Did Polygraph Misdirect the Elizabeth Smart Case?

[Batman]

We're pushing day three of "The Return"; I've spoken with 12 other jaded law enforcement officers and so far all have the same opinion, there's something rotten in Utah and it ain't polygraph.

What's it mean when dad says, "I'm so thankful that Elizabeth has returned to us."?

Any guesses?

Batman

[Anonymous]

Batman,

The case that you are laying out for us MIGHT well indicate that there is some rotten in Utah IN ADDITION to polygraphy.

[Batman]

Very possible, very possible.

Let's all play detective.  Seeing that there appears to be a sentiment that polygraph misdirected this investigatgion, lets take it from the top and see how this might have been investigated.

Ok, we've just been notified by the Smart family that their 14/15 year old daughter has been abducted from her bedroom in the middle of the night.  What's step number one?

Humor me, play along and lets see where we end up.  What the heck, it's better than calling each other names, for now.

Batman

[orolan]

I'll play along and take a stab at this.
Step one would be the interviews. Talk to everyone that was in the house at the time. Talk to the neighbors to find out if any strange people or vehicles were seen. The interviews would then branch out to other people, based on information gathered in the other interviews.
While the interviews were being conducted, the public information process would also occur. The "Have you seen this girl?" posters and TV ads.

[Boston Blackie]

 :-/ IS GEORGE MASCHE BEING PAID TO LEAD THE FIGHT TO PROHIBIT THE POLYGRAPH? (MAYBE BY THE BRAIN WAVE GUY)

I Also believe "THAT IT'S IMPORTANT NOT TO JUMP TO CONCLUSIONS" that is why this is a question rather than a statement!  However if some malcontent or rumor monger wants to jump on the bandwgon or soapbox and spread a story about George accepting money from D.R. for his "free" services, that is not my fault or my intent I am merely posing a question.

By the way, I do not recall reading or hearing anything that Ricci "turned out to be innocent".  I thought that the entire matter was still under investigation.  Could George be jumping the gun?  Just another question!

[Batman]

Orolan,

Thanks for replying.

Remember we have a potential crime scene.  Before we conduct any indepth interviews shouldn't we get out to the house to have a look around?  We may want to get out there quick to insure potential evidence isn't destroyed or tampered with.  What do you think?

Batman

[TheNoLieGuy]

     George,

   As a collective body, I find most of the listings on your site to be critical of your view on polygraph generally, and your obsession with it specificaly.  In the Smart case You / We are working with what little information has been released thus far, and not the complete information in what took place and the findings of all of the tests done.  Further, Although the public has a right to know such things, it is only after a case has gone to trial or a claim that it has been solved that such information is released.  

   At some point you really have to take a step back, look at yourself and ask why, as an academic, you have become so obsessed with this polygraph thing.  One has to wonder in your specific case where you claimed they told you that you failed such a test; whether you would have met the security clearance criteria under the Psyche exam given your level of obsessive behavior.  Could your foreign travels also have played a part in your being assessed as not the most desireable candidate ?  There are only so many openings in such agencies which you applied for, so why should we assume that you were otherwise the best qualified despite your polygraph result ?  Did you get a private sector retest prior to your commitment to countermeasures ? It is a shame to see such an academic mind concentrate on the negative, rather than use your mind to improve such a system or replace it with something better.  You have only criticisms and no solutions; the lowest form of academic participation.

  I was also wondering, why would such a prestigious organization as the Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory put their efforts and software scoring program in this field if they could not validate it and/or make it reliable ?

  Doesn't the forward movement of technology, as added to the polygraph hardware and software, make your arguments weaker with each passing addition.  Surely there are too many confirmed D.I. and N.D.I. charts, vs. False Positives or False Negatives, not to give this profession merit to the realm of statistical significance.  Doesn't guilty knowledge / peak of tension type testing on elements of the crime, unknown to all but the perpetrator and police, act as a clear indicated to the point of lottery odds in it being any other person in such a case ?  

  In short, give credit where credit is due, weed out any unprofessional types as with any other profession, and let's get on with solving cases with this and other valuable investigative tools !!!!!!!!

TheNoLieGuy

[orolan]

Batman,

How stupid of me. Of course securing the crime scene would be of paramount importance, in order to gather what physical evidence may be avilable and untainted. THEN the interviews would begin.

[Anonymous]

TheNoLieGuy,

Because you mentioned the polygraph-related efforts of the APL of JHU, perhaps you might be interested in the following linked article authored by three very senior scientists and members of the Society for Psychophysiological Research (SPR).  The article can be found at http://www.stoeltingco.com/polygraph/peerreviewb.htm.

Contained within the summary are the following two statements:

...Based on scientific peer-review criteria, the evaluation team viewed the JHU/APL effort inadequate in the application of scientific technology. The committee was perplexed by the theoretical and descriptive approach conducted by the research team, as well as their lack of understanding of physiology, psychophysiology, signal processing strategies, physiological monitoring hardware, and statistical theory....

[orolan]

TheNoLieGuy,

Were it not for the obsessions of academics, we would all still believe the world was flat, the sun revolved around the earth, the moon was made of green cheese, ad infinitum. And GKT testing is not in widespread use at this time. Nor does it have sufficient historical scientific data to develop an opinion as to its effectiveness or lack thereof. At this point it remains an unproven technology.

[Anonymous]

TheNoLieGuy,

The following is being re-posted in order to correct the number of scientists contributing to the report.  The correct number of committee members is five, not three, as stated in my previous post.  The corrected post:

TheNoLieGuy,

Because you mentioned the polygraph-related efforts of the APL of JHU, perhaps you might be interested in the following linked article authored by five very senior scientists (including two past Presidents of the Society for Psychophysiological Research (SPR)).  The article can be found at http://www.stoeltingco.com/polygraph/peerreviewb.htm.

Contained within the summary are the following two statements:

...Based on scientific peer-review criteria, the evaluation team viewed the JHU/APL effort inadequate in the application of scientific technology. The committee was perplexed by the theoretical and descriptive approach conducted by the research team, as well as their lack of understanding of physiology, psychophysiology, signal processing strategies, physiological monitoring hardware, and statistical theory....

[Batman]

Orolan,

OK, we've secured the scene.  Maybe we've been able to obtain some initial "evidence" but we're not exactly sure what we have.  We probably seize more than we need, just to be safe, even though we know it will most likely lead to criticism by the family or those close to the family.  

Now we do our initial interviews.  Who do we talk to first?  What are we asking?  What are we trying to find out?  What's the overall game plan/goal for our interviews?

Gotta go but will read and reply to yours ASAP.  

Batman

[Twoblock]

TheNoLieGuy

If you want to debate the validity/NOvilidity of the polygraph or attack someone, start a new thread. Batman has started us on an investigation of the Smart case and posts between his scenarios distracts from following.

Batman

I am interested in your investigation theory of this case because I think there was a number of mistakes made in the original investigation as was in the Ramsey case. However, little has been published of the  beginning details and I doubt that they will make those public. You know, as a LEO, investigator  "down and dirty" details are seldom made public. Even at trials, investigator mistakes are hard to gather.

[orolan]

Batman,

OK. Apparently somebody has told us that Elizabeth was taken by a person or persons unknown, otherwise we wouldn't know it was an abduction. That would be the little sister. At this point, she is our only witness and our primary source of information. Somebody starts on her, preferably a child psychologist and not a police detective with a cigar and a beer gut.
Somebody talks to the parents, asking the basics. Did you hear anything odd, what time did you go to bed, did you get up at all during the night, did you look in on the girls, what time did you wake up. The primary answer we're looking for is a timeframe for when the abduction could have occurred. Our questioning of the parents ends here, UNLESS we have seen or perceived a nervousness or evasiveness in one of the parents in answering our questions. Assuming for now that the parents appeared sincere and truthful, we would move on to the neighbors.
We now question the neighbors, in the typical "widening circle" fashion common in neighborhood canvassing. Questioning would be similar to the parents. Did you see any strange vehicles, any people you didn't know, anybody else from the neighborhood out walking or driving, when did you go to bed, when did you get up. Again, we are looking for information on timeframe, but now we are also looking for possible anomalies. For example, if neighbor A saw neighbor B out walking at midnight but neighbor B fails to mention his or her midnight stroll. Additionally, we have continued to keep our eyes and ears sharp on the lookout for nervousness or evasiveness.
By now, the psychologist has probably given up on the sister. She is having a hard time focusing, because she is emotionally traumatized by the entire event. She can't recall a thing, and the psychologist is probably advocating hypnosis.

[Batman]

Orolan & 2Block:

OK, we tell our best interviewer to tuck in his shirt, suck in his gut, and put out the stogie.

Not bad, we need to determine when was Elizabeth last seen.  Initial interviews of the parents go easy, however we have to ensure they are thorough.  Remember, as in the Ramsey case, and what appears to be a growing trend, we may not have the full cooperation of the parents and extended family for very long.  We need to get the most while we can.  This family appears to be fairly cooperative though.

One of the key elements of our interviews has to be what type of girl is Elizabeth?  We can not forget that she is a 14 year old and may have simply run off on her own. So the dynamics of the family is almost equally as improtant as other elements.  We need to look at the extended family.  

Side note: We also have a few murders, rapes, child abuse investigations, and general mayham still going on so a major consideration has to be allocation of manpower.  Just how many folks do we put on this invstigation, at the expense of other ongoing investigations?

Given what we know about child abductions, if this girl was abducted and we don't locate her within the first 24-72 hours she may be killed, we push hard early.  We need to really narrow the focus and we need to do it quickly.  We have limited resources.  The sister has indicated that someone has entered the room late at night and Elizabeth was taken out of the room by this person.  We can't discount the fact this sister is only 10 years old so the accuracy of her information is suspect.  Also, she did not tell her parents that her sister was taken out of the room for at least two hours after the fact so we are wondering if maybe Elizabeth enlisted the aid of her sister to cover her running away.  Still a possibility, after all she is a 14 year old, the prime age for taking off.  All of this really widens the possibilities.  The press is on to this now, and the pressure ratchets up.  Just got a call of a pretty serious domestic abuse, shit, one or two more guys gone.  What's next?

Batman