Inconclusive results

[Mark johnson]

TM, thanks for your help, and thanks for your link George. I am telling you what happened, theres a whole background story I will not disclose here, but it was basically did i knowingly take advantage of someone. I absolutley did not. Yes I'm at least 18, my parents know what is going on, and I think when I told the school admins the course of action this MSW wanted to take, they were a little taken a back. I dont think this is the route they wanted to take.  

While knowing she had taken at least 1 drink, I was in violation of the student code of conduct. I did not appear to be totally trashed. It was either take these courses and hope they see I have tried hard to get my good name back, or take it to a school tribunal where the punishment could have been harsher. Thus, I chose to sign a paper of recognition that I had violated the schools policy and take these steps.

I would like to keep attorneys out of this because if it leaves the school grounds, it could result in a criminal complaint. I dont want to go to jail is basically what I am saying. If I am not invited back to the school I will ask them for the underlying reasons and if the polygraph is one of them I may try to take some action.

[T.M. Cullen]

Reminds me of the movie with Al Pacino "Scent of a Woman".
OO-RAH!  OO-RAH!

Good luck!

TC

[Mark johnson]

Right, so I took the test yesteday and failed. Told the truth through and through. Dont know what to make of this. I was being attacked with ideas that my school was going to start criminal proceedings if I didn't tell the truth (which I was) and I am strongly leaning to civil action against the school if they decide to throw me out. I talked to the councilor and he said he was surprised, and that his report to the school would use the polygraphs but not put all weight on it. He this expulsion would be very extreme. So I have to wait until the tester gets his report to the councilor, and he gets his to the school. I think the school has to decide whether I am a threat or not. And if I am deemed so based on a polygraph, I would like to take action against the school for kicking me out using unsubstantiated evidence. Thoughts?

[T.M. Cullen]

 

I was being attacked with ideas that my school was going to start criminal proceedings if I didn't tell the truth (which I was)

How did you respond?  Did you tell him what you thought about their little contraption?

Sounds like he was determined to fail you no matter what.   You are under no obligation to sit there and take any abuse.  I would answer any given line of questioning once and only once.  As for telling you the school was  going to start criminal proceedings, you could have used that as an excuse to stop cooperating with him by saying anything further since criminal proceedings were pending.  Just ask if he needed to run anymore charts, otherwise just tell him you have nothing else to say.  If the school asked, tell them he said you were going to initiate criminal proceedings, and didn't think it prudent to say anything more.

He was gonna fail you anyway.  Might as well have called him on everything he said or claimed.  Twist his words around for a change.

Good luck with whatever civil action you take.  Maybe you find a good laywer  from this website.

TC

[Mark johnson]

I told him that I didn't care what his machine said because i was telling the truth. He said it wasnt his machine, it was my heart that was beating faster all 3 times during the same question. I said I wasn't going to tell him something that wasn't true and that the school shoudn't take legal action without stricly using methods that are unproven and cannot hold up in court. He said I'll be glad to tell that to the judge when i testify because I have testified about people passing polygraphs and they get acquited.

Needless to say, I know none of you people know me, and know if I am really telling the truth, but I appreciate the help as if I am innocent, which I truly am. But I am absolutley floored that my higher education could be railroaded by a polygraph that has no basis for legal or scientific standing. I also want to ask what impact having anxiety has on these tests, which I suffer from. The first test I was way more anxious but was deemed inconclusive. This one, my heart was pounding, but he said it was pounding more often during a particular question. Regardless of whether polygraphs are reliable, would anxiety throw them off?

[T.M. Cullen]

The first test I was way more anxious but was deemed inconclusive. This one, my heart was pounding, but he said it was pounding more often during a particular question. Regardless of whether polygraphs are reliable, would anxiety throw them off?

Read the quote at the bottom of my posts by Dr. Phil Zimbardo who was Chairman of the Psychology Dept. at Standford University.

Increased "Fight, flight, freeze" reactions as measure by the polygraph do NOT equate unequivocally to 'deception'.   So you could have told him that.  If he is focusing on one question and falsely accusing you of lying, then your mind could easily label that question as a "bogey" question and your subconscious will produce a defensive or "fight" response.  Has nothing directly to do with lying or holding back information.   Just that your brain is being "defensive" about that question, because it is THAT question he is calling you a liar on, when you are being truthful.  Don't you think that is enough to make a truthfull person react?

You actually have three brains.  The "cortex" (seat of concsious thought), which influences  the "lymbic system" (seat of emotions) which sends signals to the "brain stem", which unconsciously controls your heart rate, sweat glands, adrenal gland...etc.

Anyway, sounds like you got the hang of it.  Sometimes it's best to just call a polygrapher "out" .  After all, he was lying to you.  Don't just take what he say's as gospel.   Make him back up his claims and hopefully catch him in a lie!  They you have grounds for just saying, "hey, you're bull shitting me here.  I am trying to be honest, but I'm starting to see this for the sham it is!".

Of course that will piss off most polygraph operators, but like I said, looked like he was going to fail you anyway.

[pailryder]

Mark johnson

Did you unknowingly take advantage of another student?

[Mark johnson]

I did not knowingly do it, no. I had seen her take drinks in front of me by serveral things that happened over the course of that night that led me to believe that she was very coherent and knew what was going on. I contacted her the next day and she said she did not know what happened. That is what i have been saying from day one. I signed a paper that said I violated the sexual assault policy at school because I wanted to get things behind me, and if I didnt, I didnt know if worse consequences would come. I was a little hamstrung but I wanted to avoid going to a 'trial' type phase through the schools judiciary board, where worse stipulations could have been imposed.

[pailryder]

Mark johnson

So you failed a polygraph about a sexual assault that you had already admitted to?

[Mark johnson]

The one question I failed was whether or not I had knowingly touched a woman inappropiately when they were incappacitated or passed out. That I have never done! I did have sex with this woman, she was apparently too drunk to remember anything...I now have no way to prove my innocence about that because these people are dead set on polygraphs. The therapist did say tho that he thinks I need a limited amount of counceling compared to the felons he works with, which is what the school wanted in the first place. But he doesnt think I should be interrupted from school. Now, the school admins have to choose which course of action to take.

[pailryder]

Mark johnson

Just once more to be sure I understand.  You took a polygraph to prove you didnt really commit a sexual assault, ever though you had already signed a "paper" (sometimes called a confession) in which you admitted you did.  So you want the poly to prove you lied when you confessed?  Dude, really?

[Twoblock]

Mark Johnson

I don't think anyone has told you that you can't legally be judged guilty or innocent solely by a ploygraph. If your education is interupted by the polygrapher and his machine and the school,  then my strong suggestion is that you sue both.

[Mark johnson]

I will defiantly heed your advice and take action if something is done against me based on these polygraphs.

pailryder, I understand your confusion so I REWRITE what I have already said earlier. I signed an admittence to violation of the sexual assault policy. It offered me a way to stay in school without going to a board which could have expelled me (deffered suspension). As per the admittence, I would stay in school as long as I completed some educational processes, i.e. couciling with a sex ed. teacher, meeting with a group in the city. The group that I was reffered to did not have the resources to deal with my case and reffered me to another man, who wanted to give me a polygraph to confirm his suspicions that this incident was not malicious or preconcieved and that I did not need follow up counciling. If I did not take it, I would need counciling which would last longer and cost more. This was the quickest way to deal with the issue, although it has come back to blow up in my face.

[Mark johnson]

One more thing twoblock...the counselor and polygrapher have told me I can be judged accordingly. They said it usually doesnt happen because the defense and the DA have to agree to do it on both sides. However, the defense usually doesnt agree to it and thus it is not allowable because both dont agree to it. I told him that makes me feel wary of the justice system because polygraphs arent 100%. It doesnt make sense. That sounds like BS to me. If the defense doesnt want a bloody knife in evidence can they not agree to it??? If courts truly recognized polygraphs there would be no need for lawyers to argue innocence of guilt. Are they blatantly lying to me??? The counselor said.."I am not making this up."

If this is true, and i brought up a civil suit, could the polygraph then be entered into evidence of a criminal suit against me because that evidence has already been enetered into a court of law??

[Twoblock]

Mark Johnson

You will have study the laws in your state for the correct answer.  They are correct that the polygraph results would have to be agreed to bt both sides in order for it to be intered as evidence. Even then some judges will not allow it because they know the polygraph does not detect lies. Defense lawyers are stupid to want to agree to do this and should be replaced.  I am not a lawyer, but my advice is to hold your ground and let them know that there will be legal action if your education is interrupted by this malarky. They are illinformed if they think they can make it stick. Have them research this website.