you were sharing a "community computer" with another AP user, and the two of you switched positions no less than 4 times during that time only to reply to one another's posts?

You posted in some cases 6 minutes apart from the SAME computer?  This is really stretching the limits of probability and maybe even the limits of possibility since community computers generally have accounts that one needs to log in and out from.

Ok, the fact that you a creating a secondary account any replying to support your own argument is nothing new.  Its been done ad nauseum on the web for the past 10 years since I have been a webmaster and administrator on no less than 8 highly trafficked message boards.

What I find disturbing is the little "relationship" you developed with yourself.  You created a fictional character then proceeded to create fictional rapport and sexual tension.  "What are you wearing?"....are you friggin' serious?  You expected us to buy that?

Then you presumably had a good night's sleep and came back on the 11th and resumed the charade...this time the "two" of you logging in within an hour of one another ON THE SAME COMPUTER.

If I worked in an agency with you, behavior of this sort would certainly raise some mental health and stability red flags.  It is not just dishonest, but also quite creepy.  I wonder if this will come back to haunt you on a future polygraph.  Could this be considered deviance of a sort?
  
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Re: Counter-countermeasure Techniques
Reply #76 - Jan 30th, 2007 at 9:47pm
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Hi, I'm new here. Smiley

Can anyone give me a definitive answer as to whether lie-detectors are beatable or not? Perhaps I would have to
pay for a test and try it as an experiment (I don't know what it costs).

I REALLY NEED TO KNOW!  ???



I read lots of claims by people that all you have to do is get a good night's sleep and relax, but then there are assertations by people who are, or who have been, polygraph operators who say "Forget it. Countermeasures are just a myth perpetuated by the internet".

Living in the U.K, it's highly unlikely I will ever have to take a polygraph test, but the idea frightens me. Can you really beat the machine? They put cables around your chest to monitor chest movement, pads at your feet so you can't clench your toes, and a pressure pad on your seat so you can't even clench your butt!!  Embarrassed

Every teeny tiny little twitch, change in electrical resistance, change in sweat levels, is monitored.. I can imagine trying to beat the machine and being totally defeated.

Are all these claims of "how to beat the lie detector" just empty boasts? Are the people who post messages about
how they beat the test or how they were shocked at being
wrongly found guilty just talking crap? I just don't know.

The polygraph operators reply in a manner that reminds me of scientists responding for the 1000th time to UFO nuts who are convinced that Roswell really happened. They reply as if it's an absurd belief and they've grown tired of trying to convince idiots of scientific fact.

I find it hard to not believe the polygraph operators.

I'm sure it's been said a hundred times in this forum, but the argument "if you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear" angers me.

It's a terribly glib response to an issue that deeply affects
our rights of personal privacy; our right to think and feel and do things that may do no one any harm, but may cost us our repututations, our dignity, our chance for a decent job. For example, lots of people take illegal drugs  recreationally - perhaps just once in a couple of weeks or on special occasions; no one gets hurt, it doesn't melt their brains, no one needs to know. But... But if you are "requested" to take a polygraph for your employer it could see you blacklisted for life. and as for having to take a lie detector test to get a job.. what are your chances? And who is to say that the information won't be passed on?

It disturbs me that we seem to be living in a world that is increasingly controlled by puritans who see to it that only "good" people have nothing to fear.

So what am I really like?..

Do I take drugs? No, nothing illegal anyway - amyl once in a while (legal in the UK).

Would I ever do hard drugs? Probably not. I will very likely try magic mushrooms sometime, maybe I'll even try cocaine one day, but the whole "drugs scene" isn't really for me.

Am I a child molestor? Not in a million years, but I don't feel guilty about watching 16 year old girls in short skirts.

Am I a pervert? Depends what you think about BDSM.

Am I a thief? Nope. I've never stolen anything except junk and a couple of nuts and bolts from work.

A "cheat"? I would never cheat on a girl, but then I also believe in polyamoristic relationships (swinging) - something I would not conceal.

Why am I telling you this? Because any of the above confessions would be enough to see me castigated by
the people who employ the use of lie detectors! Be they
employers or chat show hosts (I do so hate those smug
egotists.. "the polygraph says you lied Todd! You're a LIAR Todd! Bob, you FAILED the polygraph, we KNOW you cheated on your wife, Bob"... oh how I hate them).


Polygraph operators... I think if I ever had to take a test and all my secrets were revealed, one of us would walk out and the other would be taken out feet first.

I sincerely hope lie detectors don't work.














  
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Re: Counter-countermeasure Techniques
Reply #77 - Jan 31st, 2007 at 3:40am
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Lord_DarkClaw,

Cool handle by the way,  but these questions you ask, have a John Clease - Monty Pythonish approach. To understand what transpires in a polygraph interrogation and its validity. I would recommend you download, "The Lie Behind The Lie Detector", which is downloadable from this website, and read it cover to cover. Then download the manuals that are posted here and read what they have to say, primarily the examiners handbook. Then you make the decision on the machines validity, as it will be a personal one. But on this website, the polygraph and its uses are entirely worthless in my opinion and by others that are antipolygraph, but we do have a few polygraphers who will obviously dispute this. Other good reads are, Tremors in the Blood, by David Lykken. Do your research, and know what a sham this machine is.
Much success to you.

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Re: Counter-countermeasure Techniques
Reply #78 - Jan 31st, 2007 at 11:13pm
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Hi Jupiter Smiley
Yeah.. I rather like my name too!

as to whether lie detectors are just a scam...
I'm just not convinced; I am aware that there is a great deal of opposition from credible peer groups, but all the concerns seem to be about the objectivity of the polygraph operator rather than the machine itself. Undecided

I read an example somewhere of a polygraph operator challenging subjects to take one of a selection of dollar bills without him looking - $1,$10,$20,$100 - he then asks if the subject has taken the $1, then the $10, then the $20, then the $100 and tells the subject which one it is he or she took, proving to the subject that their body [does betray them to the testing apparatus.

Is this polygraph operator simply lying? Using a magic trick?
Lying about their success record?

Have you ever taken a lie detector test Jupiter?

I've looked at the statements from people who claim to have taken polygraph tests (is that the correct term or are there multiple devices used?) and many of them - obviously - have had bad experiences. But are they being honest?
they may say that they have nothingto gain by lying about their experiences, but it's human nature to present our best side and put on a front even in the relative anonymity of this forum.

I want to see the people who run this website take lie detector tests and try to beat them!

Prove that they don't work!
The questions do not need to be personal - the dollar bill test is a good example.

And why is there so much talk of countermeasures anyway? if it is true that lie detectors don't detect anything, then why would you need to use ANY measures to try and beat the machine? ???

If it turns out that polygraph machines don't work, then I would rest much easier over the issue of the next generation of lie/emotion detectors: If polygraphs don't work then most likely, neither will they.

I'll read up on what I can, but once upon a time, I used to be very nearly convinced by UFO books - read stuff like "Above Top Secret" by Timothy Good or watch the "Moon - Mars connection" video by Richard Hoagland. They are VERY convincing speakers, they write in a professional style.. and they are LIARS!

So, everything I read on this site, I read with a touch of skepticism. It would make me very happy to see lie detectors debunked, but what if this is just another phoney site? Do I know for sure that Dr. Richardson is a real doctor? Maybe he's just using a phoney "doctor of doctorology" type certificate (I've looked up his name on the net and I haven't found any reference to him being a fake.. but I don't know for certain).




  
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Re: Counter-countermeasure Techniques
Reply #79 - Feb 3rd, 2007 at 4:29am
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Lord_Darkclaw,


You asked:

"And why is there so much talk of countermeasures anyway? if it is true that lie detectors don't detect anything, then why would you need to use ANY measures to try and beat the machine?"

Reduce the risk of a false positive result.

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Re: Counter-countermeasure Techniques
Reply #80 - Feb 4th, 2007 at 3:13am
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Quote:
Lord_Darkclaw,


You asked:

"And why is there so much talk of countermeasures anyway? if it is true that lie detectors don't detect anything, then why would you need to use ANY measures to try and beat the machine?"

Reduce the risk of a false positive result.

v/r
triple x


And at the same time, take a big risk of being caught by the polygrapher and being disqualified. The simple fact that you are trying to amplify the chart tracings on certain questions, while feeling that the OTHER questions are the truly significant ones, will likely cause you to show responses to BOTH, resulting at best in an inconclusive exam, and at worst either failing the exam or being caught by the polygrapher and disqualified.

As a polygrapher I have caught examinees using countermeasures on many occasions. Can I guarantee that I catch ALL examinees who use countermeasures? No. But I do believe that those innocent examinees who come up inconclusive or who fail the exam due to messing around rather than following instructions would almost certainly have passed the exam if they had taken it "straight up."

If you've got nothing to hide, why mess around? The anti-polygraph people on this forum will tell you that it will help ensure that you won't be a "false positive," but I say it may very well make you an inconclusive, a failure, or a disqualification.
  
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Re: Counter-countermeasure Techniques
Reply #81 - Feb 4th, 2007 at 3:57am
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LieBabyCryBaby,

All valid points and a reasonable assessment, however.

Simply telling the truth is no guarantee of passing a polygraph exam.

The use of polygraph countermeasures if employed correctly, can enhance the chances or odds of achieving a desirable test result or NDI.

On the other hand, as you said and I agree to a certain point, there is risk involved should an examinee employ countermeasures. At best, it's a coin toss, or a 50/50 chance a test subject does not use countermeasures, and tells the truth.

Whether one uses countermeasures... or they do not use countermeasures, there remains a risk of a false positive. Countermeasures simply reduce the risk of a false positive result, although there is certainly no guarantee that CM's will warrant a desirable end result.

You claim that you have caught several examinee’s using or employing countermeasures during the process of a polygraph exam. How did you catch these people using cm's.?

Did you:

1) Actually observe or somehow catch someone squeezing there sphincter muscle?

2) Did you find a tack in their shoe?

3) Did you "suspect" or somehow catch them trying to solve complex mental math problems?

4) Did you catch someone trying to alter or "control" their breathing rate? If so, how do you know for certain that they don't breathe that way normally when under equal or comparable degrees of stress?

Although I cannot be for certain that you did or did not catch test subjects employing cm's during a polygraph exam in which you were the polygraph examiner. However, I must admit that I'm skeptical of your claims at best.


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Re: Counter-countermeasure Techniques
Reply #82 - Feb 4th, 2007 at 7:36am
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LieBabyCryBaby wrote on Feb 4th, 2007 at 3:13am:
And at the same time, take a big risk of being caught by the polygrapher and being disqualified. The simple fact that you are trying to amplify the chart tracings on certain questions, while feeling that the OTHER questions are the truly significant ones, will likely cause you to show responses to BOTH, resulting at best in an inconclusive exam, and at worst either failing the exam or being caught by the polygrapher and disqualified.

As a polygrapher I have caught examinees using countermeasures on many occasions. Can I guarantee that I catch ALL examinees who use countermeasures? No. But I do believe that those innocent examinees who come up inconclusive or who fail the exam due to messing around rather than following instructions would almost certainly have passed the exam if they had taken it "straight up."

If you've got nothing to hide, why mess around? The anti-polygraph people on this forum will tell you that it will help ensure that you won't be a "false positive," but I say it may very well make you an inconclusive, a failure, or a disqualification.



LBCB,

As much of your advice contains a certain amount of truth. Most of it, contains the first rule of counter-countermeasures. Tell eveyone that they will be caught and fail, lose your chance, generally the world will end. From my experiece, I know this not to be the case.
The worst case scenario, which happens from having highly detailed and complete polygraph procedure knowlege is inconclusive.  This is based on the facts that the polygrapher needs 3 pillars to be inplace during a polygraph session in order to work. Feel free to argue if you can.

1. Examinee must have fear and anxiety. Without this in place the "fight or flight" response is gone. Knowlege is the key here, some may still exist, but the polygraphers advantage is highly reduced or eliminated.

2. Examinee must believe that deception will be detected. You achieve this, by all the misinformation and scenario presentation during the pretest. This added stimulus is ineffective to those of us who know what you are doing. Again we may have to cooperate, we just don't have to believe or take what is said as anything other than a great show.

3. Examinee must have consequences for failure.  This is the important reason why inconclusive is the result. Pass and inconclusive is not a failure. And the more inconclusives that happen the more familiar the subject gets with the box. Which you can't let happen, as what ever fear or anxiety may be left is shredded and gone. And if you look at this logically, is any job really worth this garbage. Life still goes on, with or without the polygraph. THe subject just has to have the courage to accept he/she may not get the job.

These 3 rules remove the polygraph from the equation. Pushing any decision back where it belongs, based on real facts from a background investigation.  Not a human beings questionable opinion.  And for me, multiple inconclusives effectively defeats the polygraph.

Regards ....
  

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Re: Counter-countermeasure Techniques
Reply #83 - Feb 6th, 2007 at 1:49pm
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*sigh*

I just don't see anything conclusive in these forums!
I've started to read a little about the case against lie-detectors, and there certainly does seem to be a strong case; but I want to see someone go for the jugular!

Show me the proof-positive case, for or against.

Show me a case of a hardened skeptic failing to beat the test, or show me a case of an average person confounding the test.
  
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Re: Counter-countermeasure Techniques
Reply #84 - Feb 6th, 2007 at 4:32pm
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Triple X,

I have responded to HOW a test subject is usually caught using countermeasures in a polygraph exam in other posts. However, let me repeat it for you.

EosJ's argument about the "worst case scenario" of countermeasures being the inconclusive test result MIGHT be valid if a test subject worked and worked and worked on countermeasures technique until he/she could produce convincing charts that wouldn't betray him/her to an experienced polygrapher trained in counter-countermeasures. However, subjects can not produce those convincing charts because they fail to take into account the factors of normal habituation and variability of control question response. To explain it simply, their charts are not normal. I've seen it over and over again. Sometimes subjects are caught using the old anal squeeze or other visible techniques, but generally it has been the charts that betray them.

In most cases, when confronted, the subject admits the use of countermeasures. In some cases, the subject sits there with a sheepish look on his/her face, but won't admit anything.  Either way, though, it is the polygrapher's call. I know normal charts when I see them, and I know abnormal charts. Could I be "beaten" by a great chart manipulator? Perhaps so, and perhaps I have been. But I caution those who would try to use countermeasures to beat the test that it is very likely that you will be caught. So if we figure the polygraph is already "better than chance" at detecting deception, do you want to further decrease your chances on the exam conducted by a polygrapher who knows what to look for?
  
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Re: Counter-countermeasure Techniques
Reply #85 - Feb 6th, 2007 at 9:13pm
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Lord_DarkClaw,

On this website in the blogs area, is the original CBS 60 minutes expose "Truth and Consequences", it was done in 1986. It shreds, without a doubt any validity of the polygraph. I highly suggest watching it. If you still think there is any doubt about its dubious workings. Then you will  have to find your own answers.

LBCB,

I knew you couldn't resist a rebuttal. But then again I would expect you to support your position. And contrary to your position, countermeasures are not even needed to get the inconclusives. Once the fear is gone, all thats left is an indignant relaxed attitude. And no matter how much false stimulation added to the scenario, nothing changes. I repeat once the fear and anxiety is gone, all you get is inconclusive.  And at this point in my life, not too much shakes those of us who know deep down in our souls that its a load of horse hockey while in the chair. We may have to submit to the polygraph, but nothing says we have to believe. And without that belief, you get nothing. Its cooperation without cooperating. And this works in all cases. Civil Disobedience for the polygraph, if you wish to use a cliche.

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Re: Counter-countermeasure Techniques
Reply #86 - Feb 7th, 2007 at 2:04am
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Lord_Darkclaw wrote on Feb 6th, 2007 at 1:49pm:
*sigh*

I just don't see anything conclusive in these forums!
I've started to read a little about the case against lie-detectors, and there certainly does seem to be a strong case; but I want to see someone go for the jugular!

Show me the proof-positive case, for or against.

Show me a case of a hardened skeptic failing to beat the test, or show me a case of an average person confounding the test.


Individual cases, while sometimes worthy of demonstrating the foolishness of the polygraph, are not evidence rather they are merely anecdote...

The CQT polygraph test (and its variants) has the theoretical assumption that subjects will manifest different physiological changes (breathing, heart rate, blood pressure, sweating) when they lie. This is based on the fact that there is some correlation between changes in physiology and guilt...

However, this is not a one-to-one correlation and this is where CQT polygraph and its variants commit their logical error: just because lying people are nervous does not mean that nervous people are lying...

So the real problem with the CQT polygraph is that it cannot distinguish between the innocent but nervous and the guilty but nervous. As much as polygraphers, CVSA'ers and other mind-readers would have us believe, nature did not equip us with a "Pinocchio's nose"...

If you read the National Academy of Sciences report (its link is somewhere on this site), you will find all of the summary of proof that you need to know that the CQT polygraph and its variants have no scientific basis. In addition, you will find that the NAS also concluded that polygraphs are dangerous in screening applications (e.g., employment and post-conviction) and are biased against the innocent...

The NAS also concluded that if it is to be used, the CQT polygraph and its variants should only be used in specific criminal incidents because this is the only arena where its accuracy is above chance but well below perfection. This is because the CQT polygraph becomes more like its scientific cousin, the Guilty Knowledge Test (GKT) or as its now known in the psychology literature - Event Related Potential (ERP)...

But in my opinion, the only thing the CQT polygraph and its variants are really useful for is eliciting confessions from the gullible...

Finally, you ask for proof but it seems that you're just echoing the pro-polygraph people on this site that harp about experience. If you really want proof, start with the NAS study then read Lykken's A Tremor in the Blood, these will give you a summary of the CQT polygraph and its dangers. You'll need no other "proof", unless of course you're a polygrapher just masquerading to spread disinformation...
  
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Re: Counter-countermeasure Techniques
Reply #87 - Feb 10th, 2007 at 1:07pm
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I read the National Academy of Sciences report, but it doesn't seem to criticize the validity of the polygraph machine - it does criticize the methods of testing, but it does not offer any damning criticsm of the accuracy of the machine.

What the report gives, is a set of "what if" scenarios -
situations in which the test subject may produce atypical responses.

But in testing for responses to specific questions - ie;
questions that are not generic - the validity of the polygraph test is not called into question except in regard to countermeasure techniques - techniques which are now limited since the introduction of counter-counter measures (pressure-sensitive seat pads/foot pads etc).

So, for me, the question remains: when someone is strapped into a chair;  pad on seat, pads under feet, tubes around chest, wires on fingers; can they really beat the test when asked direct questions?
  
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Re: Counter-countermeasure Techniques
Reply #88 - Feb 10th, 2007 at 8:02pm
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Lord_Darkclaw,

You write in part:
Quote:
I read the National Academy of Sciences report, but it doesn't seem to criticize the validity of the polygraph machine - it does criticize the methods of testing, but it does not offer any damning criticsm of the accuracy of the machine.


Your statement is analogous to saying that aside from the planes flying into tall buildings and the 3000 people who died, 9/11 wasn't such a bad day.  You have missed the forest for the trees.  No one questions that we can instrumentally detect electrodermal responses et. al., but whether polygraph methods and procedures that utilize such measures allow for the discrimination between truth and falsehood.  It is the validity of the methodology and not the instrumentation ("the polygraph machine" as you say) which is in question and which has some import.  I suggest you renew your recent reading endeavors with that in mind...
  
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Re: Counter-countermeasure Techniques
Reply #89 - Feb 10th, 2007 at 10:31pm
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LieBabyCryBaby wrote on Feb 6th, 2007 at 4:32pm:
Triple X,

I have responded to HOW a test subject is usually caught using countermeasures in a polygraph exam in other posts. However, let me repeat it for you.

EosJ's argument about the "worst case scenario" of countermeasures being the inconclusive test result MIGHT be valid if a test subject worked and worked and worked on countermeasures technique until he/she could produce convincing charts that wouldn't betray him/her to an experienced polygrapher trained in counter-countermeasures. However, subjects can not produce those convincing charts because they fail to take into account the factors of normal habituation and variability of control question response. To explain it simply, their charts are not normal. I've seen it over and over again. Sometimes subjects are caught using the old anal squeeze or other visible techniques, but generally it has been the charts that betray them.

In most cases, when confronted, the subject admits the use of countermeasures. In some cases, the subject sits there with a sheepish look on his/her face, but won't admit anything.  Either way, though, it is the polygrapher's call. I know normal charts when I see them, and I know abnormal charts. Could I be "beaten" by a great chart manipulator? Perhaps so, and perhaps I have been. But I caution those who would try to use countermeasures to beat the test that it is very likely that you will be caught. So if we figure the polygraph is already "better than chance" at detecting deception, do you want to further decrease your chances on the exam conducted by a polygrapher who knows what to look for?



LieBabyCryBaby,

Your claim to detect and differentiate natural physiological responses during a polygraph examination from artificially produced physiological responses [cm’s] short of an admission from the test subject is lacking in plausible support. That said, I would certainly agree and understand if you catch a test subject with a tack in their shoe… or, if you visually observe someone tensing/flexing while attempting to employ the tried and true butt squeeze, however. Short of the admission that a test subject was in fact employing polygraph countermeasures would be nothing more than speculation and opinion.

The ability to manipulate polygraph charts via artificial physiological responses is not as hard as you may think. Anyone with minimal training can easily produce artificially enhanced physiological responses indistinguishable from natural responses expected during a polygraph exam.

Simply telling the truth is no guarantee of successfully passing a polygraph exam.


triple x

  
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