Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Passed the mandatory maintanance exam (Read 26659 times)
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Passed the mandatory maintanance exam
Mar 8th, 2002 at 7:52am
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Hey all!

I would first of all like to say that i am on probation for staturory rape.  I'm not going to lie, I had sex with her, and I knew her age.  She had come on to me and I rebuked her before, but the only time it counted, I did not say no.  It's not in my nature to molest children and just to let you know, I was 19 and she was 15, but that's another story.  I was the older party, I knew it was wrong, and allowed it to happen anyway, so now I'm paying my penance.  So now I'm serving 10 years on probation and mandatory Sex Offender Treatment.  Well, we originally started with a provider that did not believe in polygraphing unless a specific incident was discovered.  However, the powers that be in my judicial circut decided to change treatment providers, and these new providers decided that 100% mandatory maintanance examines were in order.  Well, today I took my first maintanance exam and thanks to the techniques I had studied in the book, I passed with flying colors.  I just studied the second edition last night before I took the exam and it helped alot.  In preperation for the exam, I did not sleep for 30 hours prior.  This probably did not help anything at all, but I will tell you this; by the time I got to the chair, I really didn't care about anything he was asking.  All I could think about was getting to sleep.  When we went over the pretest questions, I could only pick out 1 control question, so I employed countermeasures during the stim test and when he asked the one control question.  During all the other questions, all I thought about was getting home and getting in the bed and not getting out.

Whatever I did, it worked.  The polygrapher was professional the entire time and said I did excellent.  No deception.  I really wasn't expecting anything, because I am a pretty honest person, but it was still good to know that I was in control of the "little lie box" and not the other way around.  To anyone who is about to endure a polygraph for the first time, I greatly recommend studying the second edition of the lie behind the lie detector and employing the techniques discussed there.  I'll keep you updated as to future exams and results.  Before I go though, I would like to comment: although I'm happy that i "passed" the test with flying colors, it is, in my opinion an empty victory.  Passing a test that, by it's very nature, can not preform its desired function without the use of deception and the need for subjects of the test to believe this deception is not anything to be proud of.  As salutatorian of my graduating class and a pre-med student, I always strive to do the best that I can in any endeavor.  It disturbs me that such a test is considered to be infallible to many and the results to be unequivocally true.  If a deceptive person can pass the exam as easy as an honest one, why do we continue to rely on such tests?  Alas, this is a question raised in the book, but one that I felt needed reiteration.  Well enough of my ramblings.  Good luck all!
  
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Re: Passed the mandatory maintanance exam
Reply #1 - Mar 9th, 2002 at 3:27am
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What an interesting post.  A CONVICTED RAPIST who used "The Lie Behind the Lie Detector" to cheat his way through a polygraph required as a condition of his probation.  

On top of that he is a pre-med student?  Society is suppose to trust this guy with their health and lives?  That is scary to say the least.  

Well gentlmen, this is a great example of the fruits of your labor....  
  
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Re: Passed the mandatory maintanance exam
Reply #2 - Mar 9th, 2002 at 5:37am
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With which party does the preponderence of blame lie? The probationee, who is merely doing exactly what the polygrapher is doing (LYING), or the judicial institution that values a travesty of a sham of a pseudo-science?

Don't like how polygraph interrogation victims fight back? Get a new job!
« Last Edit: Mar 10th, 2002 at 4:06am by beech trees »  

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Re: Passed the mandatory maintanance exam
Reply #3 - Mar 11th, 2002 at 6:12am
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(This is venting)

First of all, lets clear up some of the seeming misperceptions of my situation.  I do not need to defend myself to anyone, and I felt that the specifics of my case bore no meaning to the topic at hand, however, let me clear something up.  As I said earlier, I take full responsibility in the actions I took, but the state saw fit to not only place me on probation for statutory rape CHARGES, but they placed her on probation as well for criminal mischief.  I am not a convicted rapist, nor am I a convicted felon on any charges.  Secondly, I did not employ countermeasures to cover deceitfulness, rather I employed them to augment the truthful responses I knew I was giving.  This forum is in place to express your opinions on the virtues (or lack thereof) and/or value of the polygraph exam; not to sit on a moral high horse and pass judgment.  I have spent enough bandwidth responding to the post (L72cueak) and will digress. 

(The actual message)

Once again I would like to reiterate the resounding message of this site; the use of a polygraph does not ensure that a person telling a lie will be caught, and rather than the polygraphist complaining about it, they should look into finding a method that is not so reliant on deception itself.
  
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Re: Passed the mandatory maintanance exam
Reply #4 - Mar 11th, 2002 at 4:25pm
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Verbatim,

The most recent round of attacks by the pro-polygraph community merely demonstrates how deeply panicked they are to see their rather lucrative little racket crumbling around their $1,000.00 'activity sensor' pads.

I'll agree that when the subject of polygraphy crosses with post conviction testing, we tread on sensitive ground. No one in their right mind would ever want to facilitate a sex-offender's ability to commit crimes and escape justice/avoid suitable psychiatric therapy. However, the State unknowingly is doing just this by inserting the pseudo-science into the equation. You were wise to come to the table armed with facts.
  

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Re: Passed the mandatory maintanance exam
Reply #5 - Mar 12th, 2002 at 11:10pm
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I agree wholeheartedly with what you have posted beach trees.  According to the laws of the state that I live in, I am a sex offender.  Does this mean that I am going to have sex with a minor ever again.  You can bet the farm that I am not.  Unfortunantly, all you have to go on is my word.  I would love nothing more than for someone to implement a "true" lie detecting system that is not based on vodoo science, however, to my knowledge there is not one.  

Responding to what you said in your second paragraph in reference to the fine line we tread between post conviction and the polygraph, I have this to say.

I am in the unique position of being classified as a sex offender and get to see other sex offenders up close and personal.  And you know what?  It's scary.  The fact that some of these guys are being allowed to walk the streets is scary.  Do not think that I feel that I am better than these people.  A sex offense is a sex offense any way you slice it.  I would also like to take this time to state that just because a person is designated as a sex offender does not mean that he/she is a danger to all children.  However, in the same category we have those who suffer from pedephillia and other serious mental conditions that allow them to repeatedly harm the youth.  The fact that we are using the polygraph to ensure that these people do not reoffend frightens me to no end.  Like I stated before, I get to see it from the inside and it's not pretty.  Some of the things that I have heard would sicken you and bring you to tears.  I will play the devils advocate for a moment and state that the majority of people who commit such crimes are not of the upper echolone of society, nor do many of them rank high in IQ testing.   With that said, many believe that they will be caught by the polygraph and make confessions based on that fear.  This leaves me with a bitter-sweet feeling towards the test.  

On the one hand I am thankful that these people will no longer be able to offend, but on the flip side, where in the constitution does it state that the system may pray on an individuals ignorance to incriminate them?  

Not to mention those of a different calibur all together which are devious, deliberate, and of higher intelligence that may very well employ countermeasures to "beat" the test.  

When looked upon from both sides, the polygraph is a tool that at best can only fool people into making and admission.  It can not and should not be relied upon to produce any "factual concrete evidence" to the perponderance of any situation, criminal or employment based.  It is, in my belief, a money making tool (at least in the case of the judicial circut in which i reside) that should have as much bearing on deception as a psychic reading tarrot cards.

So where does that leave us?  We come to this forum and discuss the problems of the polygraph, but what is to be done about it.  Any insight into actual actions being taken (other than the challenges put forth on this web site) would be greatly appreciated.

(sorry long winded just have a lot of thoughts on the subject!)
  
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Re: Passed the mandatory maintanance exam
Reply #6 - Mar 18th, 2002 at 3:06pm
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If you want to know something more scary. Iowa SOTP program seems to relie on the polygraph more then anything else. Treatment for my son is a joke ( got him a private counselor as well) the tests are a joke and they base everything on a polygraph test.

Seems to me everything is backwords in the heartland.

P.S. L72cueak if your going to use this thread in your defense of your quack job you got another thing coming to you. This guy barely used any counter measures from what I read and saw in this website, all he did was stay calm.
  
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Re: Passed the mandatory maintanance exam
Reply #7 - Feb 25th, 2003 at 5:34am
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I hardly think a 19 year old having consensual sex with a 15 makes one a rapist. A mistake yes, rape no. Many 15 year old girls are more mature than 19 year old boys.

Practicing a quack profession based on psuedo science such as polygraphy or--just a bad--drug testing puts one much lower in the slime pool.
  
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Re: Passed the mandatory maintanance exam
Reply #8 - Feb 27th, 2003 at 6:50pm
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Kudos to verbatim for not letting these people screw his life up any more than it already is. And a big "thumbs-down" to L72cueak for slapping a label on him that is totally off the mark.
Verbatim's situation is one that is quite common in our country. Statistics show that 1/2 of all high-school students are sexually active. Granted, most of them are doing it with their classmates. Sex between two 15 year-olds is just as illegal as what Verbatim did. So why aren't these kids being arrested, if it is so wrong? Why does society choose to turn a blind eye to these events unless an "adult" is involved? And what magical event occurs on the eve of one's 18th birthday that endows them with the wisdom and maturity to make these decisions but at the same time makes them a "monster" as L72cueak seems to think Verbatim is?
A philosophical question that can never be answered with satisfaction, so I will leave it at that. Keep it up, Verbatim, and good luck to you in your future as a doctor.
  

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Re: Passed the mandatory maintanance exam
Reply #9 - Feb 28th, 2003 at 2:23am
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anontx,
I'm not here to argue PSOT, just to add a bite of common sense to this thread.  You said,
Quote:
I hardly think a 19 year old having consensual sex with a 15 makes one a rapist. A mistake yes, rape no. Many 15 year old girls are more mature than 19 year old boys.

I believe 18 in the eyes of the law makes you legal.  I think the 15 y/o's parents might agree with me on that.  What if it were your daughter or what if she were 14, 13?  Where is the line to be drawn?    
  
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Re: Passed the mandatory maintanance exam
Reply #10 - Feb 28th, 2003 at 3:06am
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Verbatim....you really, really confuse me (No, Michelle, aka Thunder Thighs,  I am NOT "Confused") Let me get this straight, you did a "bad" thing (by your own admission), and then you took a polygraph test as part of your court ordered probation (if need be, correct me anywhere along the line). You state that this test was a maintenance test (my understanding of maintenance tests is to ensure that you abiding my the conditions of your probation i.e. includes but not limited to things such as unsupervised contact with children).  You donot say so (and I will give you the benefit of the doubt and just say that you have religiously followed the demands of your probation and therefore you should be able to take your test and pass it with no problems whatsoever.  Here is where the confusion comes in.  Why would have wanted to apply countermeasures if you were genuinely being honest in the first place.  Regardless if the examiner was able to pick up your countermeasures....if he did, you would most likely have been revoked and sent to the slammer.  There are any number of reasons why the examiner allegedly did not notice your CM's, but it just puzzles me why you would even take this chance...given as you said, you are innocent.  My friend, the test works, you may believe what you want.  It matters not to me.  You may very well realize that someday and at this point you are relying on the test to keep you out of jail.  You are playing with your own life....so grin and chuckle all you like.  Let's see you chuckle when you are revoked.

The second part of this post should be addressed to George (and Gino) as purveyors of this site.  This is the very situation that many of the polygraphers have been talking about.  Aren't you proud of yourself?  This is not a typical example, because of the nature of the offense, the apparent lack of continuing illegal behavior (assuming he is truthful about that).  He acknowledges using your information in TLBTLD to help him pass the test.  Can you honestly sleep well at night knowing that, bottom line you are training "bad" people to "beat the test".  I know your position and that you think in terms of the greater good, but typically, sex offenders of not of the ilk as Verbatim (again, assuming he is being truthful about the lack of his exploits).  Do any of the anti-poly people out there have children and how would you feel if a VIOLENT sex offender who somehow were able to achieve monited probation, contingent on a polygraph) and he uses your "techniques" to escape returning to jaiol and roams the streets of YOUR neighborhood.  Please don't tell me about instilling fear.  The scenario is real and the things that you do just tend to make it easier for these folks to victimize our children.  Just ask some of your supporters on your site and see if they see the logic in my statements.  You may realize that your original thought to "right a perceived wrong" has taken a wrong turn and stands to hurt ratrher than heal.  Think about it.
  
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Re: Passed the mandatory maintanance exam
Reply #11 - Feb 28th, 2003 at 3:33am
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Quote:
 Why would have wanted to apply countermeasures if you were genuinely being honest in the first place.


Probably because polygraphs results are wildly inaccurate. As a part of your professional research, didn't you read the NAS report?

Quote:
Regardless if the examiner was able to pick up your countermeasures....if he did, you would most likely have been revoked and sent to the slammer.


Ah yes but he didn't did he? That's because the types of countermeasures described in The Lie Behind The Lie Detector are undetectable when properly applied.

Quote:
There are any number of reasons why the examiner allegedly did not notice your CM's...


I just outlined the reason above, but I would be very interested in any other reasons you might care to share why a polygrapher would not detect countermeasures. For god's sake, please don't insult us all with the 'uncalibrated machine' excuse.

Quote:
My friend, the test works, you may believe what you want.


Tell you what-- you stick with your delusional gratuitous assertions and we here at antipolygraph.org will stick to the facts. You JUST finished saying that there are any number of reasons why countermeasures would not be detected, and now you spew the propoganda that 'the test works'. The 'test' works insofar as naive, gullible, or simply moronic subjects believe that another human being can actually read minds... i.e., they are duped into confessing.

Quote:
It matters not to me.  You may very well realize that someday and at this point you are relying on the test to keep you out of jail.


Apparently it matters quite a bit Guest!

For the purposes of illustration of my point, let's presume for a moment that Verbatim is reoffending. Verbatim would then simply be relying on the polygraph community's lies, taking advantage of your lies, and remaining free. It's the PO's reliance on your particular line of B.S. that's keeping Verbatim out of jail, free to molest our sons and daughters. YOUR fault polygrapher.

Quote:
You are playing with your own life....so grin and chuckle all you like.  Let's see you chuckle when you are revoked.


Please, if you can, point to any case in the United States in which a probationer/parolee was accused of countermeasures and subsequently, based on that accusation alone, sent back to (or just to) jail. Can you, or is this another scare tactic from the polygraphers here?

Quote:
The second part of this post should be addressed to George (and Gino) as purveyors of this site.  This is the very situation that many of the polygraphers have been talking about.  Aren't you proud of yourself?  This is not a typical example, because of the nature of the offense, the apparent lack of continuing illegal behavior (assuming he is truthful about that).  He acknowledges using your information in TLBTLD to help him pass the test.  Can you honestly sleep well at night knowing that, bottom line you are training "bad" people to "beat the test".  I know your position and that you think in terms of the greater good, but typically, sex offenders of not of the ilk as Verbatim (again, assuming he is being truthful about the lack of his exploits).  Do any of the anti-poly people out there have children and how would you feel if a VIOLENT sex offender who somehow were able to achieve monited probation, contingent on a polygraph) and he uses your "techniques" to escape returning to jaiol and roams the streets of YOUR neighborhood.  Please don't tell me about instilling fear.  The scenario is real and the things that you do just tend to make it easier for these folks to victimize our children.  Just ask some of your supporters on your site and see if they see the logic in my statements.  You may realize that your original thought to "right a perceived wrong" has taken a wrong turn and stands to hurt ratrher than heal.  Think about it.


Turn the mirror around and look into it, Guest. YOU'RE to blame here, insofar as you have sold a worthless bill of goods up the chain of command. Polygraphers cannot discern truth from deception based on the charts alone, they cannot detect properly-executed countermeasures, and any attempts to bluff and bluster otherwise will be met with a multitude of posts just like mine pointing out those sad facts!
  

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Re: Passed the mandatory maintanance exam
Reply #12 - Feb 28th, 2003 at 4:12am
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Hey Beech, sorry to hear that you were feeling bad....that must be the case because I haven't heard you go off like that in a while. Whew! a scathing retort if I may say....but I doubt if Guest was listening...it seems he /she DID their homework and touched your "fluster" button. Sure hope that you are feeling better....For a while you sounded like Michelle (loved the Thunder Thighs moniker that Guest put on her). And your sad attempt at turning the blame issue around.  What are you just angry that YOU did not write TLBTLD?    One last question, you do not have any children do you?
  
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Re: Passed the mandatory maintanance exam
Reply #13 - Feb 28th, 2003 at 4:42am
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Torpedo wrote on Feb 28th, 2003 at 4:12am:
Hey Beech, sorry to hear that you were feeling bad....that must be the case because I haven't heard you go off like that in a while. Whew! a scathing retort if I may say....but I doubt if Guest was listening...it seems he /she DID their homework and touched your "fluster" button. Sure hope that you are feeling better....For a while you sounded like Michelle (loved the Thunder Thighs moniker that Guest put on her). And your sad attempt at turning the blame issue around.  What are you just angry that YOU did not write TLBTLD?    One last question, you do not have any children do you?  


Mr. Butt-cheek-checker,

If you think that's 'going off', you either work with 6th grade girls or haven't read many of my posts (please note: some are lengthy and contain pollysyllabic words).

I have a 2 year old son who is the light of my life. NO idea where you're going with that one, but logic was never and never shall be your forte...

The Blame Issue...... yes i suppose that's what we'll have to call it from now on. And, it wasn't an attempt. The fault clearly and irrevocably lies at your feet.

THANK YOU for the ad hominem attack, and have a nice day
  

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Re: Passed the mandatory maintanance exam
Reply #14 - Feb 28th, 2003 at 4:55am
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Naw...this is NOT the BT of old!...Wait, wait, I know...you ARE really Michelle and you "accidentally" took too many dex tablets.  Hug that light of your life BY and hope and pray that some of the slugs that I see way too often are never near your child...or anyone's child for that matter.  As others omn this site just might say, until we "decriminalize" dull knifes (with which to render justice), polygraph, no matter what you think of it, it is provides a modicom (ooh look a three syllable word) of protection in the absence of anything else (in case you haven't noticed, they are letting them out of the jails bud!) maybe, just maybe you would look at polygraph in a different light.  One other point (while I have you in a semi-lucid state) Aren't you the guy that said you were NOT antipolygrapher....that you were "only" anti-polygraph?  Your diatribe (oops, another one of those 25 cent words) might make one think otherwise.
  
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