Jack Trimarco Accuses Joe Genoese of Deception in Fiancée Sheena Morris's Death

[1st4th5thand6th]

I mean, let's face it, when you fail by a lot, you're lying!! Had the results been non-deceptive, I have NO doubt, Genoese, would be singing the tests praises all the way home. That's always the way with losers, isn't it?!

Your statement here implies that you believe that a polygraph "works!" That is, it can tell you conclusively if someone is lying or telling the truth.... That is totally false.  It has always been false and it will always BE false... 

It's 2014 not 1964... wake up man.!

There is no "systemic" way to map wiggles on a polygraph to ANY human physiology...There never has been and never will be.... .

So how can a polygraph have "results" that say you're lying?  IT CAN'T...

How do you draw these conclusions ("He's as guilty as....")  from a box that you can't draw conclusions from?  Your statement is  ridiculous on multiple levels... but reflects the general public's complete ignorance about polygraphs.....

   

 

[Dan Mangan]

[/quote]

Your statement here implies that you believe that a polygraph "works!" That is, it can tell you conclusively if someone is lying or telling the truth.... That is totally false.  It has always been false and it will always BE false... 

  [/quote]

If you will settle for nothing less than perfection, polygraph is clearly a non-starter. But in the real world, where compromise is often a way of life, polygraph testing does a halfway decent job of identifying deceptive subjects in incident-specific tests.

It seems to be less effective when it comes to identifying truth tellers, however.

Still, polygraph can serve as a good investigative guide -- when it's not abused.

For information on polygraph accuracy, I suggest you take a look at the NAS report, or at least the Executive Summary therein, available here:

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=0309084369

Also, polygraph "works" remarkably well by its sheer utility. I concede that the level of collateral damage is high.

Here a fun fact for you, 1st4th5thand6th... In spite of the steady drumbeat of antipolygraph forces, polygraph usage has grown steadily in that past dozen or so years -- not just in the USA, but world wide.

Polygraph testing isn't going anywhere soon, so people calling for its abolition will have a very long wait indeed.

The best available protection against victimization by polygraph -- and there is a great deal of that -- would appear to be consumer education.

As a polygraph practitioner who recognizes the injustice that befalls many a truthful polygraph test taker, I will continue to push for a "bill of rights" for all polygraph test subjects.

Ideally, such a bill of rights -- similar to what has long existed in the health care field -- would be supported by the American Polygraph Association.

It's an uphill climb: In the opinion of this lowly polygraph operator, the APA has run from the bill-of-rights concept like a scalded dog.

[1st4th5thand6th]

Here a fun fact for you, 1st4th5thand6th... In spite of the steady drumbeat of antipolygraph forces, polygraph usage has grown steadily in that past dozen or so years -- not just in the USA, but world wide.

Well Dan, I guess for you and polygraphers everywhere, spreading ignorance and fear all over the world is fun isn't it?...Since polygraphers  will profit from this...more use = more money!.  Good for you!

And after all,  the more others do it the more you can justify your own existence.... Its kind of like all the marijuana users in Georgia, rejoicing over legalization in colorado isn't it?... Since it's legal there it's really not all that bad anywhere else is it?... just needs to be regulated ....

The best available protection against victimization by polygraph -- and there is a great deal of that -- would appear to be consumer education.

Who is the real victim Dan?... the people that are subjected to this non-sense or the companies/governments that "believe" your shuck and jive  and continue pay you for this "expert" analysis?      

Do you think American tax payers are really getting their money's worth?    ...never mind who gives a damn about them...

P.S.  Since you keep mentioning this Bill of Rights... Why don't you show us a draft?  Exactly what do you have in mind?   

[Dan Mangan]

1st4th5thand6th,

1. Go to my web site, www.polygraphman.com, and look at the page called "Recommended Reading." Then, please explain to all of us how I myself am spreading "ignorance and fear."

2. I concede there are polygraph victims on both sides of the aisle -- that is, not just polygraph test takers, but secondary polygraph consumers such as sexual offender treatment providers who blindly buy into the mystique of "polygraph science."

3. Are American taxpayers getting their money's worth? It depends on whose ox is being gored. For example, when an LE or government applicant confesses to disqualifying and often felonious behavior -- even if such admissions stem from the sheer utility of a polygraph "test" -- I would say yes, it's money well spent. But when a highly qualified truthful applicant is DQ'd because of a false-positive result, that's a loss.

4. As to my proposed "bill of rights," here's what I've suggested on several polygraph forums over the past year or so...

To be clear, the following is a verbatim cut-and-paste from what I have posted on several private polygraph forums:

-------start of original bill of rights post -----

"No test is perfect."

And some -- like polygraph -- are far from it.

What of the victims of polygraph tests? I speak of those individuals who suffer false positive results.

Clearly, many such victims would be better off had they never taken the polygraph.

Perhaps prevention -- and fully informed consent -- is the key.

Although much is made of polygraph ethics, its scientific robustness, very favorable accuracy (which is often compared to that of medical tests) and purported court-qualified reliability, there seems to be one thing that is conspicuously absent: a bill of rights for test takers.

It seems to me that if polygraph is to ever gain the respect that has been eluding the field for some 90 years, then a bill of rights would go a long way toward achieving that goal.

I have taken a stab at drafting a list of items to be incorporated into "bill of rights." Here it is:


1. Considerate and respectful treatment from the polygraph examiner throughout all phases of the polygraph process.

2. Knowledge of the name of the examiner who has primary responsibility for conducting the examination, and the names and professional relationships of other examines who may review the test for quality-assurance purposes.

3. Receive, if requested, a statement of qualifications of the examiner, including the number of exams they have run and their own success rate with those exams.

4. Receive, prior to the test, information on the technique to be used and citations (or abstracts) for peer-reviewed research that supports such technique.

5. Receive information, prior to the test, about polygraph theory and the testing process, accuracy estimates as determined by peer-reviewed research, and the prospects for error -- all in terms the subject can understand.

6. Receive, prior to the test, a complete (as possible) list of potential reasons for a false or inconclusive result, including instrument-related (hardware and software) variances that could skew results.

7. Receive, prior to the exam, as much information about the risks, realities and limitations of polygraph testing -- including opposing views from respected academic and legal sources -- the subject may need in order to better give informed consent.

8. The right to refuse the exam, or halt the exam at any stage of the process.

9. The right to be advised as to the reason for the presence of any individual besides the examiner during any portion of the exam process.

10. Receive, if requested, a complete copy of the entire exam, including full-length continuous video, charts, work sheets, score sheets (manual), computerized scoring output, notes, and any background information supplied to the examiner.

11. Confidential treatment of all communications and records pertaining to the examination. Written permission shall be obtained before the polygraph records can be made available to anyone not directly concerned with the immediate case.

12. Mandatory video recording of the entire examination process.


Why a "bill of rights"? There are bills of rights for all types of situations...medical patients, mental health clients, even for consumers of commercial credit.

A bill of rights for examinees would go a long way to demonstrating that polygraph is not the witchcraft that it's often made out to be.

Beyond that, it would help prevent polygraph abuses, and provide victims of false-positive results with a solid platform from which to launch remedial measures.

Again, this list is just a rough draft.


-------end of original bill-of-rights post -----


To whom it may concern, I will again be running for president-elect of the American Polygraph Association in 2015. The bill of rights will be the centerpiece of my platform.

So, 1st46th5thand6th, in light of my open-book approach to polygraph "testing" -- clearly documented on my web site -- and my proposed bill of rights for polygraph test subjects, please tell me where I'm going wrong.

[Ex Member]

1. Considerate and respectful treatment from the polygraph examiner throughout all phases of the polygraph process.

Interesting post Dan. But I think the polygraph community will give you to the kiss your mother-in-law award for this. "Considerate" and "respectful" are in-congruent with post test interrogations and other methods to elicit admissions, which is the underlying goal in most areas of polygraph practice.

[1st4th5thand6th]

Dan,  you mention that you are upfront, open and honest about your polygraph service and this is what separates you from other polygraph services...

Yet I fail to see several key facts about the polygraph disclosed
anywhere on the site.... 

1) There is no scientifically accepted (systemic) way of mapping  physiological responses to lying (nor truth, deception, happy, glad etc)... This means that the wiggles on the polygraph are meaningless...interesting maybe...but meaningless without this scientifically proven "connection"..

2) Given number 1, the polygraph machine is just a prop
    
3) The real goal of the polygraph is to con test subjects into believing that it works so they will confess....

4) Knowledge of the all of the above renders the test useless...

I'm of the opinion, that people who sell goods and services to the public for profit should have a fiduciary duty to disclose all information relevant to that good or service so that the buyer can make an educated informed decision....

YOUR SITE DOESN'T DO THAT!
YOUR PROFESSION DOES NOT DO THAT!

I'm further of the opinion that this type of omission that polygraphers make is very similar to the information that is omitted in used car sales and real estate...

For example, When a car salesman sells a used car with full knowledge that the car was rescued from a flood but deliberately (knowingly, willfully) omits this fact to buyers and sells the car anyway...
Pretty slick huh?   but pure rattlesnake... 

Likewise a person selling his or her home with a newly refinished basement  failing to disclose that the property was flooded prior to the sale and that there is deadly mold growing behind all of those pretty walls etc...  Again... key pieces of information...deliberately omitted to make a sale...  another case of buyer beware...   
          
In my opinion,  as long as all of this is disclosed, clearly upfront...
then there is no reason for anyone to have a problem with it...
But when it's deliberately omitted -paying customer have a right to be PISSED....      



IMHO, polygraphers crave validity, preach credibility and claim "success" while  omitting MASSIVE pieces of vital information from it's customers
and balking at anyone who just happen to know this inconvenient truth and
have the gall to remind them of it...

[Dan Mangan]

1st4th5thand6th,

I disagree with you that I am misleading anyone.

Here is the featured introduction, verbatim, from the Recommended Reading page of my web site (www.polygraphman.com):

"Polygraph testing is a very serious matter.

I strongly recomend that you educate yourself on the risks, realities and limitations of polygraph testing -- as well as the differing opinions on polygraph efficacy -- by visiting the web sites linked on this page."

Below that most concise caveat is a link to www.antipolygraph.org.

Further, underneath the link to that site -- which follows a link to the American Polygraph Association's home page -- appears the following notice:

"A diametrically opposing view on polygraph validity and legitimacy, this site also contains the largest compendium of polygraph information publicly available, as well as an active user forum."  [Again, a reference to www.antipolygraph.org.]

If that isn't fair warning, I don't know what is.

[1st4th5thand6th]

I disagree with you that I am misleading anyone.

Here is the featured introduction, verbatim, from the Recommended Reading page of my web site (www.polygraphman.com):

"Polygraph testing is a very serious matter.

I strongly recomend that you educate yourself on the risks, realities and limitations of polygraph testing -- as well as the differing opinions on polygraph efficacy -- by visiting the web sites linked on this page."

Below that most concise caveat is a link to www.antipolygraph.org.

Further, underneath the link to that site -- which follows a link to the American Polygraph Association's home page -- appears the following notice:

"A diametrically opposing view on polygraph validity and legitimacy, this site also contains the largest compendium of polygraph information publicly available, as well as an active user forum."  [Again, a reference to www.antipolygraph.org.]

If that isn't fair warning, I don't know what is.

Dan, 

IF a used car dealer ad clearly says "refurbished from flood zone" ...that is an entirely different ad than "used - low miles".... 

The former tells the actual truth  (i.e. he's selling shit) the latter deliberately hides it....
IMHO, the latter is horribly misleading...the former is not at all...

Now, can a used car dealership can have a website that has links to the better business bureau, state lemon laws, and even links to websites that tell consumers what to look for in a used car?...Sure!..

All of that is a wonderful gesture..

But, when they know full well a car has been recovered from a flood, and deliberately don't disclose that fact to buyers.... and sell that car ....
That is totally unscrupulous!  (IMHO)

If your process is so good  why do you deliberately refuse to disclose these truths...?     (i.e 1-4 outlined in the previous post)

Is it because you know (just like the car dealer) full well
that you can't sell the product for anything CLOSE to what you are selling it for (if at all)  if you do fully disclose?

Or, is it because you are afraid that it will adversely affect your chance to become president of the APA? 

Dan, if I my speak metaphorically sir...I think you know full well your cars are all flooded, why do you keep selling them as "used'?






   

[Dan Mangan]

1st4th5thand6th,

So, you think I'm holding back critical information from prospective clients about the "test"?

Think again.

Oh wait, I have an idea... Let's find out.

Have a proxy phone me, email me, knock on my office door (call for an appointment, please), whatever...

I will tell the complete truth about the "test" -- informing them all about the risks, realities and limitations of polygraph testing as I know it. (NOTE: Office visits usually require a pre-paid fee.)

To the best of my knowledge, I'm the only examiner, at least in my area (New England), who explains the risks, realities and limitations of polygraph "testing" in real-life, understandable terms.

You game to prove me wrong?

I didn't think so.

BTW, I suspect -- but I'm not sure -- that this very thread is being monitored by almost everybody who's anybody in the APA politics.

Question... Why don't they chime in?

My theory: Polygraph is an indu$try. It's mainly about money, it seems.

Call me for details, if you'd like. Contact info is on my web site.

Meanwhile, polygraph victimization goes on unabated.

The usual disclaimer applies: This is just the opinion of one lowly polygraph operator.

[1st4th5thand6th]

1st4th5thand6th,

So, you think I'm holding back critical information from prospective clients about the "test"?

Think again.

Dan,  I don't see any of this :

1) There is no scientifically accepted (systemic) way of mapping  physiological responses to lying (nor truth, deception, happy, glad etc)... This means that the wiggles on the polygraph are meaningless...interesting maybe...but meaningless without this scientifically proven "connection"..

2) Given number 1, the polygraph machine is just a prop
   
3) The real goal of the polygraph is to con test subjects into believing that it works so they will confess....

4)Clients who have Knowledge of the all of the above renders the test useless...and usually disqualifies them

anywhere on your website....

BUT...(and I apologize for not thinking of this first)
if you're telling me that you verbally describe items 1-4 (or something similar/equivalent)  with your clients BEFORE testing them, then I would certainly concede that you are making a concerted effort to properly and truthfully inform your clients.

So.....Yes or No Dan...Do you explain Items 1-4 to your clients verbally?

If you do...kudos sir...but why not put it on your website in big plain letters?

If you don't ...then  I would be of the opinion that you ARE omitting very relevant pieces of information...

FWIW,  IF you had placed this information clearly on your website then neither I nor anyone else would have any cause to question it... would we? 

I mean...after all,  If the used car ad says "Flooded" - the condition of the car is clearly stated.... right? 

Maybe as a suggestion you can add the above to your website....
under the caption  CAUTION - Buyer beware...
THAT would definitely separate you from EVERY other polygrapher on the face of the earth....
At the very least,  you'd really stand out!

P.S.   thank you for your offer to meet and greet.   
         
But, via items 1-4 above, websites like this one and the hard work of some very good people like Drew, George and Doug,  I know everything I need to know about polygraphy...    
  emails, phone calls, text messages with polygraphers...won't add anything relevant

P.S.S      Call it a hunch...hell even label me psychic....  but I don't think
              you're going to get very far with the APA and that's a shame.
              I am predicting that your opposition will bitch and whine
              that you spend to much time fraternizing with the enemy 
              and elect somebody else....  8-)

[Ex Member]

"A diametrically opposing view on polygraph validity and legitimacy, this site also contains the largest compendium of polygraph information publicly available, as well as an active user forum."[Again, a reference to www.antipolygraph.org.]

If that isn't fair warning, I don't know what is. 

I'll give you that one Dan; you are probably the only one.

[Absurd Rabbit Habit]

It's interesting that whenever anyone disagrees with you lot, you immediately pull the 'ignorant' card. It really is childish, don't you think? No need to answer (though I imagine you will anyway), it was a rhetorical question.

You know, I do believe it's possible for polygraph testing to be fallible, however, that is why it must be given by highly trained professionals in the right environment. I believe, when it's not even a 'close call,' then one has to take that seriously.

I may be ignorant, and no, I don't know a whole lot about polygraph testing, but that doesn't make me ignorant and it doesn't make me any less entitled to my opinion.

Speaking to people like you, will never be a productive, intellectual conversation because you dismiss anyone who has a different opinion to yours.

So when it comes to accusing people of being profoundly ignorant, I don't think you're one to judge me.

Be aware that polygraph operators also read the discussions on this message board. If you wish to remain anonymous, be careful not to post enough personal detail that you could be identified (for example, the exact date of your polygraph examination).

Wow, someone does have a flair for dramatics, don't they?! Seriously, if you believe in something so strongly and are proud enough to stand up for it, why would you want to hide behind?? Everything is a cloak and dagger conspiracy with you people. I could probably say with some certainty that no-one gives a rats ass who you are, and have way more important things to deal with than validating your attention seeking.

Obviously a bad experience has tainted your view of the world, but don't you think there comes a time to move on? If you truly believe posting here will have any change or impact, I think you, your friends and your one-sided diatribes, are vexing and wholly nescient.

Well, this is 5 unproductive minutes of my life I'll never get back and it'll be falling on deaf and dumb ears here. Seriously people, get a life!! 

Arrivederci a tutti... the Proudly Ignorant Absurd Rabbit Habit[/font][/size].   
[/color]

8-) :-? :-/

[Absurd Rabbit Habit]

1st4th5thand6th,

1. Go to my web site, www.polygraphman.com, and look at the page called "Recommended Reading." Then, please explain to all of us how I myself am spreading "ignorance and fear."

2. I concede there are polygraph victims on both sides of the aisle -- that is, not just polygraph test takers, but secondary polygraph consumers such as sexual offender treatment providers who blindly buy into the mystique of "polygraph science."

3. Are American taxpayers getting their money's worth? It depends on whose ox is being gored. For example, when an LE or government applicant confesses to disqualifying and often felonious behavior -- even if such admissions stem from the sheer utility of a polygraph "test" -- I would say yes, it's money well spent. But when a highly qualified truthful applicant is DQ'd because of a false-positive result, that's a loss.

4. As to my proposed "bill of rights," here's what I've suggested on several polygraph forums over the past year or so...

To be clear, the following is a verbatim cut-and-paste from what I have posted on several private polygraph forums:

-------start of original bill of rights post -----

"No test is perfect."

And some -- like polygraph -- are far from it.

What of the victims of polygraph tests? I speak of those individuals who suffer false positive results.

Clearly, many such victims would be better off had they never taken the polygraph.

Perhaps prevention -- and fully informed consent -- is the key.

Although much is made of polygraph ethics, its scientific robustness, very favorable accuracy (which is often compared to that of medical tests) and purported court-qualified reliability, there seems to be one thing that is conspicuously absent: a bill of rights for test takers.

It seems to me that if polygraph is to ever gain the respect that has been eluding the field for some 90 years, then a bill of rights would go a long way toward achieving that goal.

I have taken a stab at drafting a list of items to be incorporated into "bill of rights." Here it is:


1. Considerate and respectful treatment from the polygraph examiner throughout all phases of the polygraph process.

2. Knowledge of the name of the examiner who has primary responsibility for conducting the examination, and the names and professional relationships of other examines who may review the test for quality-assurance purposes.

3. Receive, if requested, a statement of qualifications of the examiner, including the number of exams they have run and their own success rate with those exams.

4. Receive, prior to the test, information on the technique to be used and citations (or abstracts) for peer-reviewed research that supports such technique.

5. Receive information, prior to the test, about polygraph theory and the testing process, accuracy estimates as determined by peer-reviewed research, and the prospects for error -- all in terms the subject can understand.

6. Receive, prior to the test, a complete (as possible) list of potential reasons for a false or inconclusive result, including instrument-related (hardware and software) variances that could skew results.

7. Receive, prior to the exam, as much information about the risks, realities and limitations of polygraph testing -- including opposing views from respected academic and legal sources -- the subject may need in order to better give informed consent.

8. The right to refuse the exam, or halt the exam at any stage of the process.

9. The right to be advised as to the reason for the presence of any individual besides the examiner during any portion of the exam process.

10. Receive, if requested, a complete copy of the entire exam, including full-length continuous video, charts, work sheets, score sheets (manual), computerized scoring output, notes, and any background information supplied to the examiner.

11. Confidential treatment of all communications and records pertaining to the examination. Written permission shall be obtained before the polygraph records can be made available to anyone not directly concerned with the immediate case.

12. Mandatory video recording of the entire examination process.


Why a "bill of rights"? There are bills of rights for all types of situations...medical patients, mental health clients, even for consumers of commercial credit.

A bill of rights for examinees would go a long way to demonstrating that polygraph is not the witchcraft that it's often made out to be.

Beyond that, it would help prevent polygraph abuses, and provide victims of false-positive results with a solid platform from which to launch remedial measures.

Again, this list is just a rough draft.


-------end of original bill-of-rights post -----


To whom it may concern, I will again be running for president-elect of the American Polygraph Association in 2015. The bill of rights will be the centerpiece of my platform.

So, 1st46th5thand6th, in light of my open-book approach to polygraph "testing" -- clearly documented on my web site -- and my proposed bill of rights for polygraph test subjects, please tell me where I'm going wrong.

AWESOME!! Wonderful to meet a fellow ignorant!!
[/size][/font]

[Ex Member]

Well, this is 5 unproductive minutes of my life

No arguments from me on this one.

Yes, you are entitled to your opinion. But we are also entitled to our opinion on your opinion. When you make statements like this:

"I mean, let's face it, when you fail by a lot, you're lying!!"

It does indeed reflect a profound ignorance of what polygraphy is. I recommend you read TLBTLD instead of composing sophomoric posts peppered with emoticons.

[Absurd Rabbit Habit]

Oh, did my post ruffle one's feathers?

Given I'm dealing with an imbecilic twats (you), I thought emoticons would be right up your childish alley!!

You're not on this site looking to educate anyone or even hold a mature debate. It's your way or no way! If you actually extracted your head from your ass occasionally, you'd get that a lot of people are for the most part, agreeing with a lot of what the posters are stating (not you). Unlike them, you only amuse yourself by jumping in with your two cents worth to amuse nobody but yourself. There's no depth, logic or maturity to any of your replies.

Get off the computer, your mom's calling you for dinner you profoundly ignorant hick!!

  :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/