After failing the polygraph before, I learned how to beat it.

[stefano]

I have not had an opportunity to evaluate and compare responses using mental countermeasures vs normal reactions generated from a deceptive response.Over the next few days I will conduct a non-scientific experiment and attempt to test your supposition.

I cannot answer your question at this time. 

Good luck. The DoDPI and Axciton have been trying for decades. Let me know what you find out.

[Guest]

I am sure my results will be the same as Bruce and NACA. 

[Guest]

Stefano,

One question for you regarding Chuckles countermeasures;  do you believe they would be observed and identified by a competent examiner?

[stefano]

One question for you regarding Chuckles countermeasures;do you believe they would be observed and identified by a competent examiner? 

Cannot say as I wasn't there. Let's let him respond to that.

[stefano]

Thank you.An individual that has scientific knowledge of polygraph may be able to defeat polygraph, there are no scientific studies that support or defeat your supposition. 

I stand corrected. I should have said psuedo-scientific.

[Guest]

Thank you.An individual that has scientific knowledge of polygraph may be able to defeat polygraph, there are no scientific studies that support or defeat your supposition. 

I stand corrected. I should have said psuedo-scientific.

Yes, you stand corrected. 

[stefano]

Yes, you stand corrected.

Good, that at least we both agree that polygraphy is a pseudo-science.

[Guest]

We do not agree on polygraph being pseudo-science, I was commenting on my proposed project of studying the difference in reaction caused by mental countermeasures and deceptive responses.  Sorry for the confusion.  I noted you quoted scientific studies and knowledge.

I will be more precise in the future.   

[Bill_Brown]

stefano,

I have registered rather than using "Guest".  I am working with several students on mental countermeasures and education on polygraph.   

I am having them view the tracings they are producing and coaching them on how to alter the tracings physically, then asking them to follow the instructions in the Lie Behind the Lie Detector.  This is going to take some time. 

Do you have any further suggestions?

[stefano]

I am having them view the tracings they are producing and coaching them on how to alter the tracings physically, then asking them to follow the instructions in the Lie Behind the Lie Detector.This is going to take some time.

Do you have any further suggestions? 

If I understood correctly, you were going to see if you could determine which attributes of a countermeasure induced reaction make it distinguishable from a normal reaction. If you think this through, it's impossible. The sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems are permanently enervated and thus generate the same reactions regardless of the origin of the applied stimulus.

When Chuckles asked you to take the countermeasure challenge, you rebuffed him say that you don't need to prove anything and are confident in your abilities. Nobody here is doubting your proficiency in the polygraph technique. It is the technique itself that is under scrutiny. If you and your students believe you can detect countermeasures, then stepping up to the countermeasure challenge would put the matter to rest once and for all.

[Chuckles]

I did not pass my poly because my examiner was inexperienced or not good at his job. He is very well known in my state as one of the top polygraph examiners around. He has over 20 years of experience in the industry and his main job these days is running a school where people learn to give polygraph examinations.

My original polygraph examiner was an arrogant insulting crass foul mouthed bum. I wouldn't be surprised if it was "quickfix" in the flesh! After I complained that he was such an unprofessional jerk my therapist decided to bring in someone with impeccable qualifications.

Of course the polygraph is totally unreliable no matter who is administering the test. I just wanted to answer your question about the level of polygraph examiner who tested me.

[Bill_Brown]

I understand your hypothesis, and my students are not polygraph students, they are collage students.  They are reading TLBTLD at this time.

They have read the statements regarding polygraph being totally inaccurate and I will not instruct them regarding accuracy.

Before either of us make a declarative statement regarding the difference, if any, in the responses we will see, allow me to complete this Pseudo Scientific experiment. 

It will not establish anything concert and will allow me to answer the question regarding any possible difference I observe. 

[Bill_Brown]

"permanently enervated"  I am not sure what that actually means, would you elaborate please.

[stefano]

"permanently enervated"I am not sure what that actually means, would you elaborate please. 

Sorry, I meant to say "innervated"-I never was a good speller.

[Bill_Brown]

Thank you that clarified for me.  And again all I'm looking for with the experiment are noticeable differences in reactions.  There may be none, and you will be correct if this is the case. 

Should there be differences the subject deserves further studies by persons that are not biased or attempting to prove anything.  It would also require testing in the blind by the examiner and not be aware of what is being studied.