Ways to Counter the Relevant/Irrelevant Technique?

MissionPoly-ban · Mar 26, 2002, 03:21 AM

Could someone please explain to me what the best way is to try and pass the Relevant/Irrelevant Technique, and why it is believed that your suggested method might work?

I know all about countermeasures, and how to use them, but I don't understand the theory behind the Rel/Irr Technique, and so I don't understand where the countermeasures should be used.

I have heard suggestions that one should either: Use countermeasures on the Irrelevant questions, or: Use countermeasures on a different set of relevant questions on each seperate chart.

Is there any evidence that one of the methods above works better than the other?

Could someone please explain to me what the rational is behind augmenting ones responses to a different set of relevant questions on each chart?

The reason I am inquiring is because I might be facing a rel/irr test in the near future, and I would hate to use some method that has no basis or support.

Any response would be greatly appreciated,

Netninio

PDD-Fed · May 28, 2002, 05:49 PM

::)Netninio,

In case you are wondering why the operators of this site have not responded to your post, is because there are absolutely NO POINT COUNTERMEASURES that effectively defeat an R&I test and they know it. Have you considered telling the truth?

PDD-Fed

beech trees · May 28, 2002, 07:29 PM

Quote from: PDD-Fed on May 28, 2002, 05:49 PM
::)Netninio,

In case you are wondering why the operators of this site have not responded to your post, is because there are absolutely NO POINT COUNTERMEASURES that effectively defeat an R&I test and they know it. Have you considered telling the truth?

Yes or no, would telling the truth guarantee he passes?

Yes or no, will the polygrapher tell the truth to the examinee before, during and after his exam?

What is a word for someone who insists others tell the truth whilst he or she lies to others?

h-y-p-o-c-r-i-t-e

Dave, aka Beech Trees

PDD-Fed · May 30, 2002, 03:36 PM

"Yes or no, would telling the truth guarantee he passes?"

Does getting on an airplane guarantee you will arrive at your destination safely??? Does wearing a condom guarantee your girlfriend won't get pregnant? Does writing posts to this web-site guarantee some police agency will see the "error of their ways" and come crawling on their knees to offer you a job?

"Yes or no, will the polygrapher tell the truth to the examinee before, during and after his exam?"

I always do. By the way, I do not administer some of the procedures you all attack with such blistering rage. I lay out how the R&I test works, review the questions (no hidden meanings) and I then leave it entirely up to the person taking the exam...I don't have to lie...Hell, I even tell the examinee that the purpose of the acquintance test (when I chose to run it) is to convince him the exam works. Then if he should happen to fail the exam, I ask him to tell me what is on his mind. If the information disqualifies him, so be it...No hard feelings...Next?

"What is a word for someone who insists others tell the truth whilst he or she lies to others?

h-y-p-o-c-r-i-t-e"

What is the word for someone who must be so engulfed with anger and self pity that he spends his days and nights venting his hurt feelings on a website run by others who just happen to be as frustrated and bitter as he?

l-o-s-e-r

PDD-Fed

George W. Maschke · May 30, 2002, 04:28 PM

PDD-Fed,

You wrote in part:

QuoteBy the way, I do not administer some of the procedures you all attack with such blistering rage.

Which procedures do you have in mind here?

QuoteWhat is the word for someone who must be so engulfed with anger and self pity that he spends his days and nights venting his hurt feelings on a website run by others who just happen to be as frustrated and bitter as he?

l-o-s-e-r

I think if you take an objective look at what the core users of this site are doing, you'll see that it is much more than "venting...hurt feelings." Our criticisms of polygraphy are also on an intellectual level, and your continued participation in the discussions here is welcome.

beech trees · May 30, 2002, 05:26 PM

Quote from: PDD-Fed on May 30, 2002, 03:36 PM
"Yes or no, would telling the truth guarantee he passes?"

Does getting on an airplane guarantee you will arrive at your destination safely??? Does wearing a condom guarantee your girlfriend won't get pregnant? Does writing posts to this web-site guarantee some police agency will see the "error of their ways" and come crawling on their knees to offer you a job?

I see you are incapable of responding, so I will take that as a 'no'. Your specious comparisons are pure sophistry. But thank you for so clearly illustrating that the psuedo-science of polygraphy is as scientifially accurate as traveling by plane, having sex with a condom, and.... well I don't know where you're going with that last one.

I'm gainfully employed in the field of my choice. No law enforcement agency erred with regard to hiring me.

Quote"Yes or no, will the polygrapher tell the truth to the examinee before, during and after his exam?"

I always do.

You do? You inform the test subject that the stim test is nothing more than a card game, a simple flim-flam designed to convince him that you can actually divine truth or falsehood? You actually tell your test subject that you expect him to lie with regard to his responses to the Control Questions, and that you will take those responses and compare them against the reponses recorded during the Relavent Questions? You tell your test subject that polygraphy is not science, and has no more accuracy than a coin-toss? You tell your test subject that both in the eyes of science and of the law, polygraph is not a science, cannot be considered a fact finding tool, and is virtually worthless for determing truth from falsehood?

Perhaps I misjudged you then.

QuoteHell, I even tell the examinee that the purpose of the acquintance test (when I chose to run it) is to convince him the exam works.

Wow, what a pal you are. Of course, you're lying to your test subject, but when did that ever stop you before?

QuoteThen if he should happen to fail the exam, I ask him to tell me what is on his mind. If the information disqualifies him, so be it...No hard feelings...Next?

I love your attitude. Take note, potential LEO's, here is the little, little man sitting across from you (at an oblique angle, on a little wheeled chair of course).

Quote"What is a word for someone who insists others tell the truth whilst he or she lies to others?

h-y-p-o-c-r-i-t-e"

What is the word for someone who must be so engulfed with anger and self pity that he spends his days and nights venting his hurt feelings on a website run by others who just happen to be as frustrated and bitter as he? l-o-s-e-r

Anger and self-pity? Why would I be angry, or filled with self-pity Mr. PDD? I successfully used physical, psychological, and behavioral countermeasures 'gainst your brethren, sporto.

If anyone should be angry or feeling sorry for themselves, I think it would be the polygrapher whom I so easily and decisively m-a-n-i-p-u-l-a-t-e-d from start to finish, don't you agree? Why, come to think of it, YOU could have been my polygraph interrogator. What delicious irony that would be, eh?

My life is quite joyful actually, and part of that joy is derived from exposing the fraudulent pseudo-science of polygraphy and the hucksters who profit from it. People like you! Have a great day!

DEPUTY BEAR · May 30, 2002, 07:58 PM

Based on what PDD-Fed wrote in his last post, I would want him giving me the poly. I'm sorry and I don't mean to take sides but out of all the posts I have read authored by polygraphers, he seems to be the most non-biased and straight forward (if his post is honest). I don't understand however if someone "says what's on their mind" and it doesn't dq them what is the point of the poly? Or do you poly them about what they said was on their mind? If you do (the latter) then to me your post loses credibility because once again you are trusting the poly. If you don't then once again I don't understand how your tool is valuable. I do wish if the poly is to be used you would set the standard for the industry.

Fred F. · May 31, 2002, 03:11 AM

PDD- Fed

You stated above

QuoteThen if he should happen to fail the exam, I ask him to tell me what is on his mind. If the information disqualifies him, so be it...No hardfeelings...Next?

This statement leads me to believe that you NEED the examinee to make a statement so that you may actually have something to use against them. When I took my last poly, I cooperated throughout the process and was truthful with the polygrapher. When he came back with a post test "discussion" (interrogation) He began accusing me of witholding information, being dishonest, etc. He asked me to write a statement explaining what I did not disclose and to be very detailed. I wrote 1 sentence. I have been cooperative and truthful during this test and have nothing to disclose.

The polygrapher then told me that he was going to fail me and offered to schedule a retest if I desired. That never happened.

Your approach may be different, but your holier than thou, I hold your future in law enforcement in my hands is very disturbing.

I also concur with George's statement. Many of us are college educated, hard working people who have had careers ruined by the pseudo-science of polygraphy.

Fred F.

PDD-Fed · May 31, 2002, 04:53 PM

Mr. Beechtrees,

You said...

"You do? You inform the test subject that the stim test is nothing more than a card game, a simple flim-flam designed to convince him that you can actually divine truth or falsehood?"

No, I tell him that I administer this part of the test to convince him that he responds when he lies on the exam. Then, when I show him that the largest response on the entire chart is to the number he chose (and yes, it really is most of the time), then he/she is usually convinced. Where is the "flim-flam? By the way, when his response is not clearly discernable (sp) from the rest (rare, but it does happen), I still show him the chart and explain that the number he chose was not particularlly significant to him....

By the way, I have NEVER used "cards". We don't use "cards" in the government....

Trickery? No trickery here...

"You actually tell your test subject that you expect him to lie with regard to his responses to the Control Questions, and that you will take those responses and compare them against the reponses recorded during the Relavent Questions?"

I don't use "comparision" questions. If you truly understood polygraph as well as you try to convice these readers you do, then you would know that comparison question testing is only ONE form of polygraph. I don't compare anything against anything. It's you against yourself in my test. I just hold the microphone while you sing....

"You tell your test subject that polygraphy is not science, and has no more accuracy than a coin-toss?"

I have read all the strings on this site betwen those who quote the "pro" polygraph research and those who quote the "anti" polygraph research. I am not a researcher. All I know is I run the test, you fail, and you then tell me about about the young girl you and your college buddies got drunk and raped. Then you DO NOT get the position of special trust and confidence you clearly do not deserve...What's the problem???

"You tell your test subject that both in the eyes of science and of the law, polygraph is not a science, cannot be considered a fact finding tool, and is virtually worthless for determing truth from falsehood?"

I'm not so sure I agree with you on that point. Please refer to my last paragraph...

Perhaps I misjudged you then.

I think you have...

PDD-Fed

P.S. Many of the folks on this site are fond of saying that polygraph examiners have no more than a high school education. Well, I can't talk for all the examiners in the entire world, but to be a polygraph examiner in the U.S. government, you must have a minimum of a B.A. degree. I happen to have a masters, as do MANY other federal examiners (Many of them in the academic field of Forensic Psychophysiology).

George W. Maschke · May 31, 2002, 05:44 PM

PDD-Fed,

You wrote in part:

QuoteI don't use "comparision" questions. If you truly understood polygraph as well as you try to convice these readers you do, then you would know that comparison question testing is only ONE form of polygraph. I don't compare anything against anything. It's you against yourself in my test. I just hold the microphone while you sing....

My understanding from your posts is that you exclusively use the Relevant/Irrelevant technique. Is that correct? (Which agency do you work for?)

Beech trees might be forgiven for assuming that you also use some variant of the "Control" Question "Test," as that is by far the most commonly used technique in the federal government.

QuoteI have read all the strings on this site betwen those who quote the "pro" polygraph research and those who quote the "anti" polygraph research. I am not a researcher. All I know is I run the test, you fail, and you then tell me about about the young girl you and your college buddies got drunk and raped. Then you DO NOT get the position of special trust and confidence you clearly do not deserve...What's the problem

I think that few of us here have any problem with individuals being disqualified from positions of trust based on admissions of wrongdoing made in the course of a polygraph interrogation. Rather, what is objectionable is that many truthful people are also being wrongly branded as liars based on the pseudoscience of polygraphy.

Batman (Guest) · May 31, 2002, 09:32 PM

PDD Fed,

Be careful, you're getting roped in by some pretty slick folks. You gotta know that no matter what you say these guys are, one, not going to buy into it; and two, going to try and break it right off in a particular protion of your anatomy that falls between the thighs and the tailbone.

You see, guys like Beech Nut and Deputy Daug will attack you with a vengance and then Mr. M enters in with a real nice guy, hey lets just talk polygraph approach, kind of like the "good cop/bad cop" routine. These guys are as good as any polygraph examiner I've ever run up against.

Just a word to the wise!

Batman

PDD-Fed · May 31, 2002, 10:10 PM

Thanks Batman,

I just like jerking these guy's chains. 8)I do understand that some of them may have very well been the victims of false positives (always possible).

And if that is true, I can certainly understand their feelings.

It is just a shame that these guys are so polarized in their position, they will never open their eyes and understand the thousands of criminal investigations a year that are solved in this country BECAUSE polygraph was brought in. They also do not realize that federal, state, and local agencies use polygraph to develop information on applicants that background investigations by their very design, miss. Like most examiners, I get confessions from applicants (major felonies) almost every day.

We both know that Background investigations are virtually useless for getting anything other than documented arrests and prosecutions.

Great! If polygraph went away tomorrow, then all we would discover in our applicant pools were the killers, rapists, child molesters, and thieves that GOT CAUGHT! (5% ?)....

Pretty scary thought, if you ask me...

PDD-Fed

beech trees · May 31, 2002, 10:47 PM

Quote from: PDD-Fed on May 31, 2002, 10:10 PMI just like jerking these guy's chains.

At last, your true motive becomes clear.

QuoteGreat! If polygraph went away tomorrow, then all we would discover in our applicant pools were the killers, rapists, child molesters, and thieves that GOT CAUGHT! (5% ?)

Pretty scary thought, if you ask me...

Will you be contacting the suitable officials and politicians in Philly about their recent policy change? Surely such an egregious error on their part (BANNING polygraph interrogations as part of the employee selection process) would warrant immediate and decisive action on your part, wouldn't it?

PDD-Fed · Jun 01, 2002, 02:06 AM

To: Beechtrees,

You said, "Will you be contacting the suitable officials and politicians in Philly about their recent policy change? Surely such an egregious error on their part (BANNING polygraph interrogations as part of the employee selection process) would warrant immediate and decisive action on your part, wouldn't it?"

Yep! It sure would. ;I for one would love to see Philly reverse its decision, but alas, they will have to live with dark future their choice is sure to bring...and by the way, THANK GOD that LAPD finally saw the folly of their ways and instituted polygraph testing...

To GM,

Thank you for your objectivity regarding my posts and your warm welcome to your site. I can not at this time reveal who I work for, but I do enjoy the once or twice a day I get to interact with the people on these message boards (I really mean that. I am not being patronizing here...

George W. Maschke · Jun 01, 2002, 06:12 AM

PDD-Fed and Batman,

You might find it convenient to become registered users of this message board. This will give you the option to edit your messages after posting them, to send private messages to other registered users, and to optionally receive e-mail notification when new messages are posted to a thread in which you've posted.