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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge (Read 235730 times)
Dominique Ngoo
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #15 - Apr 18th, 2002 at 5:59pm
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Beech Trees,

You are certainly quite low down.  You lied the 1st instance by claiming that I said that the poly is a devastating interrogation tool.  You lied the 2nd instance by claiming that I said CM results in a ruined poly test.  You are lying again by claiming that I admit not knowing anything about the topic I am discussing.  I know what I say and say only what I know.  I don't pretend to be a know-all.  Have some respect in a forum like this.  Don't twist what people say.   

I appreciate the fact that your country is a great democracy and don't cane it's citizens for drawing on walls.  But that does not mean I prefer it to my country's system.   Check what that kid did to his dad.  When I was in your country not too long ago, all the folks introduced to me said they wished for a system like ours. 

I wholly agree with you that a man is presumed innocent until proven guilty and take my hats off for those who exercise their rights and refuse a poly test.  I cannot say the same for those who 'volunteer' for a test, promise to co-operate and then end up doing everything else except co-operate.   My view is that these are dishonest cowards.  They fall into the same category of people who twist people's words. 
     
     
  
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beech trees
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #16 - Apr 18th, 2002 at 7:54pm
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Beech Trees,

You are certainly quite low down.


Ditto.

Quote:
You lied the 1st instance by claiming that I said that the poly is a devastating interrogation tool.


Nope.

Quote:
You lied the 2nd instance by claiming that I said CM results in a ruined poly test.


Nope.  

Quote:
You are lying again by claiming that I admit not knowing anything about the topic I am discussing.


We seem to have differing opinions then over what

Quote:
George, I've no idea what's the DoDPI doctrine is about


means. Could you clarify what 'I have no idea' means?

Quote:
I know what I say and say only what I know.  I don't pretend to be a know-all.  Have some respect in a forum like this.  Don't twist what people say.


To the best of my knowledge, I haven't twisted or distorted anything you have written here. I have asked for clarifications on what you wrote, and you continuously reply that I am twisting your words, putting words in your mouth, lying, etc.

Respect is earned, Mr. Ngoo, not bestowed. I've been pretty civil in my discourse with you, and the fact that you take such umbrage at the slightest misunderstanding of whatever point you are trying to make is obfuscating the discussion even further. May I suggest climbing down off your high horse and answering my questions?

Quote:
I appreciate the fact that your country is a great democracy and don't cane it's citizens for drawing on walls.  But that does not mean I prefer it to my country's system.   Check what that kid did to his dad.  When I was in your country not too long ago, all the folks introduced to me said they wished for a system like ours.


I'd be curious to see the statistics concerning American citizens seeking to emigrate from here to Singapore. But, perhaps that is a topic for another discussion.

Quote:
I wholly agree with you that a man is presumed innocent until proven guilty and take my hats off for those who exercise their rights and refuse a poly test.  I cannot say the same for those who 'volunteer' for a test, promise to co-operate and then end up doing everything else except co-operate.   My view is that these are dishonest cowards.  They fall into the same category of people who twist people's words.


How do you feel about those people in authority deceiving citizens in order to gain their trust, lying to them about the methodology of polygraphy, and then subjecting those persons to an unscientific process that is as accurate as flipping a coin? A process which, if 'failed', in many cases dooms the citizen to unwarranted persecution?  Does that sit well with you?
  

"It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government." ~ Thomas Paine
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #17 - Apr 18th, 2002 at 8:38pm
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Mr. Ngoo,

First, let me apologize. I never intended to offend you, your country or anything else.  I was merely repeating the self-deprecating humor I heard from Singaporeans regarding the country's extensive system of "fines."  Virtually everywhere I went in Singapore, vendors sold T-shirts, postcards, etc. with listings of infractions and their corresponding "fines."  (For example: Vandalism = Cane & Jail.) Most carried the title:"Singapore: The city of Fine."  I'm sure you've seen them.  Believe me, no sarcasm was intended.   Your country's strict laws are the reason I felt completely at ease to walk the streets or ride the MRT at 2am by myself. (Can't do that in LA.)  I think our respective country's can learn a lot from each other.

You are correct that anonymity typically makes a person's claims unverifiable and one-sided, but I have a good reason to stay anonymous and intentionally vague.  If my identity were revealed, I would most certainly be disqualified from the police application process.

The City has an almost unconditional belief in the polygraph and will disqualify someone who (stupidly) admits to countermeasure use. Their belief is that countermeasure use means you must be lying about something.  (I simply used them to avoid a second false positive.)  Likewise, suing my first polygrapher would also most certainly result in my non-hire.  (For some reason, employers don't like to be sued by applicants.) Plus, applicants are forced to sign a waiver that precludes you from suing your polygrapher.  You see, that way, the polygrapher can accuse you of anything they want without ANY reprecussions.

Trust me, I'm not trying to air a grievance, I'm just saying that I successfully employed countermeasures (which weren't difficult to master) and don't believe the assertions that they are easy to detect.  The point of this website is that we shouldn't be relying on polygraphs in the first place; polygraphs simply don't work.
  
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akuma2664666
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #18 - Apr 20th, 2002 at 10:06am
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I just read your post to Mr. Ngoo and I wondered which tactic you used and how were you able to verify their effectiveness before you took the test? Did you use the sphinctre exercise alone or a combination of countermeasures? If I get a second shot at the test I will be using them. since I found out about my failure and told my family members and acquaintances about it they all think that i have used drugs....this really sucks.
  
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the boys
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #19 - Apr 22nd, 2002 at 2:36am
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Sorry, I guess we were sleeping.....just noticed that Drew Richardson is identified as "top FBI polygraph expert"....just how did he rise to such a lofty position????....I have it on good information that he conducted few polygraph examinations in the field and caused the FBI more problems then he was worth...and they ultimately removed him from his polygraph position...I think th term thatw as used was that he was considered a "pariah".  Maybe you might want to consider removing his "credentials" on your homepage?
Dr. Drew C. Richardson,
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #20 - Apr 22nd, 2002 at 5:25am
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The boys,

Quote:
just noticed that Drew Richardson is identified as "top FBI polygraph expert"....just how did he rise to such a lofty position


Dr. Richardson’s credentials to evaluate and comment on polygraphy are unassailable. He earned a doctorate in physiology (a legitimate scientific field with extreme relevance to polygraphy) from George Washington Medical Center in 1991. His doctoral dissertation research, which pertained to polygraphy, was funded by the NSA. Lastly, Dr. Richardson is a graduate of the DoDPI basic polygraph examiner’s course and has worked in the bureau’s now defunct polygraph research unit. This certainly sets him apart from the pack among polygraphers. As you know, one can become a polygraph examiner with no college education and as little as eight weeks of training (even barber college is 26 weeks long in most states).

Quote:
I have it on good information that he conducted few polygraph examinations in the field. . .


And your point is? A scientist studying astrology would not need to spend years staring into crystal balls and flipping Tarot cards before declaring that astrology is a farce. Legitimate standardized tests do not depend heavily on the skill of the person scoring the test. He conducted enough examinations to realize that polygraphy was a fraud.

Quote:
[Dr. Richardson] caused the FBI more problems then he was worth...and they ultimately removed him from his polygraph position...

The only “problem” Dr. Richardson caused the FBI was to draw attention to fraudulent and unethical behavior.  After leaving polygraph research (I’m not sure of the circumstances under which he left), Dr. Richardson went on to become the chief of the FBI’s Hazardous Materials Response Unit. This seems like a pretty substantial accomplishment, especially for someone who in your opinion “caused problems.” Obviously someone in the bureau felt that he had redeeming qualities.

Quote:
I think th term thatw as used was that he was considered a "pariah." [grammatical error w/ period outside trailing quotation fixed]  


I’m sure that the polygraphers at the FBI (and at other agencies) referred to him as this and far worse.

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Maybe you might want to consider removing his "credentials" on your homepage?

Don't hold your breath.
  
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George W. Maschke
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #21 - Apr 22nd, 2002 at 8:01am
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theboys,

Dr. Richardson was only a "pariah" to the extent that he was retaliated against for having had the moral courage to speak truth to power on such matters as polygraphy.

If you good ol' boys in the federal polygraph community doubt his expertise, then why don't you accept his polygraph countermeasure challenge?

Cowards.
  

George W. Maschke
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the boys
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #22 - Apr 22nd, 2002 at 1:14pm
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Just as you and your cronies demand of all those who post on you site George/Gino/et al....ANSWER THE QUESTION!!!...How did Drew get to be the/a "top FBI polygraph expert".....was he in charge of the program?........(no)......was the most experienced?.....(no).....was he the most senior polygraph examiner....(no)......was he the authorized and appointed spokesman fo the agency?........(no).....well, let's see....he WAS (by virtue of rank) a Supervisory Special Agent....but he did not supervise any polygraph examiners.....he did work in the research lab at Quantico....you got us there....along with Dr. Podlesney.....maybe Drew can tell you why that happened.....not challenging his academic credentials...Jeez!  Gino don't get soooooooooooooo defensive......challenging his moniker "top FBI polyraph expert" status.....we just wanted to know how he reached that lofty position......your own site talks about exposing fraud.....all or nothing...let's go!.....and don't get us started on morals.....right Drew? Wink
  
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George W. Maschke
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #23 - Apr 22nd, 2002 at 2:43pm
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the boys,

To answer your question (forgive me for having mistaken it for a rhetorical one), it was my decision to refer to Dr. Richardson as the FBI's top polygraph expert, and I did so on the strength of his qualifications as a research physiologist who understands the scientific principles underlying polygraphy.

  

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beech trees
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #24 - Apr 22nd, 2002 at 3:33pm
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Would the United States Senate Committee on the Judiciary call before their august body slackers, rookies, and n'er do wells?

I find this line of attack really pathetic and more than a little sad.

During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. -- George Orwell
  

"It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government." ~ Thomas Paine
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theboys
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #25 - Apr 22nd, 2002 at 8:40pm
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Boy....if we were Drew...we would be upset to hear someone describe us as " slackers, rookies, and n'er do wells"....that isn't what we said.....and surely that isn't what you meant...now was it beech trees?  ...and oh, by the way.....perhaps you should learn the process of how one gets to be called to OFFER testimony before ANY legislative body....we assure you no one looked out there in the hinterland, saw Drew and said "we gotta have him". Grin
  
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beech trees
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #26 - Apr 22nd, 2002 at 11:47pm
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Quote:
Boy....if we were Drew...we would be upset to hear someone describe us as " slackers, rookies, and n'er do wells"....that isn't what we said.....and surely that isn't what you meant


Your inference is that Dr. Richardson's credentials with regard to the pseudo-science of polygraphy aren't sufficient. Certainly Dr. Richardson should take umbrage at anyone labeling him as a slacker, rookie, or n'er do well-- fortunately I never did, as my post clearly illustrates.

I find it curious that you refer to yourself in the plural.

Quote:
...now was it beech trees?  ...and oh, by the way.....perhaps you should learn the process of how one gets to be called to OFFER testimony before ANY legislative body....we assure you no one looked out there in the hinterland, saw Drew and said "we gotta have him". Grin


Why don't you tell us how that process took place, since you seem to be inferring you're quite 'in the know' about the whole affair?
  

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ARIZONA
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #27 - May 19th, 2002 at 3:25am
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Just a little tidbit, from someone in the know; Drew NEVER ran a single operational test in the field.  I will bet there are a lot of people out there who do not even know that. Get a more credible expert....puleeze!
  
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Drew Richardson
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #28 - May 19th, 2002 at 5:15am
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Arizona,

Although not so, I truly do wish that what you have stated were correct.  To my chagrin, I must shamefully admit that I did conduct a handful of CQT polygraph exams in connection with Bureau field cases following the completion of DoDPI's basic examiner course.   I must further admit that I did this knowingly and willingly and did so fully aware (as a result of my DoDPI training and experience) of polygraphy’s theoretical shortcomings.  My basis for any commentary regarding polygraphy on this site or elsewhere is not my admitted limited operational polygraph experience, but involvement in the world of recognized serious science (chemistry and forensic toxicology) which has allowed for the comparisons with polygraphy (polygraph screening in particular) which apparently are so embarrassing and troublesome for you and your colleagues.  In fact, those who I have looked to for leadership over the years in this effort, e.g., David Lykken, Bill Iacono, Leonard Saxe, John Furedy, and others (all luminaries in the worlds of psychology/psychophysiology including two former advisors to DoDPI and two past Presidents of the Society for Psychophysiological Research) have, to their credit, made invaluable contributions to the peer reviewed literature and our understanding of polygraphy’s shortcomings without ever having conducted a single field polygraph examination amongst the group.  I claim no leadership role in this effort, but perhaps if you do, you might care to reveal your identity along with your educational and other credentials including your professional affiliations so that we might examine and compare them with those of the gentlemen I have named.  If you would simply care to discuss further issues related to the substance of polygraphy (validity, scientific control, susceptibility to countermeasures, etc), as I have done with others, I would be happy to engage in such an exchange with you…
« Last Edit: May 19th, 2002 at 5:42am by Drew Richardson »  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #29 - May 19th, 2002 at 8:24am
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Drew,

You wrote:
Quote:
In fact, those who I have looked to for leadership over the years in this effort, e.g., David Lykken, Bill Iacono, Leonard Saxe, John Furedy, and others (all luminaries in the worlds of psychology/psychophysiology including two former advisors to DoDPI and two past Presidents of the Society for Psychophysiological Research) have, to their credit, made invaluable contributions to the peer reviewed literature and our understanding of polygraphy’s shortcomings without ever having conducted a single field polygraph examination amongst the group.



1. How do each of these individuals purposed polygraph should be used? (i.e.  format, setting, etc.…)


2. In their purposed use, how accurate and scientifically valid is polygraph?

3.  More importantly, how would you see polygraph used and how accurate and scientifically valid would polygraph be in that use?

You wrote:
Quote:
If you would simply care to discuss further issues related to the substance of polygraphy (validity, scientific control, susceptibility to countermeasures, etc), as I have done with others, I would be happy to engage in such an exchange with you…



I have debated the issue of polygraph's scientific validity with both George and you.  Aside from the differing opinions you and I have on definitions of the scientific terminology, the debate seemingly has concluded with George unable to provide credible evidence to support his conflicting view of polygraph's validity.  Polygraph has most certainly been shown to have high validity, when used in criminal specific issue testing.
« Last Edit: May 20th, 2002 at 7:36am by J.B. McCloughan »  

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