Inconclusive results

[gorgikla22]

    I recently joined this website to tell everyone about my experience when i was polygraphed and the amount of hate i have towards this screening proccess. I dont know about other people but about seven months ago i applied to become a police officer in an L.A county department but was refused acceptance when i failed to pass my polygraph when i told the truth.
   I was wondering if anyone could tell me why this department did what they did to me after i did everything that was asked about me. As a police officer recruite i took my first polygraph at intercept inc. After i took my polygraph the poligrapher interigated me for about two hours trying to get me to admit to something i had not done...He was accusing me of lying on the question,"have you commited a serious undisclosed crime?" my answer was no.... like anything other applicant im not perfect... but i never did anything in my past that was past stealing chewing gum which i told them about... unfurtunatley since i didnt pass and since i didnt have anything to tell the polygrapher my test was deemed inconclusive even after he tried to make me admit to something.
   After two weeks of waiting my background investigater called me in and conducted his own interrigation, and he then asked me at the end to take a second polygraph since my first was inconclusive. After i took this polygraph i was certain that this method of testing a persons credibility was complete bull. I told the truth but came out a "deceiver".... actually i came out to be 97% deceiving after my second polygraph which i was then disqualified. After another two weeks i received a letter in the mail that formally anounced that i was no longer in the highering process becuase of background issues. I then appealed this disqualification and was granted one more polygraph which i then came out to be inconclusive agian.
   I seriously dont know what to say anymore but im really upset. I scored the highest on the written test, PAT, and the Oral to be first on the hiring list until this stupid polygraph. I was wondering if someone could tell me what an inconclusive test result actually means, and if they disqualify me becuase of that, and also can they overlook a polygraph result if they really wanted to. If someone could answer my question and tell me what my experience really met i would appreciate it becuase i have another polygraph test with a different agency next month and i dont want to fail it when im telling the truth.

[George W. Maschke]

An "inconclusive" result means that your reactions to relevant questions were about as strong as your reactions to the so-called "control" questions. The key to passing is to show stronger reactions to the "control" questions than to the relevant questions. Polygraph "testing" has no scientific basis, and the erroneous results do not mean that there is anything wrong with you. It is polygraphy that is flawed. For more on polygraph procedure, and how to reduce the risk of a false positive on your upcoming polygraph examination, see Chapters 3 & 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.

To address your other question, yes, agencies sometimes do play fast and loose with polygraph results. For example, Roy Ortiz, the head of the LAPD's polygraph unit, was credibly accused of altering polygraph results. This scandal was successfully swept under the rug by the LAPD.

Note also that Ed Gelb, who operates Intercept Inc. and has a contract to provide polygraph services to the Long Beach Police Department, is fraudulently passing himself off as a Ph.D. in marketing his firm's services. However, the American Polygraph Association doesn't consider this to be an ethics violation.

[gorgikla22]

Ed Gelb was the guy i had my last polygraph with. Although i don't like any of those polygraphers he was the most professional out of all them. There was this one polygrapher from L.A.P.D that was privately contracted with the agency that i was applying for who gave me a really hard time. One thing that i must say is that these polygraphers are very persistent and some can be even hard to talk to..... the first polygrapher that i went to accused me of using countermeasures..... To be honest I had no clue what the word counter measure meant until my background investigator informed of the accusation... which ultimatley made me go and research to see what i had done from that lead me to this point. I have one other question.... If your baseline for the control questions and the relevant questions are about the same, then shouldn't they pass you since there's no difference... i would have thought that if your lying you would show a bigger more obvious reaction to a question? Also if it wouldn't be of any trouble i would like to know why i would be declared 97% deceiving once and then inconclusive two other times.

[George W. Maschke]

...the first polygrapher that i went to accused me of using countermeasures..... To be honest I had no clue what the word counter measure meant until my background investigator informed of the accusation... which ultimatley made me go and research to see what i had done from that lead me to this point.

I, too, was falsely accused of using countermeasures by a polygraph operator (Ervin Youngblood, LAPD). Like you, at the time, I didn't even know what polygraph countermeasures are. You can read more about my polygraph experience here.

I have one other question.... If your baseline for the control questions and the relevant questions are about the same, then shouldn't they pass you since there's no difference... i would have thought that if your lying you would show a bigger more obvious reaction to a question?

Well, that's not the way it works. If the reactions are about the same, it's deemed "inconclusive."

Also if it wouldn't be of any trouble i would like to know why i would be declared 97% deceiving once and then inconclusive two other times.

Note that while there are computerized scoring algorithms that purport to represent with mathematical precision the likelihood that an examinee is truthful or deceptive, such claims are unfounded, and were recognized as such by the National Academy of Sciences in its comprensive research review, The Polygraph and Lie Detection (see Appendix F).

As for how you could fail once and come up inconclusive twice, ask yourself: would you be surprised if you shook a Magic 8-Ball and the answers returned were not all the same? Or if you flipped a coin three times and the outcome was not each time the same? One should not be surprised when an invalid test yields inaccurate results.

[gorgikla22]

Im not sure but i think that we had the same polygrapher.....Ervin Youngblood.... Was he a black male? if it was, he gave me the hardest time in the world. From the beginning of my test he was telling me that i was lying, using different types of counter measures to manipulate the polygraph....he too interrigated me trying to get me to admit to something when there was nothing to tell him.

[George W. Maschke]

Im not sure but i think that we had the same polygrapher.....Ervin Youngblood.... Was he a black male? if it was, he gave me the hardest time in the world. From the beginning of my test he was telling me that i was lying, using different types of counter measures to manipulate the polygraph....he too interrigated me trying to get me to admit to something when there was nothing to tell him.

That is indeed the very same Ervin Youngblood who angrily (but falsely) accused me of using countermeasures when I took my polygraph for the Anti-Terrorist Division.

[gorgikla22]

Wow i cant believe he did that to you too. You know for me it was really hard to understand that i would fail something that the government heavily relies on. When i first applied with my agency the only problem i thought i would have ever had was passing the oral test since i heard that over 75% of the applicants fail that test, but when i scored the highest among all the applicants i thought it would be a breeze until the academy since i had nothing in my background that was bad nor did i have to lie about something. I have wanted to ask you something, have you worked with another agency since you applied with L.A.P.D or will anyother department hire you since they know your opinion about the polygraph and knowledge to beat it.

[George W. Maschke]

I have not applied for any law enforcement positions since that time, though I continued to serve as a reserve military intelligence officer for some time afterwards. As you'll see toward the end of my statement, in 2001, the 902nd Military Intelligence Group's polygraph unit did not want to polygraph me because of my opinion regarding polygraphy.

[gorgikla22]

I wanted to ask you one more thing, i was wondering if you could give me some advice for my next polygraph.

[George W. Maschke]

I wanted to ask you one more thing, i was wondering if you could give me some advice for my next polygraph.

As I mentioned earlier, I suggest that you read through The Lie Behind the Lie Detector. You might consider adopting the "complete honesty" approach described in Chapter 4. Because of your past experience with the polygraph (which you'll be asked about), any polygrapher is going to have a hard time believing that you haven't researched polygraphy. While there is little chance that telling the polygrapher that you've read about polygraph procedure and countermeasures will result in the polygraph requirement being waived, your candor might be received as an indication of your intent to answer relevant questions truthfully.

[Mark johnson]

Hey guys...I have a similar problem. I was accused of having non-consensual relations with a girl based on her consumption of alcohol. I certainly did feel she was coherent enough to consent, although she said she does not recall anything. My school sent me to a counseling center who refereed me to another guy who is a former polygraphist and a MSW. He recommended a polygraph with another man, so with nothing to lose but my higher education, I quickly said yes.

I was given a full disclosure about everything in my sexual history. Then the test was given. Apparently both men thought I was forthright, honest, and had nothing to hide (obviously they are correct because if I lie to them, I could get kicked out of school.

My first test was a few months ago, and I told the truth on every question, again because if I lie, I'm screwed. The test came back inconclusive and like gorg, I was interrogated and he kept asking, why are you not being truthful? I said I don't know what to tell you because I've told you everything. He said well you can tell me the truth, and it went on like that for a while.

Needless to say, without another test, I would get decent report to my school but as of now, they feel the case is not yet done until I complete another test which is this Thursday. This is a crime if you ask me.

[T.M. Cullen]

Needless to say, without another test, I would get decent report to my school but as of now, they feel the case is not yet done until I complete another test which is this Thursday. This is a crime if you ask me.

I've never heard of a school requiring a polygraph test.  Have you talk to a lawyer?  Is this in the U.S. ?

You have a legal right to refuse to take a polygraph test.  If they ask, tell them i you discovered that the polygraph has no scientific basis and you are no longer willing to participate in such a bogus process..  Your first hand experience with the polygraph should now convince you of that.

As you have discovered, a criminal polygraph test is nothing more than an excuse for law enforcement to interrogate you, under duress, WITHOUT legal representation present.  People volunteer for it because, like most, they believe in the popular myth that the polygraph can detect deception.  I doesn't.  DO NOT MAKE ANY ADMISSIONS!  Insist on legal representation.

The police will probably give you a hard time and accuse you of trying to hide something.  Emphasize that you now know the truth about the polygraph.  Ask if the test in mandatory or VOLUNTARY.  If voluntary, ask him if he is trying to intimidate you, and abridge your rights.

Have you been formally charged with anything?

If your school give you a hard time, refer them to some of the reference materials available at this site.

Incidently, it is EXTREMELY important you do not self incriminate yourself during any future polygraph interrogation if the polygraph operator insists the machine is showing deception.  Again, it can't do that.  They are just trying to force some sort of  confession out of you even though you might be innocent and telling the truth.  We have laws in this country against self incrimination.

 You are under NO OBLIGATION to talk to the police unless you have been  formally charged.  CONSULT AN ATTORNEY BEFORE RETESTING!!!!  Cancel the test if necessary.  Better yet, have your attorney do it!

TC

[Mark johnson]

The reason this is going on is because I was referred by the school to a counseling center who referred me to these people. THIS IS STRICTLY THROUGH THE SCHOOL, no law enforcement. It is a weird way to go about it but either way, the school wanted me to follow through with it. I feel like the school administrators are a bit wary about this, and regardless of the outcome of the test, I'm hoping they will take action based on how I was with the people, not with the test.

If I don't go through with this test, it would further drag out this situation, and possibly look to my guilt, not complying with the schools wishes, and be suspended. But if I do take it and have another inconclusive or a fail, I could still be kept at school with certain sanctions I suppose. I would love to tell the school that this test really means nothing to me but at the same time they ordered me to do something and I feel like if I show I am going through the steps to get everything done, they will see that I am really trying to clear my name.

[T.M. Cullen]

A counseling center MSW referring you to a polygrapher?  That doesn't sound like "counselling" to me.  So the government and law enforcement is not involved?  I still think taking the test is voluntary.  The counselor may be under the impression that the polygraph is accurate.  Show him/her the NAS report.  I don't think a counselor can force you to take a polygraph.  How old are you?  Are you a legal adult?   If not, are your parents or legal guardian involved?

If you do retest, at least now you know what it is all about.  The machine can not detect whether you are telling the truth or not.  Polygraphers want you to disbelieve your own mind.  It's all about intimidating you with the machine to get you to say what THEY want to hear.  Don't fall for it.  Just tell the truth.  If they continue to accuse you of lying when you aren't, there is not much you can do about it.

If the polygraph operator continues to  accuse you of lying based on the machine, tell them there is really nothing you can do about that.  You don't believe it, and doubt the test is valid.  You are telling the truth, and you are sticking to your story.  If the squiggle marks on their machine says you are lying, so be it.  You're not going to be intimidated by a machine.   But DO NOT MAKE ADMISSIONS because of what the squiggly marks are divining.  It is bogus.

I am assuming you are telling the truth about fully disclosing whatever they wanted you to disclose.  If you are lying, and  actually "date raped" a girl, I have no pity for you!

I still think you should consult an attorney.  You may have a legal case against the school if they give you the boot based on a polygraph test.   Did you sign any of your rights away?  You might consider giving your school authorities a copy of the NAS report  (can be downloaded from the home page of this website).  They may not be aware that this prestigious scientific body has concluded that the polygraph is not a scientifically valid test.


TC

[George W. Maschke]

Actually, the NAS report is not available for download from AntiPolygraph.org. However, it may be read on-line here:

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=0309084369

A more succinct refutation of polygraphy is available in the form of William G. Iacono's article, "Forensic 'Lie Detection': Procedures Without Scientific Basis," which may be viewed and printed out here:

https://antipolygraph.org/articles/article-018.shtml