Apart from passing or failing, an "inconclusive" outcome is also possible. See Chapter 3 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector for more on polygraph procedure.

If a Examiner tells you that you did not pass the polygraph, and you say I told the truth I have no idea I could failed the polygraph. Then the examiner say's. I did not say you failed the polygraph, I said you did not pass the polygraph. What is the difference. Thank you!

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At this time, a little more than half of the Polygraph Place Bulletin Board Private Forum has been made available for direct browsing. 18 of the 33 index pages, comprising 720 message threads from 13 February 2008 to 20 May 2013 are now available for review:

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A Peak of Tension (POT) test is a poorly designed concealed information test (CIT).  Unlike David Lykken's Guilty Knowledge Test (GKT) format, the POT involves QUESTION presentation in KNOWN (to the examinee) SEQUENCES, which renders the individual test items NOT independent of one another and therefore having the test results not being amenable to the normal statistical analysis of a properly designed CIT.

A GKT can be poorly constructed and confounded as well by asking questions as opposed to presenting subject areas and alternative answers which are repeated by the examinee.  If a GKT is constructed to involve questions answered with alternative answers repeated by the examinee, in effect, one has created and confounded a CIT with a lie detection test (something which has no validity in its own right and is not made better by confusing/confounding with a CIT).

I think "Peak of Tension" is a more apt name. "Guilty Knowledge" is an implication; POT more correctly describes some shift in psychological stress, the root cause of which cannot be precisely determined.

Although it's not without weaknesses and vulnerabilities, I don't think the GKT is quackery.

Dr Maschke

With respect to my last post, I did not refer to Lykken's GKT as a lie detection technique, but simply as a polygraph technique.  So, Dr Maschke perhaps you would be so kind as to my answer, is Lykken's GKT a valid scientific test or is it too quackery?

Pailryder,

With respect to Getrealalready's last post, note that Lykken's Guilty Knowledge Test (GKT) is not a lie detection test.

getrealalready

Are you arguing that all polygraph techniques are quackery?  Do you evaluate David Lykken's GKT as quackery as well?

Pailryder,

Your words on this board may be true or false, relevant or irrelevant, meaningful or not, etc., but in the end they are just words. Your (or anybody else's) practice of lie detection and the representation of same as a valid diagnostic test is unadulterated quackery.

getrealalready

So, I've practiced crude quackery for more than thirty years, but my posts don't quack?  How could that be?

Pailryder,

My reference to quackery has nothing to do with your posts but with the practice of polygraphy (lie detection) which is nothing but quackery in your hands or any other...

getrealalready

I take your point.  Dr Maschke has never, to my knowledge, prevented anyone on the anti side from posting whatever they wished and I did not intend to imply otherwise.  But Dr Maschke has always, it seems to me, taken pride in maintaining the site as source of free information for all, and thus avoided the charge, often made against other sites, that they are all about self promotion and money. 

I challenge you to review my postings and cite specific examples where you feel I have engaged in quackery.

Pailryder,

That which you say is true; in times past Mr. Williams has made inappropriate comments on this board and may well have slandered and/or threatened Dr. Maschke.  

That, however, is irrelevant to the point that I was making...which is...I see no evidence whatsoever, that at any time since the inception of AntiPolygraph.org that Dr. Maschke, even while being attacked, would have taken any steps to prevent the posting of anything that Mr. Williams now says on this board.

I believe that is the case because, although that which Mr. Williams says may well be promotional and/or self serving, it is largely true and accurate with regards to his efforts to debunk polygraphy and to warn and assist those who may be victims of this rather crude quackery.

getrealalready

I find irony in the fact that Doug and George settled their differences at this particular time when Doug's for profit business is receiving such scrutiny.   I am sure you have followed this board long enough to recall that Doug once posted a glowing review of his own book, under a different name, of course, and once offered a fist fight, with a promise to whip  George's ass, as a way to resolve their issues.

Pailryder,

Can you specifically site an example of something that Mr. Williams has said recently that you believe he could not have said on this site anytime since the creation of this website? If so, can you site an example of where he was prevented or warned about posting such a thing?

pailryder wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 10:46am:


Seems the proper answer is "yes".

Well, they should hide!

Before I understood, what a polygraph can actually do, or not do, I was exceptionally biased!

If I heard a person failed, without any question, I thought that person was a lier, until it happened to my closest confident and friend.

He is a fine upstanding man, and will tell the truth, no matter who it hurts or how much it hurts him to do so.   He has years of experience on the job, had taken polygraphs before and passed.   

He is loyal to his family, associates and friends, and hasn’t got one negative reference in his file!   He doesn’t go out drinking with his buddies after work, goes straight home to his family, every single night.   

Is he perfect, no, he isn’t, no one is, but, he is a fine upstanding man, who is a fabulous role model, is one of the best on the job!

He decided to apply for a better paying job, in another state.   The examiner was extremely smug…I only wish I could relay my whole story to you, but cannot, just to show you how corrupt some of these systems are.   

We were all devastated at the outcome of his polygraph.  He failed and failed again, and again, to the point that it caused us all great anguish and loss of hope for the honest person.   

What these cocky examiners neglect to understand is…

When  you call someone a liar that is an honest person, it not only effects them in a very negative way, (i.e. loss of confidence, despair, frustration, depression, fear of the polygraph machine from that point on, anger, and great loss of pay increase, and a better career)  you examiners affect his/her immediate family (wife, husband, children) but also they’re extended family and friends…and there is no question in my mind what-so-ever, that he is and was telling the truth…He prides himself on walking the straight and narrow the best he can, due to his job and the implementations of negative behavior.   

I believe the most difficult part for an honest person is, to be told they are being deceptive, losing they’re chances at a better paying job.  I have no question in my mind, what-so-ever, that he would be an asset to any department…and he had plenty of solid references, from people he had worked for and with.   

He also told me that, he was biased at one time, when someone told him, they failed the polygraph, until it recently happened to him, and yet, never before failed one?  Now, he has constant problems with them, and even though he knows he is telling the truth, the great embarrassment he now feels, b/c there are people out there who are biased and believe in the machine.

Let me tell you, that while there are probably some good examiners out there, there are also extremely cruel, biased, power hungry examiners out there who do not give one iota about the people whose lives they are destroying.   And what is really wrong with this system is, if they are going to be giving polygraphs, then, if a candidate applies with another department in that same area/state, it should never be allowed & totally against the law, for a polygraph examiner to ask that candidate, “did you ever take a polygraph before?”  “Did you pass or fail?” “What was the question you failed?”  It should also be against the law for the examiners to phone each other, and discuss the candidate’s failure (s).  Tell me, that isn’t biased.  Any candidate that goes in for a polygraph examination, should walk into it, with a clean slate!

I am certain, in my friend’s case, the examiners were working together on this, and no one will ever convince me otherwise.   

To me, this is a corrupt way to utilize power that shouldn’t be given to these examiners…and to rely on a machine…is subjective, primitive and an extremely imperfect way to decide one’s fate.  Shame on all of you out there who have been instrumental in ruining someone’s career!  The despair and hopelessness you’ve caused each and every one of his family members.  That is why I say, someday, this is going to come back and bite you right in the butt, but good as I do believe in karma, and what goes around comes around.  I cannot believe these examiners can actually go home and continue with their lives, knowing full well, that they’ve destroyed someone’s life/career!  How can you sleep at night?   

Yanno, back in the day, before the courts outlawed them, I cannot begin to imagine, how many so called criminals were institutionalized that should not have been!  How many lives, were and still are ruined, whole families ruined (mothers, fathers, sisters, sons, daughters and wives, not to mention the so called criminal, due to the polygraph!

Well it is the same thing in the career field.  When you fail someone who isn’t lying, you not only ruin that candidate’s career, you also destroy his entire family!  And I’m not just talking about his wife & children, but his mother/father, friends, all who care about that human being are devastated…especially when they know that he has done his very best all his life, to be loyal to his job and doesn’t house a negative letter or report in his portfolio.    Who was it that said, “Good guys finish last?”   

I cannot believe how corrupt this system is…and that the people who give these polygraphs are just as corrupt, “How can they fall asleep at night?” Knowing full well, that they have set someone up, due to their own personal beliefs?

How would they feel if someone ruined them like that?   

I have a work related friend, whose daughter gives polygraphs.   They hooked her up, and on a question that she lied about, the machine said she was telling the truth, and on another question she told the truth about, it said she was lying?  How can any law abiding reputable department in this country put an ounce of faith in this primitive way of deciding someone’s character, and to boot, without doing any background checks?   

This to me, is an extremely primitive way to avoid doing background checks and your actually paying people to give these bogus polygraphs, not to mention ruining lives, filling them with hopelessness and rejection, when all they’re years of experience and loyalty to their careers and fellow officers mean nothing?   SERIOUSLY, A MACHINE, that is so totally inaccurate?    

I just cannot fathom the lack of intelligence here, it’s a no brainer!  This is 2013, not 1948!

Ex Member wrote on Aug 1^st, 2013 at 5:07am:



I noticed that...  I guess they decided to heed the advice given by Abraham Lincoln when he said, "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." 

And even Mr. T Replacement ran away and hid like a scared little rabbit when he was challenged to defend the absurdity of his "chosen profession"!   

Sully wrote on Aug 1^st, 2013 at 12:00pm:



You are right, the polygraph is not a "lie detector" - nor is it a "test"!  In fact, it is nothing but a sick joke!  It is an interrogation, an intimidation, an inquisition, a trial by ordeal - and the polygraph operator is the judge, jury, and executioner!  If you are found guilty of lying, there is no appeal from his decision!  And to make matters worse, even if you tell the complete truth you will probably still fail!  

The polygraph test is the most important test anyone will ever take.  Until you take one, you have no idea how traumatic and grueling it can be - it is that way for a reason.  The polygraphers want you to be so frightened that you "spill your guts".  Some federal agencies give bonuses to polygraph operators that get the most damaging admissions! In fact, many people are so intimidated that they make statements that the polygrapher will use to disqualify or incriminate them -  some people are so frightened that they confess to things they haven't even done! 

And you are also right that the thugs who run these "tests" don't give a damn about all the people whose lives they have ruined.   

I have been reading this forum for a few weeks now...I am not in law enforcement, but I do know someone whose life a polygrapher broke...the story of which I will not go into...however, these polygraphers ruin lives...and after reading the comments of one in here, and seeing his attitude, and how he articulates himself, my only emotional response is shaking my head in disbelief and shock, thinking, (and my life/career, future and the future of my family solely lies in this person's hands?) My God, this country is so corrupt...(call me naieve, but I used to believe in a world that was basically honest and forth right) that words like integrity and loyalty meant something....there are men and women out there who spent their lives dreaming of a career in law enforcement, simply b/c they wanted to make a difference, who have molded themselves into human beings that any parent would be proud to have their children look up to them as role models...people whose love for their job have been loyal and honest to their work for many years, with a clean portfolio, whose whole career lies within the hands of these examiners...whose lives they've ruined...just because?  Unbelievable...and even more sickening, is the fact that they don't bat an eyelash at that fact....a perfect yet sad example of the power they have...I feel nothing but disgust, and do believe in Karma....

Lets face it, no one wants to loose their jobs, no one, however, if GM suceeds along with all the rest on his site, and for the record, I pray they do, these cocky examiners who call themselves human beings, would be out of a job, now wouldn't they?   

GM, thank you for the time, you've put into this...for this website, and the compassion you feel for so many victims who have been truthful, loyal and devoted to their jobs.

Ever since the appearance of the Polygraph Place forum on this site, it seems that most of the polygraph operators went into hiding (save those with recent testosterone replacement).

I don't recall ever claiming to have worked at the Pentagon.  All of my posts are still here, as far as I know.  If anyone can find where I claimed to work (or to have worked) at the Pentagon, I'd love to see it.