Opinions Please...

[DRUGSAREBAD]

Hi all! I am new to the board and am definitely in favor of the site title...I am in the running for a local police department that unfortunately gives polygraphs. I was wondering if I could get some opinions on my current polygraph situation?

First off, I have nothing to hide nor lie about and have been striving towards a career in law enforcement for quite sometime. I had my poly this morning and the typical happened. Filled out a Poly info booklet, went over every detail with the poly examiner, and then the test! It was 17 questions asked in three sets...all sets contained the same 17 questions. The first two times everything was a charm. In between set 1 and 2 I took a little poly consisting of a number written on a board and I was instructed to answer no to every question.

Here is the kicker. The first two sets of 17 questions apparently were fine. I deliberately lied (with the examiner's instruction) about seeing the number on the board. This "lie" registered no response as to say I told the truth?? On the third set, two questions I had previously answered without any response had a response triggered which drew the examiners attentions although I wasn't lying in the least of senses. He told me that it could be a problem but it was up to HR and his overall evaluation. What is going to happen? Will I be DQed for this? I answered the first 2 sets with no problems and on the third set all of a sudden the computer decides to tab me a lier?? I am completely dumbfounded. Although the examiner did say since I was truthful in admitting mistakes when we went over the booklet we were "in a different place." Whatever this is supposed to mean. Is it all a mind game to get me worked up because the chart he showed me I couldn't tell the red lines form the blue lines in terms of what significance they had with me telling the truth.

I am open to any and ALL opinions.

Thanks

[Canadian Crusader]

I find it odd that the polygrapher would do the stim test in between the first and second sets?  I thought the stim test was a bunch of smoke and mirrors to fool you into thinking the poly actually worked and was best served if performed before the poly was hooked up.

My personal guess (keep in mind that I feel the poly is a hoax) would be that the poly registered some sort of physical event in your body such as muscle movement during those questions, gas, involentary muscle spasm, etc.

The problem arises when the police force and polygrapher believe that a spike in heartrate, BP, and/or dermal activity is actually an indicator of deception.  Hope that they don't and hope that you never gave any disqualifying addmissions.  If the later two points are correct I would venture to guess you passed.

[DRUGSAREBAD]

Yes the stim test (the numbers gig) was done after the first set. I deliberately lied during that test because he told me to. From the graph the examiner printed (the stim graph I believe) there was no indication of me "lying" about the number although I did???

Anyways, it was my first polygraph and I was completely honest. Every admission I made on my application was the same admission I made with my poly so if there was something they didn't like in my application I wouldn't have made it this far (at least I hope). I have nothing to hide nor will my pride be hurt over this game. I just don't understand why I would "tell the truth" the first two times and then all of a sudden be "lying" the third??? Although the polygrapher was clicking  the mouse after he removed all the the junk off me and then after a few seconds of clicking he told me to come around and he showed me my "results" He said I had "some trouble" with two questions regarding past employers and I said I had nothing more to say because I have told the complete truth and he said "okay I'll make my evaluation and forward the package to HR and they will be in contact..." in a very condensending tone, but then again I guess it is all part of the game.

Thanks for you insights

[random]

Drugsarebad,

Reading your post, I am almost certain you passed. I had a similar experience.

The "okay I'll make my evaluation and forward the package to HR and they will be in contact..." at the end of th exam is a standard line. In my case, he told me "my report will indicate that you had trouble with the test. But don't worry, the adjudicator will look at the 'Whole Person' before making a determination."

Several months later, I got a call. I passed.

[Public Servant]

If you were not questioned in depth, for any period of time about the question(s) you "had trouble" with, I'd venture to guess you were NDI.

Your pseudonym indicates a concern about the drug issue.  If a drug question was "a problem" I'd be concerned.  But from what I'm hearing, I think you'll get a call back to move on to the next phase.

I have a few questions for the sake of the discussion on this site:  
Did you read TLBTLD before you took the exam?  
Did you attempt any CMs?  
Or did you just go in and take the test as it was intended and did your best to be honest?

Good luck.

[DRUGSAREBAD]

Random,

Thanks for your support and insight. I have been beating myself up over this. I am going to call HR tomorrow and just inquire as to when I should expect to hear word. If I failed I plan to take the appeal road. I could understand the apprehension if it were drug related but this "trouble" was about not being honest about all/some past employers, which at no time did I fabricate or lie about anything especially my past employers non of which I have ever been fired from. These "troubles could be easily found out and verified if I make it to the BI phase.

Thanks again

[DRUGSAREBAD]

Public Servant,

Thanks to you for your support and insight as well. Forgive my ignorance but NDI is a good thing right?

Drugs were no concern of mine nor the examiner at any point during the interrogation/interview (choose your poison ) so it seemed. Drugs never had or have any place in my life and I pride myself on this fact. But, I could see where the concern would be but not about past employers...

As for you discussion questions:

I didn't read TLBTLD I just glanced the web site. My dislike and disgust (for lack of a better term :-/ )towards the poly came from logical reasoning and college.
I had never taken a poly before today so I just wanted to be honest because I have nothing to hide, however I did attempt to control my breathing to a steady rythme, mainly due to my nerves-not hiding. I am not sure if it work. I was strapped to the new age computer poly with the sensors everywhere so I was a little intimidated and apprehensive towards the physical CM's such as muscluar tension and those sorts of things. Other than my breathing I would assume my behavior was typical of a first timer. My nerves were a little racked due to the environment but again I had nothing to hide so that was calming. The examiner attempted to put that "I am your friend and want to help you" front up but I was careful to detail all my explanations/addmissions exactly as I wrote them on my application and on the pre-poly booklet so to try and miniumize examiner fabrication as much as possible.

Why were the same question asked three different times? More importantly if I showed no reaction the first two times why make a deal out of the third? Mind game???

Sorry for the long post and again I appreciate all the help. I guess it becomes the waiting game once again.

[DRUGSAREBAD]

NOTE TO SELF: yes spell check is a good thing

[Public Servant]

DAB,

Sorry for the abbreviation.  Yes, NDI (No Deception Indicated) is good.  

From what you're saying, I gather you practiced no specific CMs other than trying to remain calm and control your breathing.  I assume this was just an attempt to remain calm and to keep your physiology from accelerating as a result of nervousness.  If so, this is quite common and it sounds like you took the test as designed.

However, you mentioned physical CMs.  What type have you heard of prior to coming to this site, and what made you decide not to attempt any?

One last question:  Did the question with which you were told you had problems, seem broad and hard to narrow to an absolute "no" answer; or was there an admission you gave mentioned within the question?

Running three charts and asking questions again, is part of the examination process.  It's a way of determining consitency.  One response might have been a fluke; consitent response indicates the question truly concerns you (ie not completely truthful).  

The examiner should not have told you if you were passing between charts.  No determination can be made until sufficient charts/askings have been conducted.  Perhaps when he said you were doing well, he meant you were doing a good job of concentrating, listening, and remaining still.  

Again, if there was no post test interview, to speak of, I don't think you have much to worry about.

Take care and please keep us posted on what you hear about your results.

[DRUGSAREBAD]

Public,

I practiced no specific CMs at all. I have heard from TV and other police contacts that you have to pay attention to the questions and do things like tighten your butt muscles during relevant questions, stuff that will spike a reaction to the obviously truthful questions...at least I am going on a whim here I am not even sure if I am correct but believe me if I didn't pass I will be reading TLBTLD and going into my second one fully loaded.

As for the questions I had "trouble" with one question apparently was about disclosing all past employers. The examiner said I had trouble and seemed to be hinding something about my past employers. I told him I was certain I was completely honest with my employers besides I have never been fired from any job and have always received good reccommendations so I would have no reason to lie or fabricate anything along those lines. The other question was theft from previous employers. This one was very hard to find the ultimate no answer to because who hasn't taken a pen home from work or take computer paper because their printer ran out at home....obvisouly him! I mad admissions during our interview about the stupid things I did when I was younger and they were all minor. I stole two CDs from an ex-employer, and office supplies like pens and paper and binders for college with my current employer nothing to big. Nothing totaling over $50.00. He said I seemed to have trouble with that and I told him maybe it is becuase I know they were stupid mistakes and it bothers me because I never did anything to correct it I just took the stuff but onlys those times and I was actually 100% truthful with him. The post-test interview was all of about two minutes. He asked me if anything was bothering me about those questions and I said the above. He told me that had I put nothing for the questions about stealing from past employers he would make sure of it and I said I was completely honest with everything I listed. He told me that because I was honest in the pre-test interview we are "in a different place and he will have to make his evaluation" That was it, shook my hand gave a smile and opened the door...so long!

I guess I will find out for sure the end result very soon!
Thanks Pulic and I hope I answered you questions? I will be sure to keep the board up to date as soon as I hear something.

[George W. Maschke]

Public Servant,

You wrote in part:

Running three charts and asking questions again, is part of the examination process.  It's a way of determining consitency.  One response might have been a fluke; consitent response indicates the question truly concerns you (ie not completely truthful).

That a person consistently shows a physiological response to a question is no clear indication that the person has not been completely truthful. As Professor John Furedy has observed, the polygraph is "virtually useless for differentiating the anxious-but-innocent person from the anxious-and-guilty one."

David Renzelman, the disgraced former head of the DOE polygraph program, gave a candid explanation of this at the first public meeting held by the National Academy of Sciences' Committee to Review the Scientific Evidence on the Polygraph. He said:

Polygraph is only a means of...of...of looking at emotion that is taking place at the time a person listens to, thinks about, answers a question that the examiner and the person taking the test has agreed upon originally. And if the answer to that question bothers the person taking the test, then it tends to bother us. And then it's our job to find out, 'Why did that bother you?'

The polygraph cannot tell why a question "bothers" a person, and there is no scientific basis for assuming that because a person physiologically responds when answering a question, he/she has not been completely truthful. Conversely, lack of a consistent physiological response to a question is no clear indication that the subject has been completely truthful.

[Saidme]

George

Although I'm not a big Renzleman fan I do take offense to your characterization of him.  You seem to try and take the high road on most of your posts but every now and then your true feeling bleed through.  You wrote: "David Renzelman, the disgraced former head of the DOE polygraph program, gave a candid explanation of this at the first public meeting held by the National Academy of Sciences' Committee to Review the Scientific Evidence on the Polygraph."

How was he "disgraced"?  Because he was asked to retire/resign?  Or is that just your interpretation of the turn of events?  

Again, I'm not here to defend the guy, but you try to pull off that I'm too good to get in the mud with the rest of you routine and then try to weasel that statement in.  What a loser.

[George W. Maschke]

David Renzelman was disgraced by being forced to resign as head of the DOE polygraph program. (Had he not resigned, he would have surely been fired.) I can add to his credit, however, that in his farewell note to his colleagues, he offered no excuses for his conduct and accepted responsibility for the inappropriate remarks he made.

Also to David Renzelman's credit, he provided a candid explanation of what polygraph screening consists of. (See my citation above.) Do you disagree with his characterization?

[Saidme]

George

I don't want to get into the nuts and bolts of screening programs.  As I've stated before, I'm not a big fan of polygraph screening programs.  People are forced to resign from government and private positions on a daily basis.  I doubt we could characterize each person as disgraceful or being disgraced.  My point is you used the term disgraced to characterize a polygraph examiner and program because it happens to suit your little view of the world.  By labeling the examiner and the program (which you did by implication) it helps you place an unfair label on the practitioners.  So I guess you've come to the conclusion that if you can't get rid of polygraph, maybe you can help get rid of polygraph examiners!  Hmmmm.

[George W. Maschke]

Saidme,

I would agree that not all persons who are forced to resign from government positions have necessarily done anything blameworthy. Indeed, in some cases, the opposite is true. But I think "disgraced" is a fair characterization of Mr. Renzelman, considering the reasons for which he was forced out as head of the DOE polygraph program, which you will find reviewed in the message thread, DOE Polygraph Chief David M. Renzelman Sacked. Do you disagree?