polyvsa wrote on May 27^th, 2011 at 12:49pm:


hey i want to buy avsa pro can somebody help me.

Wow, Bill_brown and stefano got so put in their place by polyvsa it's ridiculous and borders on world class. I can't believe bill would resort to quoting out of context that crap and putting it in yellow, not to mention the rest of his obvious biased banter. 

Thanks for entertaining me you two, it's great to see the power of human weakness in action. I had to comment even though it's been a year. Cliff, if you ever read this: I just found out about you but you really impressed me, good job.

I don't see how they can tell you that the machine confirms a lie and that your "confession" produced from that will hold up in court.

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Stop talking to the police, get a criminal defense lawyer now, and do not speak with the police again without your lawyer by your side. And never submit at a lie detector "test" of any kind. If you don't already have a lawyer, Martindale's on-line directory may be helpful for finding one near you:

http://www.martindale.com

I have personally encountered this wonderful device and now am facing a "confession" from this machine, when I clearly never said I did anything but after a half hour or so of being told I was a liar.  I said maybe I am a liar and now am facing a D felony.  WHAT DO I DO?

Egocentric bias occurs when people claim more responsibility for themselves for the results of a joint action than an outside observer would credit them.

Narcissism is the personality trait of egotism, vanity, conceit, or simple selfishness. 

From a news article in your country.  

Alleged deception in a book - somewhat ironically about uncovering deception - is at the centre of a spat between two top forensic investigators. 
The recently published book, Truth Extraction: How to Read Between the Lines, is described as "an essential tool for all to whom truth matters" and carries the endorsement of Carte Blanche TV personalities George Mazarakis and Derek Watts. 
It is co-authored by communications expert Malcolm Russell, formerly of Highveld Stereo and Radio 702. 
But it is the second co-author, South African fraud investigator Clifton "Cliff" Coetzee, who stands accused of plagiarising the work of his American colleague, Nathan Gordon. 



Seems both terms apply to you Cliff.  Don't throw stones if you live in a glass house.  I believe further discourse would be of no benefit and only detract from my own credibility.   

Bill,
The apa does not abide by its own rules. It is a self serving club. The APA's secretariat recommended an Instructor "very highly" many years ago and then ducked and dived for 2 years before issuing cerificates and only then after threat of legal action.

The apa ignored the unethical and dishonest activities of its local chapter pre 2000.

So, yes. Spot on. The APA 'rules' are for fools.

Stefano,
Google: Narcissist.

polyvsa wrote on May 29^th, 2011 at 10:29am:

Sometimes it takes a jerk to get someone to show their true colors which you kaleidoscopically accomplished with this eloquent posting.

Polyvsa, 

I will inform you you are not "Certified" by APA.  You were a member in 2000.  The "Certificate" you received from APA is a membership certificate that identifies you as a member, it certifies you in nothing, it is meant for purposes of displaying your membership. 

I am not sure of the Lafayette Certification, I think that is an instructors certification which demonstrates you are proficient in the use of their equipment only and can teach others how to use their program. 

You seem to use these "Certificates" as advertisement. They are all expired and only show you attended training over 10 years ago.  Your lapse in membership in the APA demonstrates you are not willing to abide by the rules of the APA.  

I have been a member of the APA for over 25 years.  My membership entitles me to attend seminars and obtain updated information in polygraph.  I also participate in on going research.  

You are in fact "One Dimensional", it is called ego centric (sp).  

I will apologize for saying you have the appearance of being a fraud.  I do have issues with your postings and advertisements on this board.  This web site is for discussion of polygraph and vsa, not for advertisement of ones products.  The administrators of course will make that decision, not I.  

I expect Stefano will respond to your demeaning statement about his postings.  

Regards

Stefano,

You sound like a total jerk.

Internet marketing is one of the most effective ways to get a product name into the marketplace.

Now, even a dickhead has heard of it.

Bill,
I resigned from APA in 2000 when they did the vsa cleansing rituals.

I resigned from pasa shorlty thereafter. pasa management was guilty of gross unethical conduct, which I reported to the apa in much detail....apa did nothing. Therefore no reason to continue membership with either.

I had in fact been testing with vsa and polygraph since 1985.

Gordon Barland requested that I remove my reference to being apa certified. As I have an apa certificate with my  name on it, it means that I was certified. Ceasing membership does not invalidate the fact that I was certified.
Therefore I refused. My website does not state that I am a member...it states "certificates of graduation and membership received".....which I have. 

Now where is the fraud ?


I am a licensed insurance consultant. I consult both as a broker and at other times as a fraud consultant. I have trained insurance investigators and police investigators in forensic investigation techniques since late 80's.

I was a member of the Assoc of Certified Fraud Examiners Tx and SA for years. I let my memberships lapse.

LIc = Lafayette Instrument Company.
I completed an Instructors course there in 1998.
Chris Faucett will remember me.

WRT to SAPA (actually PASA) their anti-vsa stance leaves me cold. They merely cut and paste from APA website.
I dont think there is 1 amongst them that could spell research. Their website lists President: Daan Bekker...well God bless his soul, the man passed away several years ago.
PASA is run by a zombie it seems.

I am not ONE Dimensional Bill.
I did develop AVSA with Alpes. I am the primary distributor. I am VSA Instructor and based on my Certification from LIC, I am also permitted by law to instruct polygraph in SA, which I do. I teach forensic investigation techniques. I have written a book on DOD (sold out 3 print runs) and have been asked by publisher to write another - nearly finished.
I am a licensed insurance consultant in 4 categories. I have a restaurant with an adjoining theatre.
I buy and sell cut diamonds. My wife and I manufacture jewellery. We buy and sell antique furniture. 

Now that I have corrected you, I think an apology is in order.

Polyvsa, 

I did some research and found studies your fellow examiners in SA published on the web site for South African Polygraph Association.  It is remarkable the studies of your SAPA report VSA has no value for detection of deception.  (I was unable to find you as a member of this association)

You are in fact not a member of the American Polygraph Association as you advertise on your web site.  Your primary work is "Short Term Insurance Consultant, Commercial & Personal"  You advertise as a Fraud Examiner in this field.  

The picture I am getting is one that is not favorable and sounds close to fraud.  Possibly you should correct the errors on your own web site.  I am sure the American Polygraph Association will be interested in your advertising membership in the APA when in fact you are not a member.  If I am in error please feel free to correct me. 

polyvsa wrote on May 27^th, 2011 at 12:49pm:

If the product had any real intrinsic validity, the codeveloper would not have to peddle it on websites.

I would be pleased to view your product and possibly evaluate it.  I have said nothing regarding CVSA, VSA, AVSA PRO 1.8  or associated products that is demeaning in any way. 

I did ask about relevant studies.  I appear to be correct in my statement regarding your being a salesman for the product, you are in fact "Co-Developer" of this product.  

What is "LIC circa 1987"?  I'm old and not connecting with that phrase.  I also sent an email.  Your statement regarding the studies on VSA reflect you have conducted none.  The technology has been studied by many, only the manufactures have found it to be a "Valid" tool.   

I have no experience or training with your product and I have looked at the Department of Defense evaluations.   

Bill,

I am co-developer of the product.

Can you mention ONE polygraph study that was not industry funded ? (mnfr-> apa -> fed govt or uni ) I dont think so according to NAS 2003.

I am not a greenhorn btw. I have been in the PDD industry for +25 yrs and hold a poly instr cert from LIC circa 1987.

AVSA is based on original vsa - Lippold tremor. Unlike lvas and other vsa's, AVSA has a neural network scoring processor trained by scoring and input of human expertise.

I am satisfied that avsa is as reliable as poly in the hands of a skilled examiner. 'Skilled' being a prerequisite.

AVSA as a product needs no study just as axciton, lic, limestone etc need no product study. The latter mnfrs rely on existing poly studies and in turn avsa relies on existing vsa studies.

I have no quarrel with tecgnologies. I have quarrel with ignorant examiners who claim to be professionals. Really, if one has not tried different tech's oneself, then one should not badmouth that which one does not know.

If you are actually interested in the reliability of AVSA I would be happy to provide you with a trial copy.

Dont be one dimensional in your approach to DOD. Use all the skills and technology available to you.

My eml is visible in my profile if you want to take up the offer.

Be Nice.

polyvsa, 

You sound like a salesman for the product.  Where are the supporting studies for your product.  Polygraph does have many, I would like to review the AVSA PRO 1.8 studies.  

Regards

polyvsa wrote on May 17^th, 2011 at 12:30pm:

Please provide your empirical data to support this statement.

Hi Twoblock,

If you are referring to LVA, which I suspect Vipre is using, then I must agree with you. I tested LVA products over the years and found them to have no reliability. To obtain a confession from a guilty examinee, as you well know, is not rocket science...all you need is a tool ( voodoo doll, lva, pin cushion, smoke, mirrors, laptop) that ostensibly advises the examiner there is guilt.....invest some time...and the confession will come.

A polygraph in the 'right hands' (there are many in the wrong hands....is a reliable DOD technology. The system / process is not infallible. In fact it has more inbuilt frailties than one would care to admit.

VSA ( AVSA PRO 1,8) in the 'right hands' is an equally reliable technology. In fact it is far superior to conventional vsa as it controls cadence (onset delay) automatically; rollsover question sequence ..preventing incorrect question call...just as polygraph does, and applies the scoring of experts automatically to every word captured.
There are far less opportunities for an examiner to mess up.
There is no opportunity for examinee to effect CM's

When one calls any DOD pseudoscience, then you must put them all in the same box, as none are hard, cold science.
They are ALL semi-scientific.

But they're all we have besides a magic wand and the odd voodoo doll.

Good Luck

Vipreman

While checking out a mining property in Columbia. SA, I saw an old woman with a doll about 10 inches long from toe to head. Laying beside the doll were needles that ranged from about 1 inch to about 3 inches. I saw her stick a 2 inch needle in the doll's upper arm. When I got back to camp, one of the men who was hired as a tool carrier was rolling around on the ground holding his arm. You see, she had told him that he was going to be punished for eloping with her daughter. He believed in voo doo too. Isn't the CVSA operated thusly?

Of course they would admit that, its not designed to detect lies. I am a voice stress examiner and will tell you that anyone wno says that it detects lies doesnt know what they are talking about. Voice stress is a tool and I use it frequently. I use it to help the people I test and I have used it to obtain confessions for crimes. You have to know how to use it and when to use it. It is like everything else and gets abused ALOT. VSA is only a portion of my interaction with test subjects.

winchester wrote on Nov 6^th, 2006 at 9:10pm:


The comparison with the urban-legendary copy machine is an apt one. However, it is one that is seemingly lost on those agencies that rely on this quack device to screen applicants. You still run a significant risk of being falsely branded a liar and wrongly disqualified from the hiring process.

so basically it is kinda like the old joke where the cops hook the guy up to a copy machine to get a confession?

Stick with your story and you will be fine?

Note that although the National Institute of Truth Verification has admitted in court that the Computer Voice Stress Analyzer "is not capable of lie detection," it continues to represent the opposite to the public via its website, which provides illustrations that purport to show the difference between lying and truth-telling and avers that "[t]he CVSA™ gets to the truth and accurately identifies deception, or validates statements in the shortest possible time..."

http://www.cvsa1.com/product.php

The National Institute of Truth Verification, which markets the Computerized Voice Stress Analyzer (CVSA), has admitted in a court filing that their device "is not capable of lie detection." John Tuohy reports this in an Indianapolis Star article titled, "Voice analyzers draw praise, flak":

https://web.archive.org/web/20041220165055/http://www.truthinjustice.org/CVSA.ht...

Here is the relevant excerpt:

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