I believe I'm going to fail my poly test.

[BrickmansJW]

I obviously have broken little rules such as being on the internet when I'm not allowed to and have a phone my PO doesn't know about and quite honestly, I've read the book and still feel like I'm gonna fail. My question is if I fail a poly graph test can they send me back to jail? and do I answer control questions honestly such as have you ever stole anything? and relevant questions like have you been on the internet lately dishonestly? Just need some advice most likely won't help but thanks anyways.

[Ex Member]

Brickman,

Here is my advice to you. Don't mess with judges, they are not very sympathetic to those who skirt the injunctions imposed upon them. The judge is the sole person who can make a decision to revoke your probation and send you to jail. I'm reading into your post that you are in treatment as well due to the "no phone or internet." So, the input of your PO & treatment providers will carry a lot of weight.

Don't break the terms of your probation, period. If you feel a need to be deceptive on a polygraph exam, you need to discuss this candidly with your attorney. Studying what is contained in TLBTLD may help alleviate the possibility of a False Positive, but if accessing the info is a violation of your terms, I would have to advise against it.

If you are indeed in treatment, work your program and learn to make better choices.

[Aunty Agony]

I obviously have broken little rules such as being on the internet when I'm not allowed to and have a phone my PO doesn't know about...

You seem to be asking us to abet you in breaking the terms of your probation and helping you to lie to your PO or to a judge.  Under these circumstances we cannot help you.

A great counter-polygraph activist and trainer, Doug Williams, was recently persecuted by a rogue bureau of the U.S. government for being popular and effective.  Unfortunately he unwisely did exactly what you are asking us to do.  This gave his powerful enemies the leverage to impose a conviction and send him to jail.

Every corrupt politician knows that if someone is engaged in activity X and it's legal but you don't like it, you accuse and convict him of illegal activity Y -- but you tell the press that the indictment was for X.  In Doug's case X is polygraph countermeasure training and Y is conspiring and abetting lying to due authorities.

Nobody here wants to be the next Doug Williams.

-Aunty Agony.

[Drew Richardson]

Quote:
I obviously have broken little rules such as being on the internet when I'm not allowed to and have a phone my PO doesn't know about...

Quote:
I obviously have broken little rules such as being on the internet when I'm not allowed to and have a phone my PO doesn't know about...

You seem to be asking us to abet you in breaking the terms of your probation and helping you to lie to your PO or to a judge.  Under these circumstances we cannot help you.

A great counter-polygraph activist and trainer, Doug Williams, was recently persecuted by a rogue bureau of the U.S. government for being popular and effective.  Unfortunately he unwisely did exactly what you are asking us to do.  This gave his powerful enemies the leverage to impose a conviction and send him to jail.

Every corrupt politician knows that if someone is engaged in activity X and it's legal but you don't like it, you accuse and convict him of illegal activity Y -- but you tell the press that the indictment was for X.  In Doug's case X is polygraph countermeasure training and Y is conspiring and abetting lying to due authorities.

Nobody here wants to be the next Doug Williams.

-Aunty Agony.

Every now and then a real gem of a post comes along--this is one of those. 

It summarizes quite nicely the considerations for anyone who would provide assistance to alleged victims of polygraph abuse and it clearly outlines the threshold level for believability and integrity that those victims coming to this site (or to any of us on an individual basis) must meet.  For now and evermore let it be known as "Aunty's test."  You want help, pass it, and you shall receive...

Aunty's test is not a one-shot thing.  You must pass it with every visit to the site and/or with every contact with an individual with some expertise that you seek advice from. 

If you ever fail the test, you never again receive assistance.

Perhaps the site administrator can post a useable version of Aunty's test that must be read with every log on to the site, so that everyone seeking assistance will be aware of it...

I suppose it should be useful to note that Aunty's test (when applied both by those who seek as well as those who provide assistance) will not only have approaching victims self-screen at least their stories (someone who asks for my assistance to break the law, disobey a judge's order, etc. is failing the stupidity test), if not their motivations, but it will also put those who seek to entrap out of business.

[quickfix]

You seem to be asking us to abet you in breaking the terms of your probation and helping you to lie to your PO or to a judge.  Under these circumstances we cannot help you.

What a bunch of hypocrites you all are.  You all offer your advice to those unqualified applicants for all the 3-letter agencies who want to beat the system, and your sympathy to those who didn't, but you're not willing to offer advice to convicted sex offenders, those of probation/parole, and criminal suspects who have to undergo polygraph testing?  What bullshit.  You do it every day on this site.  You just don't know who it is you're helping. 

As for Doug, he was prosecuted, not persecuted.  And he pled guilty because he was guilty.

[getrealalready]

Quickfix,

What a bunch of hypocrites you all are.  You all offer your advice to those unqualified applicants for all the 3-letter agencies

If Aunty and friends had been around at the time and had been more concerned about unqualified applicants and 3 letter agencies, you might not have been hired

[Ex Member]

quickfix, my personal view is that if anyone has a need to lie on a polygraph exam that they should not submit to polygraph testing.

Regarding teaching of countermeasures, I at one time, didn't dream that such activity would be illegal. I always thought that there should be a counterpoise to all things. But obviously such is not the case.

To think that the users of this forum are a crack team of countermeasure experts poised to usurp the justice system is fantasy. I personally would never entertain the thought.

[Wandersmann]

What a bunch of hypocrites you all are.  You all offer your advice to those unqualified applicants for all the 3-letter agencies who want to beat the system, and your sympathy to those who didn't, but you're not willing to offer advice to convicted sex offenders, those of probation/parole, and criminal suspects who have to undergo polygraph testing?  What bullshit.  You do it every day on this site.  You just don't know who it is you're helping.

As for Doug, he was prosecuted, not persecuted.  And he pled guilty because he was guilty.

Quickfix, let me ask a straightforward question.  Do you admit that at least occasionally innocent people get falsely accused by the polygraph and have their lives unjustly ruined ?  If not, do you say that the polygraph is infallible and is never wrong ?

[quickfix]

Yes, occasionally false positives occur, the vast majority of which are in the screening arena.  It's not 100%, but it is also not as antipolygraph types claim "little better than a coin flip".  Lives "ruined"? No, that's bullshit.  No one is "entitled" to government employment or a security clearance.  They are privileges, not rights.  If you don't get hired, your life is not ruined.  You find another job and move on. 

You anti types claim to help those who want to ensure they pass a preemployment poly, then claim you won't help a sex offender pass with the use of CMs.  How noble.  How naïve also, to think that visitors to this site who are rapists/child molesters/sex offenders will not use what they learn here.  Let ME ask YOU a question, one that I have asked George twice with no response:  how would you feel if a rapist successfully used CMs he picked up from this site or from Doug Williams to pass a criminal poly, and the victim of that rape was your wife/daughter/sister?  How would you like it then?

[getrealalready]

Gary Ridgway, the Green River killer, and perhaps the greatest serial killer in American history passed a criminal specific issue polygraph exam in the midst of his continuing to kill--a killing spree reported to involve at least 49 murder victims. 

How do you feel about that, Quickfix? That polygraphy could play a role (a false-negative-polygraph-result assisted killing spree) in causing horrendous harm (even before the origins of antipolygraph.org)---amazing isn't it? 

As antipolygraph.org (George and others) seek to expose the fraud, waste, and abuse of lie detection,  and to minimize and end the the cost of its errors, perhaps it is time for you and your colleagues to recognize the inherent flaws in that which you do...

[Evan S]

quickfix: you are confusing "entitlement" with "right."

Yes, no one is entitled to a government job or a security clearance, but the applicant has the right to be rationally evaluated for the position.

If you allow the use of junk science polygraphy, why not employ voice stress, astrology or palmistry?  The CVSA has been advertised as being 1/3 cheaper than the polygraph.  Maybe the positions of the planets and stars at the time of the applicant's birth to determine eligibility for employment and clearance.  Just think of all the potential savings of money if background investigations were to be eliminated.

[quickfix]

Yes, no one is entitled to a government job or a security clearance, but the applicant has the right to be rationally evaluated for the position.

That's correct;  and the ones who pass their polygraphs are the ones rationally evaluated as "best qualified"

Gary Ridgway, the Green River killer, and perhaps the greatest serial killer in American history passed a criminal specific issue polygraph exam in the midst of his continuing to kill--a killing spree reported to involve at least 49 murder victims.

Ridgway is a psychopath,  and as competent examiners know, a psychopath should never be administered a polygraph.  They are not candidates for valid results. 

[Wandersmann]

Lives "ruined"? No, that's bullshit.  No one is "entitled" to government employment or a security clearance.  They are privileges, not rights.  If you don't get hired, your life is not ruined.  You find another job and move on.

Military officers and people of commensurate background have earned the right not to have their integrity challenged unless there exists specific information that they are dishonest.  Specific as in evidence stronger than a polygraph.   You must be insane if you think that someone who has prepared his or her life for a profession in law enforcement or the military can find any type of commensurate employment anywhere else after being blacklisted by the polygraph.  From CIA Case Officer to managing a McDonalds ?  Is that what you mean ?  Lawyer and judges aren't entitled to bar membership either.  Why don't we polygraph them and take away their entitlement to practice law if they don't pass ?  You may say that national security is too important.  Most of our security leaks, however, come from the privileged few who are so high up they aren't threatened by the polygraph.  What hypocrisy.  The mere fact that there are people in our national security apparatus who get access and aren't held accountable to the same standards (our new royalty) means the entire polygraph program is a joke.   

I'll gladly answer your above question.  If a rapist successfully used CMs to pass a polygraph and then raped my wife/daughter/sister,  I would be even more Anti-Polygraph than ever before.  I wouldn't hold one thing against Doug Williams but I would despise the stupid cops that relied on a polygraph instead of using old-fashioned, proven police work. 

Polygraphers make a living collecting easy stats without having to prove anything while honest cops are busting their butts working day and night to make real cases. 

[getrealalready]

Quickfix,

Ridgway is a psychopath,  and as competent examiners know, a psychopath should never be administered a polygraph.  They are not candidates for valid results.

Although there are operational/academic polygraph believers (e.g., http://data.psych.udel.edu/rsimons/PSYC467/Raskin,%20Hare,%201978.pdf) who would say that a psycho/sociopath can be successfully polygraphed for reasons beyond this thread, the issue is really not psychopath vs. normal, but science vs. no-science.  It is not the least bit surprising that polygraphy got it wrong and that molecular biology (DNA testing) solved the matter...

[xenonman]

quickfix: you are confusing "entitlement" with "right."

Yes, no one is entitled to a government job or a security clearance, but the applicant has the right to be rationally evaluated for the position.

If you allow the use of junk science polygraphy, why not employ voice stress, astrology or palmistry?  The CVSA has been advertised as being 1/3 cheaper than the polygraph.  Maybe the positions of the planets and stars at the time of the applicant's birth to determine eligibility for employment and clearance.  Just think of all the potential savings of money if background investigations were to be eliminated.

In my own experiences, at least, there was certainly no such rational decision-making.  Getting through the BI appears to me to be entirely a matter of chance and luck (which in my case was lacking), not at all related to the applicant's qualifications or abilities!